The Three Easy Steps to Avoid Poverty

[Paratus]

haha. Right. Are you going to tell me your OP wasn't arguing that it's fundamentally about racism in the end?

Actually no. My point was the orginal study was completely black and white. Do these three things and 98% of you will be above the poverty line.

The second study shows a complication, a shade of gray if you will, that race is a factor.

Others in this thread have posed other potential factors, more shades. Some of which I can agree with.

 

[Enigmoid]

That was exactly the point I was trying to make, and you made it much more betters.

If you grow up with access only to broken schools, then you probably didn't get much of an education or job skills. Even if you are the brilliant, self-motivated kid who excelled, any prospective employer is going to see that school and mentally downgrade you as an applicant. Worse, you probably didn't go to school with the new junior account executive at White and Whiter Investments or the new assistant manager at the RiteAid. You probably went to school with the guy who sells weed and crack behind the White and Whiter Investments building and the guy who was busted for holding up the RiteAid at gunpoint. Not a lot of fortuitous breaks and opportunities coming your way. Then when your results are worse than kids not raised in a hell labeled school, proggies want to say "Ooh, we're a racist nation!" Maybe, but the larger problem is the broken system. We shouldn't be pretending that all high school educations or all full time jobs are equal.

This is 100% true.

However, while you may never really drag yourself out of poverty you can certainly set your kids up for success. You may end up working an dead end job but you can move somewhere better and raise a family. With hard work and dedication (support from yourself and work from your kids), it is not impossible for your children to end up living a solid lifestyle from a professional career.

People are thinking too short term on this. If you are born in poverty you are much more likely to remain in poverty. However, your children can be very successful with hard work. You see this all the time with immigrants, who end up coming with almost nothing yet their children end up as engineers or doctors (etc.).

And this seems to be the problem. Doing this is not easy. It takes time and dedication and the majority of the results will never be reaped by yourself. Yet if you go back and look at everyone born in more fortunate circumstances, nearly all of them will have someone back in their ancestry who was self made from nothing (for instance a poor farmer's son who left home and moved to the city and eventually ended up a wealthy shopkeeper). Conversely, with many less fortunate people if you were to look back, you might (possibly) see someone who was much better off lose nearly everything (possibly through no fault on their part).

Poverty may not be something you might ever be able to get out of. However, with a lot of work, there is a good chance that you can get your kids out and end the cycle.

 

[mizzou]

1. Don't get addictions
2. Don't commit crimes
3. Keep good mental health

 

[werepossum]

This is 100% true.

However, while you may never really drag yourself out of poverty you can certainly set your kids up for success. You may end up working an dead end job but you can move somewhere better and raise a family. With hard work and dedication (support from yourself and work from your kids), it is not impossible for your children to end up living a solid lifestyle from a professional career.

People are thinking too short term on this. If you are born in poverty you are much more likely to remain in poverty. However, your children can be very successful with hard work. You see this all the time with immigrants, who end up coming with almost nothing yet their children end up as engineers or doctors (etc.).

And this seems to be the problem. Doing this is not easy. It takes time and dedication and the majority of the results will never be reaped by yourself. Yet if you go back and look at everyone born in more fortunate circumstances, nearly all of them will have someone back in their ancestry who was self made from nothing (for instance a poor farmer's son who left home and moved to the city and eventually ended up a wealthy shopkeeper). Conversely, with many less fortunate people if you were to look back, you might (possibly) see someone who was much better off lose nearly everything (possibly through no fault on their part).

Poverty may not be something you might ever be able to get out of. However, with a lot of work, there is a good chance that you can get your kids out and end the cycle.

Very true. We once had a janitor who was North Korean. Hard worker, almost no English, zero marketable job skills. Not much call for peasant farmers in 20th century America. However, his kid was in engineering school in Knoxville. Although he didn't have the tools to compete, he damn sure recognized them and made sure his kid got them, even though that kid might well have been the only Korean in Howard which is typically one of the three worst scoring high schools in the state. (I say kid; might have been more than one. He had almost no English.)

