The Truth About Engineering?

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: apac
No fun? At UC Boulder, even the engineers drink!

"Do Problem number one from page 3423 of your advanced math textbook class and turn it in to me in 5 minutes"

SHOT #1 : 151

"Now that I see most of you are struggling and the one genius in class is done, do problems number one through fifthteen from page 32423 of your advanced math textbook class and turn them in to me in twnty minutes minutes"

SHOT #2: Jack and coke


and repeat as needed...

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Codewiz

Originally posted by: LordFortius
People are always telling me that it's very easy for engineers to make the transition from engineering to business/management, but I just don't see it... especially the people who apparently get MBA's courtesy of the company.

At least where I work, promotion opportunities are very rare. There might be openings for 3 engineers to become first level managers every 2 years. When it does happen, there are dozens of people all jockying for the same position, and who ends up getting the spot is really just a matter of favoritism.

Once one becomes a first level manager, once can expect a very slow ascent up the ladder. If the company does offer to pay to educate you somewhere, it will be once you've made it a few levels further up (many years in the future) and will probably be an executive mba program at most, as opposed to a real one.

Well where I work, basically everyone eventually becomes management unless the person has a desire to stay an engineer. We all start as engineers. Then everyone progresses up the chain. From project engineer to project leads, to project managers, to program managers, to department managers.

I have been employeed at this company for 1 year and I am already a project lead. They are looking to get me more involved iwth project management. I just don't want that responsibility at this time. I haven't been an engineer long enough in my mind.

sweet.

 

[MetalMat]

This is the way I put, and it may sound like a bad idea but whatever.

I wanna make money, and I wanted a challenge in college. I like computer tech stuff so I choose computer engineering in 2000, I am graduating next spring 2005. Case closed.

 

[AFB]

Originally posted by: Ameesh

As an engineer
1) you will miss out on a lot of fun in college, forsaking some of the best years of your life.
2) you will miss the best chance you'll have to enrich your mind in a variety of academic areas
3) you will be limited to working in a few major cities.
4) the hours will be excessively long
5) you will be surrounded primarily be men at work
6) many if not most of your coworkers are going to be foreigners
7) your salary will top out early and those liberal-arts majors will catch and pass you
8) by the time you're in your 30's you will be worried about keeping a job
9) you're NOT going to get into management
10) the long-term outlook for engineers is dismal

1) I had plenty of fun, most of my friends were also in hard sciences so our free time coincided a lot
2) I was able to learn about all the subjects i cared too, if I want to learn about something new i usually just geta book and read, you don't need to be in college to do that
3) I could probably telecommute from wherever i lived, I choose to live near a big city because I like being near an urban environment
4) my hours are what i make them, i usually go in at 11 am and leave around 6pm
5) there are a lot of women at my workplace but in previous jobs iw ould agree to that, but i don't see how thats a pro or con
6) wtf does that mean?
7) i came out of college making $75K a year with stock options and a hefty signing bonus, most liberal arts majors wont make even close to that after 10 years let alone ever.
8) LMAO
9) almost all the management at microsoft and amazon.com all came from an engineering background and were once hands on engineers creating the products
10) as opposed to what, Starbucks Barrista?


I don't see any valid points on that list

LMAO @ #10

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: Codewiz

Originally posted by: LordFortius
People are always telling me that it's very easy for engineers to make the transition from engineering to business/management, but I just don't see it... especially the people who apparently get MBA's courtesy of the company.

At least where I work, promotion opportunities are very rare. There might be openings for 3 engineers to become first level managers every 2 years. When it does happen, there are dozens of people all jockying for the same position, and who ends up getting the spot is really just a matter of favoritism.

Once one becomes a first level manager, once can expect a very slow ascent up the ladder. If the company does offer to pay to educate you somewhere, it will be once you've made it a few levels further up (many years in the future) and will probably be an executive mba program at most, as opposed to a real one.

Well where I work, basically everyone eventually becomes management unless the person has a desire to stay an engineer. We all start as engineers. Then everyone progresses up the chain. From project engineer to project leads, to project managers, to program managers, to department managers.

