The Truth About Ethanol

[SVT Cobra]

Old article from last summer's car and driver, and I am amazed at some of the wealth of misinformation that is still spread around, so I figured I'd scan it.

Edumacate urselves.



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Moved to the garage to keep this topic from going political.
AnandTech Moderator Evadman

 

[Cattlegod]

cliffs?

 

[SirStev0]

Cliffs : Ethanol is a good idea.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: SirStev0
Cliffs : Ethanol is a good idea.

Ummm NFW

God I wish we had user ratings.

 

[Jeff7]

Web-version


Corn-based ethanol just strikes me as a bad idea. The seeds are used for ethanol, which seems inefficient. Prairie grass is better suited - it's hardier, and the whole plant can be used.

I think that ethanol's main benefits are that it's renewable, and it could be produced domestically. But it seems evident that we can't produce enough of it.
Unfortunately, I see hydrogen as being the best bet for most of our energy needs in the future. The part that's unfortunate is that it's all too far off. Hydrogen-fueled cars need a clean, cheap source of hydrogen. This could possibly be provided by fusion power plants, which would simply use electrolysis to produce hydrogen from water. But of course, commercial fusion reactors are decades away.

Either way, the world wants energy, and our current means of supplying it have a host of detrimental environmental consequences. And it is going to cost a lot of money to find a solution. We've had our free ride long enough - just dig into the ground and get energy from what we find, and ignore what happens when it's burned. Now it's finally catching up to us. People complain that XYZ Solution to the problem will cost billions of dollars (more mass transit, more renewable energy sources, hydrogen fuel distribution networks), but I think that the cost is one thing that we won't be able to get around. If we're able to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on warfare, I think the decision to spend hundreds of billions on projects to provide for our future energy needs would be a no-brainer.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: SirStev0
Cliffs : Ethanol is a good idea.

Ethanol is a fine idea if:

1. You build your own car with an engine specifically designed to utilize ethanol efficiently

2. You make your own ethanol using a pressure cooker style still that can also use solar power

3. You only drive your car far enough away from home to have enough fuel to return and fill up again

 

[HombrePequeno]

We really do need to stop supporting the corn lobby. We also need to drop our large tariff and start importing the more efficient Brazilian ethanol.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
We really do need to stop supporting the corn lobby. We also need to drop our large tariff and start importing the more efficient Brazilian ethanol.

Yes let's go overseas again for our energy sources...and ethanol is ethanol, the efficiency is how in how they make it.

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: SirStev0
Cliffs : Ethanol is a good idea.

Ethanol is a fine idea if:

1. You build your own car with an engine specifically designed to utilize ethanol efficiently

2. You make your own ethanol using a pressure cooker style still that can also use solar power

3. You only drive your car far enough away from home to have enough fuel to return and fill up again

The Brazilian's seem to do pretty good.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: SVT Cobra

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
We really do need to stop supporting the corn lobby. We also need to drop our large tariff and start importing the more efficient Brazilian ethanol.

Yes let's go overseas again for our energy sources...and ethanol is ethanol, the efficiency is how in how they make it.

Yes it is but sugar would not grow very well here for the most part. If you want a homegrown energy source, ethanol is not the way to go. Biodiesel would be a much better option.

 

[Evadman]

Efficency of making ethanol blows. It is not a viable fuel until we have renewable source of power, like fusion, to make ethanol and by that time, we will proably have a viable battery or fuel cell as a power producer. the amount of energy taken to covert raw crude oil to usable fuel is infinitesimal compared to ethanol.

Short term (next 50 years or so) should be biodiesel, and we should be spending the ethanol money on either biodiesel or fuel cells/batteries/motors. We should be eating the corn, or eating the animals that eat the corn.

<edit>
I didn't read the article that SVT Cobra posted. I will later. I hope it says the same thing or has some better arguments against Ethanol.

 

[Queasy]

You can thank the government mandated ethanol additive partially for the increase in gasoline prices. It has also affected the price of corn and dairy product negatively.

There's no way we could produce enough corn to move to ethanol completely...even if we committed all farm land to the growth of corn.

 

[MrPickins]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Unfortunately, I see hydrogen as being the best bet for most of our energy needs in the future. The part that's unfortunate is that it's all too far off. Hydrogen-fueled cars need a clean, cheap source of hydrogen. This could possibly be provided by fusion power plants, which would simply use electrolysis to produce hydrogen from water. But of course, commercial fusion reactors are decades away.

We could do the same thing with fission plants. The problem with H2 is in distribution.

 

[Analog]

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2071946&enterthread=y

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: Evadman
Efficency of making ethanol blows. It is not a viable fuel until we have renewable source of power, like fusion, to make ethanol and by that time, we will proably have a viable battery or fuel cell as a power producer. the amount of energy taken to covert raw crude oil to usable fuel is infinitesimal compared to ethanol.

Short term (next 50 years or so) should be biodiesel, and we should be spending the ethanol money on either biodiesel or fuel cells/batteries/motors. We should be eating the corn, or eating the animals that eat the corn.

<edit>
I didn't read the article that SVT Cobra posted. I will later. I hope it says the same thing or has some better arguments against Ethanol.

You pretty much summed the article up perfectly.