 

[MagickMan]

4. Stop buying silly shit with money you don't have.

 

[HumblePie]

Very true. We once had a janitor who was North Korean. Hard worker, almost no English, zero marketable job skills. Not much call for peasant farmers in 20th century America. However, his kid was in engineering school in Knoxville. Although he didn't have the tools to compete, he damn sure recognized them and made sure his kid got them, even though that kid might well have been the only Korean in Howard which is typically one of the three worst scoring high schools in the state. (I say kid; might have been more than one. He had almost no English.)

And this is where cultural demographics come into play by race more than racism. How many second or third generation kids from poverty living parents or grandparents make it out of poverty by racial demographics or at least get moved to a better area? If you are bring a larger time variable into the picture it starts to produce a clearer picture that goes beyond trying to blame racism as the root cause for poverty in the US. Along with what was already mentioned.

 

[bshole]

4th step....... don't get a devastating disease

 

[Pneumothorax]

What I do find interesting is that in my workplace there's 3 African-American 1st generation immigrants who have done really well for themselves. They all came here dirt poor families who pushed education and 2 are now physicians and the 3rd is a manager in the billing department. 2 are from gasp- Kenya. I'm quite sure they faced the same kinds of racism as a 5th generation AA who had slave ancestors in modern day America.... An interesting difference is that they came from families who have healthy relationships where both parents are still married.

 

[piasabird]

When you break it down by race also keep in mind the number of people killed by race and the number of people in jail by race. It is hard to get ahead if your are in jail or dead.

I have seen a lot of polls that seem to indicate having a stable marriage increases your chance for success. Just having 2 employed people in the family can sometimes as much as double your chances for success.

Not getting arrested or charged for drug or crime-related offenses also increases or inversely decreases your chance for success. Same goes for credit rating. Employers do and will run a background check and screen you for drug use and then check your credit rating.

I work at a community college and I see some really good and talented Black people working, some in higher positions, like the Head of Financial Aid. There is one really strong black family, and her husband is employed by the FBI. Probably the key to their success is hard work, education, and just living a life free of crime.

 

[Jmman]

To make the leap between the posted study and racism is a pretty far leap if you ask me. I think a more likely scenario can be pinpointed with just two maps:

http://www.fixr.com/blog/2015/06/12/us-economic-performance-in-a-map/


http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_nhblack.html


African Americans by far live in the worst economically performing states. If you get a full time job there, most likely is will be a low paying job. That certainly tends to increase your chances of living in poverty.......

 

[werepossum]

And this is where cultural demographics come into play by race more than racism. How many second or third generation kids from poverty living parents or grandparents make it out of poverty by racial demographics or at least get moved to a better area? If you are bring a larger time variable into the picture it starts to produce a clearer picture that goes beyond trying to blame racism as the root cause for poverty in the US. Along with what was already mentioned.

To a large degree, I agree, especially with Asians who as a group are kicking all our asses. But I think it's as easy to overplay race as racism. Just look at the success of Jamaican immigrants versus Haitian immigrants - same race, both from very poor nations with little educational opportunities for the poor, but completely different culture and completely different success rates. Much more important than race is what culture we choose to embrace, but race isn't an insignificant factor independent of our adopted culture either, especially as it affects one's start in life and one's educational opportunities.

When you break it down by race also keep in mind the number of people killed by race and the number of people in jail by race. It is hard to get ahead if your are in jail or dead.

I have seen a lot of polls that seem to indicate having a stable marriage increases your chance for success. Just having 2 employed people in the family can sometimes as much as double your chances for success.

Not getting arrested or charged for drug or crime-related offenses also increases or inversely decreases your chance for success. Same goes for credit rating. Employers do and will run a background check and screen you for drug use and then check your credit rating.

I work at a community college and I see some really good and talented Black people working, some in higher positions, like the Head of Financial Aid. There is one really strong black family, and her husband is employed by the FBI. Probably the key to their success is hard work, education, and just living a life free of crime.