I have been employeed at this company for 1 year and I am already a project lead. They are looking to get me more involved iwth project management. I just don't want that responsibility at this time. I haven't been an engineer long enough in my mind.

Yea, to often the problem is that a company doesn't have a well defined technical career path that doesn't include becoming management. Something to ask about in interviews.

 

[PCHPlayer]

As an engineer
1) you will miss out on a lot of fun in college, forsaking some of the best years of your life.
2) you will miss the best chance you'll have to enrich your mind in a variety of academic areas
3) you will be limited to working in a few major cities.
4) the hours will be excessively long
5) you will be surrounded primarily be men at work
6) many if not most of your coworkers are going to be foreigners
7) your salary will top out early and those liberal-arts majors will catch and pass you
8) by the time you're in your 30's you will be worried about keeping a job
9) you're NOT going to get into management
10) the long-term outlook for engineers is dismal

1 - I don't think so. Those pre-med guys had it the worst.
2 - That's up to the individual. I took many courses that were not engineering related
3 - Yeah so what? Many major cities are a blast. Where would you rather live in your 20's L.A. or Des Moines?
4 - Yes there are times when you need to put in the extra time, but what high paying job doesn't require some extra time.
5 - Yes that can be the case. So what? You shouldn't be fishing off the company pier anyway. That is what a social life is for.
6 - So what? Yes there can be a language barrier, but with time that solves itself.
7 - Don't think so. Sure there are those people that will pass you by, but I don't think an English Lit. major who got a job as a teach will ever catch up.
8 - No way. Of course I work in the defense industry where they value experience.
9 - Some will, some won't. Many engineers either do not want to manage or do not have the personality to manage. Why is this different from any other career?
10 - There will always be a need for engineers. The level of demand will ebb and flow, but the demand will always be there.

Obviously the guy who wrote this needed to get a life instead of concentrating his entire life on school and career.

 

[beer]

People that think the job market for EEs suck are the ones that are so socially inept that everyone sees right through them. That is all.

 

[Ranger X]

I'll try and be fair to the OP.

1) you will miss out on a lot of fun in college, forsaking some of the best years of your life.

Actually this all depends. While many engineers still made time to party, others didn't because they're simply not intrigued by that concept. And then there are those who aren't socially capable of partying .. and in engineering, that is where most of these people reside.

2) you will miss the best chance you'll have to enrich your mind in a variety of academic areas

Again, it depends. The question here is, do you want to graduate in time or graduate when you're ready to graduate? It's true that many engineering curriculums are strict in what engineering majors can take throughout his or her time at the college. If one's goal is to graduate as soon as possible, I cannot see this person taking the courses he/she desires to take that aren't part of the curriculum. I, personally, was able to graduate when I wanted and I took classes that caught my interest. At the college where I attended, we were required to take 3 undergraduate courses in writing + a technical writing class. Most colleges only require 1 undergraduate course + a technical writing class.

3) you will be limited to working in a few major cities.

Not limited but it is difficult for those working out in the boonies to find work that fit their majors. It is easier to find work in large cities but finding engineering work in small cities is still possible.

4) the hours will be excessively long

Depends on the company. I work 40 hours and no more. I know many who work 60+ hours a week.

5) you will be surrounded primarily be men at work

Very true. Doesn't look like anyone disagreed with this statement.

6) many if not most of your coworkers are going to be foreigners

Most of them are 1.5'ers whom have immigrated to this country and was educated here. I've known many that smell funny so this is partially true. Personally, I would hate working in a company where everyone was Caucasian.

7) your salary will top out early and those liberal-arts majors will catch and pass you

I don't know about everyone else but I feel it. Pay does flat out but the question is, are you happy with the max pay?

8) by the time you're in your 30's you will be worried about keeping a job

Partially true. Maybe in your mid to late 30's and on but that depends on how you spent the time at your company in the past. Did you make yourself valuable or were you just going through the motions? The important ones will be the last to go while the others will not.