 

[frostedflakes]

As mentioned Brazil's ethanol industry seems to be pretty successful based on what I've read. Corn ethanol definitely isn't the way to go, though. There are much more efficient biomasses for ethanol, such as switchgrass.

Also, although ethanol has a lower energy density than gasoline, it has certain properties that allow it to be burned more efficiently than gasoline. For example, it has a much higher octane (IIRC one of its current uses in gasoline is as an octane increaser), allowing for it to be run at a considerably higher compression ratio than normal gas. In a study (done by the EPA, I believe) an engine *optimized* for ethanol (as opposed to current E85 engines, which are optimized for gas but have a few minor tweaks so that they work w/ethanol) was able to achieve significantly better fuel economy than a gas engine, it was up in the 40-45MPG range I believe.

So yeah, ethanol and biodiesel may have some hurtles to clear before becoming a replacement for gasoline, but considering our currently available technologies and infrastructure, I think they are our best alternatives.

 

[FoBoT]

i read the whole thing
:thumbsup:

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
As mentioned Brazil's ethanol industry seems to be pretty successful based on what I've read. Corn ethanol definitely isn't the way to go, though. There are much more efficient biomasses for ethanol, such as switchgrass.

Also, although ethanol has a lower energy density than gasoline, it has certain properties that allow it to be burned more efficiently than gasoline. For example, it has a much higher octane (IIRC one of its current uses in gasoline is as an octane increaser), allowing for it to be run at a considerably higher compression ratio than normal gas. In a study (done by the EPA, I believe) an engine *optimized* for ethanol (as opposed to current E85 engines, which are optimized for gas but have a few minor tweaks so that they work w/ethanol) was able to achieve significantly better fuel economy than a gas engine, it was up in the 40-45MPG range I believe.

So yeah, ethanol and biodiesel may have some hurtles to clear before becoming a replacement for gasoline, but considering our currently available technologies and infrastructure, I think they are our best alternatives.

Well as I said once before, I read an article that said the cost to produce ethanol in the US is twice the cost to import ethanol from places like Brazil.
Economically it makes no sense for the end consumer, and it also messes around with the corn supply for everything else (dairy, food, etc. Corn starch is also added to other food products)

 

[Gillbot]

i'm all for a fully electric car but as they become more mainstream, power costs will skyrocket to offset the losses in oil profits. Not to mention the technology just isn't viable yet. Until they get a solid 300+ miles per charge, they just aren't a viable source for the average driver.

 

[RollWave]

If brazil makes it easily, why cant we? I think there is plenty of land in the midwest to grow the kind of corn necessary but until recently ethanol never really garnered any support.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: RollWave
If brazil makes it easily, why cant we? I think there is plenty of land in the midwest to grow the kind of corn necessary but until recently ethanol never really garnered any support.

We can't make it easily because we use corn which is very inefficient for ethanol production. Brazil makes it very easily because they have the perfect climate to grow sugar cane which is a hell of a lot better source for ethanol than corn is.

 

[AgentJean]

Butanol is the way to go. Any organic mass can be fermented into butanol. From corn husks, to algae, to left over whey from yogurt processing. The process was invented in the 1920s

Butanol is so simular to gasoline you can run it in your car without any modifications. It has twice the engery of ethanol and only slightly less than gas. Butanol does not suffer from water contamination issues like ethanol and can be transported in the existing gasoline pipelines. Ethanol must be trucked.

Ethanol burns eddible food stock. Butanol burns bio-waste. Next time you ethanol lovers fill up your oversized and unncessary SUV that you're burning FOOD.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: RollWave
If brazil makes it easily, why cant we? I think there is plenty of land in the midwest to grow the kind of corn necessary but until recently ethanol never really garnered any support.

1. read the article it explains it to you...there is not enough land in the midwest, and brzil can make it cheap...well read the article it is complicated

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: RollWave
If brazil makes it easily, why cant we? I think there is plenty of land in the midwest to grow the kind of corn necessary but until recently ethanol never really garnered any support.

We can't make it easily because we use corn which is very inefficient for ethanol production. Brazil makes it very easily because they have the perfect climate to grow sugar cane which is a hell of a lot better source for ethanol than corn is.

Additionally, our demand for car fuel is way higher than that of Brazil. We could literally turn all of our farmland over to corn production and still wouldn't be able to produce enough ethanol to power our vehicles if the fuel was ethanol alone.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: RollWave
If brazil makes it easily, why cant we? I think there is plenty of land in the midwest to grow the kind of corn necessary but until recently ethanol never really garnered any support.

We can't make it easily because we use corn which is very inefficient for ethanol production. Brazil makes it very easily because they have the perfect climate to grow sugar cane which is a hell of a lot better source for ethanol than corn is.

Additionally, our demand for car fuel is way higher than that of Brazil. We could literally turn all of our farmland over to corn production and still wouldn't be able to produce enough ethanol to power our vehicles if the fuel was ethanol alone.

Which is why we need to push more toward biodiesel. Biodiesel from algae seems very promising and could possibly produce a decent chunk of our energy needs. Unfortunately we still don't have very many diesel cars. Hopefully one of them like the diesel Accord that'll be coming out soon will be successful.