That's a good point, but again, if one attends a school system where education is secondary to being cool and remaining alive, in circumstances where getting fed is more important than getting educated, then getting one of those good govmit jobs is difficult.

To make the leap between the posted study and racism is a pretty far leap if you ask me. I think a more likely scenario can be pinpointed with just two maps:

http://www.fixr.com/blog/2015/06/12/us-economic-performance-in-a-map/


http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_nhblack.html


African Americans by far live in the worst economically performing states. If you get a full time job there, most likely is will be a low paying job. That certainly tends to increase your chances of living in poverty.......

That's a good point as well, although it doesn't completely evade race. Probably most blacks are in those states because that is home, and probably for most of them it's home because that's where their ancestors were brought as slaves.

 

[unokitty]

When you look at the achievements of black immigrants vs US born blacks, you find more income, more education, more marriage, and less poverty...

Doesn't appear that the model promoted by the OP can account for those differences...

Uno

 

[Svnla]

Even with all this kind of crap = http://www.businessinsider.com/ivy-...times-tougher-for-asian-kids-to-get-in-2015-8

and without any of the set aside programs and affirmative actions and this and that, Asians are still kicking ass in HS and colleges.

 

[Paratus]

When you look at the achievements of black immigrants vs US born blacks, you find more income, more education, more marriage, and less poverty...

Doesn't appear that the model promoted by the OP can account for those differences...

Uno

If your saying to be successful that there are more factors to being middle class than just graduating, waiting to have kids until marriage and getting a job then we agree because that was my point.

If you're saying race and discrimination doesn't play a part how do you explain your data?

 

[ivwshane]

When you look at the achievements of black immigrants vs US born blacks, you find more income, more education, more marriage, and less poverty...

Doesn't appear that the model promoted by the OP can account for those differences...

Uno

Do you think older people tend to be married and make more money than younger un married people? Yeah? Then what exactly do you think the chart you posted is telling you?

 

[unokitty]

If your saying to be successful that there are more factors to being middle class than just graduating, waiting to have kids until marriage and getting a job then we agree because that was my point.

If you're saying race and discrimination doesn't play a part how do you explain your data?

The data isn't 'mine.' The data is from Pew Research. And it speaks for itself.

Still, if anyone wants to believe that race is the only significant factor, it doesn't matter to me.

My point was that any model, such as the one presented in the OP, that attributes all differences exclusively to racism is simplistic to a fault.

Uno

 

[JockoJohnson]

4th step....... don't get a devastating disease

Yes, because clearly a large percentage of those in poverty have a devastating disease.

 

[Paratus]

The data isn't 'mine.' The data is from Pew Research. And it speaks for itself.

Still, if anyone wants to believe that race is the only significant factor, it doesn't matter to me.

My point was that any model, such as the one presented in the OP, that attributes all differences exclusively to racism is simplistic to a fault.

Uno

No it doesn't speak for itself. I'd like you to tell me what it says to you so I don't go putting words in your mouth.

You seem to be saying it proves that racism isn't the issue. Is that right ? How does the data you linked show that.

Help me out here.

 

[HumblePie]

No it doesn't speak for itself. I'd like you to tell me what it says to you so I don't go putting words in your mouth.

You seem to be saying it proves that racism isn't the issue. Is that right ? How does the data you linked show that.

Help me out here.

The data he presented shows that black immigrants have very similar economic demographics as all other immigrants and very similar to the US as a whole is still predominately white in population. Which means black immigrants to the US are able to get educations, gets good jobs, and be successful in life. That is a direct contrast to the notion the racial discrimination is a major factor of root cause into the economic plight of us born black people. If racism was a problem foreign born blacks and their children would face the same racial wall that stops them from achieving economic success as a group demographic on the whole. But they don't.

This data can be further broken down into where each foreign born person comes from and coalescing economic success values from those demographics as stated above by others.

The notion in the OP that racism is a major factor in preventing black us born citizens from achieving economic success on the whole is absurd based on what has already been shown. This data just reinforces my previous statement even more.