9) you're NOT going to get into management

Most likely not (I don't care what anyone says). The only way these positions open up is when someone retires or gets demoted (rare), or when a new department opens up.

10) the long-term outlook for engineers is dismal

In software, yes. One word: India.

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: beer
People that think the job market for EEs suck are the ones that are so socially inept that everyone sees right through them. That is all.

They must be technically inept as well. Social ineptness isn't generally a big strike against you as an engineer as far as I can tell. It's practically expected

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: Armitage

Originally posted by: beer
People that think the job market for EEs suck are the ones that are so socially inept that everyone sees right through them. That is all.

They must be technically inept as well. Social ineptness isn't generally a big strike against you as an engineer as far as I can tell. It's practically expected

I sit in my classes and just randomly talk to people and most of them look like a deer in headlights. I can't believe that people have lived the better part of twenty years not without the ability to at least MEET OTHER PEOPLE. It's just pathetic and I have no respect for people who graduate with 4.0s and can't find jobs, and then blame the economy. It's just the blame game with elitists.

 

[da loser]

Originally posted by: MrBond

Originally posted by: LordFortius
From what I know, the author is a 30-something EE in the bay area.

Yeah, no kidding. Maybe the article should be "The Truth about Electrical Engineering".

What's nice about Chemical Engineering is that they'll always need engineers onsite here. Hell, use more oil, keep us employed. When the oil runs out, we'll make your hydrogen fuel cells for you

haha, so true. it's all a scam

 

[thraxes]

As a TV Brodcast Engineer Major let me check this out:

As an engineer
1) you will miss out on a lot of fun in college, forsaking some of the best years of your life.
>>It is your choice how to balance fun and work... I personally have a very good balance IMO
2) you will miss the best chance you'll have to enrich your mind in a variety of academic areas
>>True to a certain extent. But I go to a pure tech college so there are no non tech subjects. Languages are offered though and I take advantage of that.
3) you will be limited to working in a few major cities.
>>As a Broadcast Engineer I work at a TV station... try every major city in the world! Thats where option 2 with Languages comes into play. Being fluent in German, Spanish and English has advantages
4) the hours will be excessively long
>>Which well-paying job nowadays doesn't have long hours? Depends greatly on your employer.
5) you will be surrounded primarily be men at work
>>If you are anly working with Engineers,yes. But at the TV station where I work there are alot of women buzzing in and out of the studios.
6) many if not most of your coworkers are going to be foreigners
>>Are you xenophobic? I'm not, I grew up in Canada, Africa and South America. Working with other nationalities is very enriching from my experience.
7) your salary will top out early and those liberal-arts majors will catch and pass you
>>Maybe... maybe not. If one gets snotty with me while he's on TV I just might make his face look green
8) by the time you're in your 30's you will be worried about keeping a job
>>And a Liberal Art Major will be laughing his way to the bank?? Riiiiiight :roll:
9) you're NOT going to get into management.
>>BS: If you want to be in management you have to be very good at your job - engineer or not is irrelevant. Part of the management of the TV studio I work in are damn good engineers. Lufthansa's CEO and a few Boardmembers are also engineers that climbed the ladder...
10) the long-term outlook for engineers is dismal
>>What has this guy been smoking? I didn't know that we wanted to reinstate the stone age.

He may be applying this solely to the current outlook of CS/EE but there are always going to be market fluctuations that make certain majors seem unattractive and enrollment goes down. But more often than not after the downturn comes annother upswing. Due to the low enrollment during the downturn, fresh engineers are then suddenly in short supply. Its the same in every country and in every field.

 

[yllus]

I need to save this locally to my computer so I can cut and paste it into various "the sky is falling threads"...

NO MATTER YOUR MAJOR, IF YOU'RE GOOD AT WHAT YOU DO, SOMEONE OUT THERE WILL RECOGNIZE YOUR WORTH AND OFFER YOU A FAIR WAGE. GOD BLESS THE USA/CANADA/UK/ETC.

 

[purepolly]

9) you're NOT going to get into management
>>BS: If you want to be in management you have to be very good at your job - engineer or not is irrelevant. Part of the management of the TV studio I work in are damn good engineers. Lufthansa's CEO and a few Boardmembers are also engineers that climbed the ladder...

I don't buy the being good at your job part. I'm not saying that there aren't some good managers out there... but they are few and very far between, and truly worth their weight in gold. Management more often is about who you know and how you appear to play the game for the benefit of even higher management.

--thus speaks a former engineer with 20 yrs experience

 

[thraxes]

Originally posted by: purepolly
9) you're NOT going to get into management
>>BS: If you want to be in management you have to be very good at your job - engineer or not is irrelevant. Part of the management of the TV studio I work in are damn good engineers. Lufthansa's CEO and a few Boardmembers are also engineers that climbed the ladder...

I don't buy the being good at your job part. I'm not saying that there aren't some good managers out there... but they are few and very far between, and truly worth their weight in gold. Management more often is about who you know and how you appear to play the game for the benefit of even higher management.

--thus speaks a former engineer with 20 yrs experience

Here in Germany we call that "Vitamin B" and B stands for Beziehungen -> Cennections. If you aspire to be a manager then those are certainly an important factor in attaining your goal but it doesn't compensate for lack of skill.

 

[Armitage]

Why is management put out as some lofty goal that we should aspire to? Frankly, you couldn't pay me enough to put up with the bullsh|t that my boss does.

 

[purepolly]

management = $$$ = selling soul to the devil

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: LordFortius
As an engineer
1) you will miss out on a lot of fun in college, forsaking some of the best years of your life.
2) you will miss the best chance you'll have to enrich your mind in a variety of academic areas
3) you will be limited to working in a few major cities.
4) the hours will be excessively long
5) you will be surrounded primarily be men at work
6) many if not most of your coworkers are going to be foreigners
7) your salary will top out early and those liberal-arts majors will catch and pass you
8) by the time you're in your 30's you will be worried about keeping a job
9) you're NOT going to get into management
10) the long-term outlook for engineers is dismal

I'm an Electrical Engineer undergrad at Virginia Tech.

1) I have no clue what I'm missing out on. Engineers go to parties here as much as anyone else. Yes, they work harder, but that doesn't mean they never get a chance to have fun or do something on their own time. It means they just have to have a better idea of when to party and when to work.

2) I personally find this to be the stupidest argument ever taken against engineering, and it boggles my mind that so many adopt this view. Yes, I firmly advocate more liberal arts in the engineering curriculum, but the fact is that math and science can enrich a mind as well as literature and music, and many (if not most) engineers choose to enjoy those historically "enriching" activities on their own time. Not to mention, more is done in the engineering education to expose students to the liberal arts than the typical liberal arts education does to expose their students to technical professions.

3) Right. Because small towns don't need to have roads or buildings designed. :thumbsdown:

4) Only if you hate what you're doing. Engineers aren't secretaries, more is expected of them (and for good reason)

5) Yeah, I'll give you that one.

6) Even if this was true... who cares? Granted, it is frustrating when a teacher speaks English as a second (or third) language, but engineers get better solutions when working with someone not identical to themselves. Also, I fail to see how other majors can be any more culturally "enriched" when they're mostly the same background. (Sorry, but that 'argument' is STILL upsetting me)

7) If you dont follow up the ladder, of course you wont make more money, this is no different regardless of what job you choose. Many engineers take up management or business classes to see that it doesn't happen to them. However, most engineers do get promoted to a management position within 10 years of graduation.

8) wtf?

9) WTF?!

10) This guy was really straining to make it to 10 points, wasn't he?

 

[GoSharks]

Originally posted by: LordFortius
As an engineer
1) you will miss out on a lot of fun in college, forsaking some of the best years of your life.
2) you will miss the best chance you'll have to enrich your mind in a variety of academic areas
3) you will be limited to working in a few major cities.
4) the hours will be excessively long
5) you will be surrounded primarily be men at work
6) many if not most of your coworkers are going to be foreigners
7) your salary will top out early and those liberal-arts majors will catch and pass you
8) by the time you're in your 30's you will be worried about keeping a job
9) you're NOT going to get into management
10) the long-term outlook for engineers is dismal

First off i am a sophmore biomedical engineering major at Johns Hopkins.

1. nope, not missing anything yet
2. we are required to take 18 credits of humanities... take it as you will but thats at least 6 classes.
3. maybe in the many major metropolitan areas... slight difference
4. dont know/cant say
5. there are a suprising number of ladies in the bme department... but there are still more guys
6. bme? not just yet from what i know.
7. haha - you mean liberal arts like english, history, bio (w/just a bs), etc? i dont think so.
8. my dad was actively recruited in his 40s from ibm by startups.
9. uh no.
10. not in bme. bme is on the way up.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: GOSHARKS

Originally posted by: LordFortius
As an engineer
1) you will miss out on a lot of fun in college, forsaking some of the best years of your life.
2) you will miss the best chance you'll have to enrich your mind in a variety of academic areas
3) you will be limited to working in a few major cities.
4) the hours will be excessively long
5) you will be surrounded primarily be men at work
6) many if not most of your coworkers are going to be foreigners
7) your salary will top out early and those liberal-arts majors will catch and pass you
8) by the time you're in your 30's you will be worried about keeping a job
9) you're NOT going to get into management
10) the long-term outlook for engineers is dismal

First off i am a sophmore biomedical engineering major at Johns Hopkins.

1. nope, not missing anything yet
2. we are required to take 18 credits of humanities... take it as you will but thats at least 6 classes.
3. maybe in the many major metropolitan areas... slight difference
4. dont know/cant say
5. there are a suprising number of ladies in the bme department... but there are still more guys
6. bme? not just yet from what i know.
7. haha - you mean liberal arts like english, history, bio (w/just a bs), etc? i dont think so.
8. my dad was actively recruited in his 40s from ibm by startups.
9. uh no.
10. not in bme. bme is on the way up.

hehe BME here also. And ironically, at my school its the only Engineering major where there are more females than males

 

[jaydee]

Junior EE at a top 10 school with 6 months of co-op experience and lots of engineering friends:

#1 is somewhat true, #5 is very true, the rest is almost pure BS or inconsequential (#6?)

 

[hans007]

1) you will miss out on a lot of fun in college, forsaking some of the best years of your life.


ok i partially agree to this . I dont think i met that many very fun people. I went to and had parties, slacked off a lot etc, but i still dont think that the average engineering student was down to have any fun. they were all busy studying. I guess i was a little atypical, i wanted fun and engineering. my gpa was crap. oh well.

yeah i had fun, but i still think i missed out. so i agree but its not as bad as you make it out to be.

2) you will miss the best chance you'll have to enrich your mind in a variety of academic areas

i consider myself the type of person who want to learn. you dont need to take classes to learn about the world. read the paper, watch the news, join a club. just use your brain.



3) you will be limited to working in a few major cities.

there seem to be even more oppurtunities now in the cities that are small. so i dont agree with this. sure its usually a bigger city, but i dont really consider this such a bad thing. the same can be said for al ot of professions, such as anything relating to finance.


4) the hours will be excessively long

i work at one of the top security firms in the world, and i work 40 hours a week.


5) you will be surrounded primarily be men at work

yes this is true. surprisingly its not quite as bad as during school


6) many if not most of your coworkers are going to be foreigners

most of my coworkers are not foreign. well they may be asian or indian or whatever, but they are american. they didnt just come over from asia or india yesterday.


7) your salary will top out early and those liberal-arts majors will catch and pass you

the company i work for is fairly young , then again i know people who make 100k a year and are just approaching their 30th birthday. liberal arts majors tend to NEVER make over 100k unless they become lawyers . so i do not think average earnings over lifetime will matter.



8) by the time you're in your 30's you will be worried about keeping a job

most of our lead developers are in their 30s and their are so invaluable we would never lose them. it is also why we pay them so much., so they wont leave and try to get even more higher paying jobs, or start their own companies.


9) you're NOT going to get into management
that would also be a NO. most of our senior engineers lead their own teams of lower engineers. i consider that managerment. we have development managers. managing is a product of your personality and social skills. i do not believe being an engineer has anything to do with it, you are born a leader or you are not. i dont think being a liberal arts major has any bearing as to whether you will be a manager or not either.



10) the long-term outlook for engineers is dismal

this one is the worst one . there are so many "probllems" that need to be solved. so many things that have yet to be invented. notihng is perfect, and engineers are they to make them better.

most of the other job categories have much more justifiable reasons for saying this and at the least just as justifiable.

if you can say this about engineers, you can say doctors will be obsolete because biotech will fix everytthing, you can say financial analysts will be gone because computer based AI will eventually be able to analyze financial statements (turobotax...... in 10 years ) , etc etc.


you can make up something for anything.

 

[DaWhim]

I am skeptical to both, the author and those who think the author is bs-ing. I believe stats don't lie, the author offered some to support himself, how about for those say he is bs?

however, one point is taken from the whole thread:

NO MATTER YOUR MAJOR, IF YOU'RE GOOD AT WHAT YOU DO, SOMEONE OUT THERE WILL RECOGNIZE YOUR WORTH AND OFFER YOU A FAIR WAGE.

the garbage men make more than my high school teacher in NYC, they make about $30/hr.

 

[hans007]

Originally posted by: DaWhim
I am skeptical to both, the author and those who think the author is bs-ing. I believe stats don't lie, the author offered some to support himself, how about for those say he is bs?

however, one point is taken from the whole thread:

NO MATTER YOUR MAJOR, IF YOU'RE GOOD AT WHAT YOU DO, SOMEONE OUT THERE WILL RECOGNIZE YOUR WORTH AND OFFER YOU A FAIR WAGE.

the garbage men make more than my high school teacher in NYC, they make about $30/hr.

based on supply and demand garbage men making more than teachers is a fair wage.
im a software engineer and i make less than that garbage man, not that many people wnat to be garbage men, there isa low supply of them. and they have unions probably.


tons of people want to be teachers. 10 month work year, and you feel like you are helping the world since everyone says teachers are great people who love kids, blah blah blah, damn media.

seriously, the media says teachers are all good, but we've all had teachers that we all knew just didnt care at all about the kids.

 

[LordFortius]

FWIW, this is a followup post by the OP:

**************************************************************************************
I have no illusions that I will change the mind of people already in the program. As you say, denial runs deep. Cialdini wrote in his excellent book 'The Psychology of Influence', "... our nearly obsessive desire to be (and to appear) consistent with what we have already done. Once we have made a choice or taken a stand, we will encounter personal and interpersonal pressures to behave consistently with that commitment. Those pressures will cause us to respond in ways that justify our earlier decision.?

My hopes are to reach the students on this board who are *considering* engineering but haven't yet committed. I myself am an EE who has worked for hi-tech companies, mostly household names, in the Bay area for over a decade. Of course on an anonymous board nobody can verify that, and I want to keep my anonymity. But they CAN go out and talk to real engineers and see what I'm saying is true, they can follow the links and read the stories for themselves.

And what you say about offshoring is true; just see the BusinessWeek article called "Look Who's Going Offshore : Tech startups are heading overseas even more eagerly than multinationals" at http://www.businessweek.com/ma..._20/b3883090_mz063.htm for one example discussing the trend.

However I will quibble with you on one point. You write "there is still a need for, and there will be jobs for, highly educated (grad degrees), creative "architect" engineers". This is true today but won't be true in 15 or 20 years. The experienced designers are here in the US and there are few overseas today, but given 2 decades of experience my bet is that there will be a sufficient supply of them abroad as well. Many MS and PhD's in engineering are going to foreign-born engineers, and eventually they can take over that role (and many will choose to return home where the standard of living at even 1/3 the pay is head and shoulders above what they can get in the Bay area with its $500K starter homes).
**************************************************************************************