Now DON'T go into stupid hyperbolic territory and think my claim is that there isn't any more racism. I didn't state that. There is some, and there is some that do prevent some people from achieving success. Even 1 person being held back that way is a tragedy in my book. But racism holding people back in this day in age is the outliers not the norm.

 

[werepossum]

Yes, because clearly a large percentage of those in poverty have a devastating disease.

Um, that wasn't his point, and it doesn't require that a large percentage of those in poverty have a devastating disease to be valid. It only requires that a large percentage of those with a devastating disease be in poverty to be valid, which for chronic devastating diseases is probably true, if a little less true with Obamacare.

The data he presented shows that black immigrants have very similar economic demographics as all other immigrants and very similar to the US as a whole is still predominately white in population. Which means black immigrants to the US are able to get educations, gets good jobs, and be successful in life. That is a direct contrast to the notion the racial discrimination is a major factor of root cause into the economic plight of us born black people. If racism was a problem foreign born blacks and their children would face the same racial wall that stops them from achieving economic success as a group demographic on the whole. But they don't.

This data can be further broken down into where each foreign born person comes from and coalescing economic success values from those demographics as stated above by others.

The notion in the OP that racism is a major factor in preventing black us born citizens from achieving economic success on the whole is absurd based on what has already been shown. This data just reinforces my previous statement even more.


Now DON'T go into stupid hyperbolic territory and think my claim is that there isn't any more racism. I didn't state that. There is some, and there is some that do prevent some people from achieving success. Even 1 person being held back that way is a tragedy in my book. But racism holding people back in this day in age is the outliers not the norm.

Well said. I think a much stronger problem than race is the notion that "people like us" can't succeed, so why even try? A large number of minorities have been convinced of that, and probably a fair number of whites as well - certainly a large number of white millennials (which is both sad and amusing considering how well so many white millennials are doing.) Growing up poor, especially within a larger enclave of poor with broken school systems run as babysitting jobs programs more than as education programs, makes it difficult to succeed. You start out with two strikes against you, so you don't have the room to make mistakes and bad decisions that a wealthier person typically has. If you don't believe that "people like us" can succeed, that's pretty much the third strike. The secret to success among poor Asians is tiger moms with a high valuation of education, hard work and decency coupled with relentless discipline. I'm guessing that most immigrants of any race have that same drive (to varying degrees, obviously) coupled with a belief they can succeed. After all, one wouldn't come to America if one believed it was a racist place where "people who look like us" cannot succeed.

 

[Svnla]

Asians (Vietnamese) are not doing too bad after Katrina in a black dominated (over 60% population) city (New Orleans) = http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/o...e-success.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Them Asians are acting whites/sold out/Uncle Toms/not keep it real/<fill in the blank>

 

[piasabird]

I see asians here and there in the midwest. (I am married to one). It is not like they take over large cities or anything like that. There is a japanese garden area at the Botanical Garden in St Louis, MO. They have a festival every year. There is diversity in the midwest in different areas. However, most people seem to learn english and try to mix in with their larger US Communities. I have a relative in Kansas City who works with some displaced people who needed a little help in Kansas City.

Just smiling immigrants children.
Bhutanese Children's Ministry
https://www.facebook.com/#!/missionadelante

 

[werepossum]

Asians (Vietnamese) are not doing too bad after Katrina in a black dominated (over 60% population) city (New Orleans) = http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/o...e-success.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Them Asians are acting whites/sold out/Uncle Toms/not keep it real/<fill in the blank>

I can still vividly remember how in the aftermath of Katrina CNN interviewed three people. There was a young black dude who, as he sat with his arm around his white girlfriend, said "Those buses they brought us here in? They wasn't nice. They was like a slave ship. Ain't nothing changed." Then they interviewed a white woman who wasn't responding to the reporter's questions but was grilling the reporter on when she could expect to get her FEMA trailer. Then they tried to interview a Vietnamese man, but they didn't get much out of him because he and his family were busy sifting through the runs of where their house once stood. Even the street was gone, but out of the debris they had recovered a very small pile of unbroken dished, each wiped clean and neatly stacked. It was heartbreaking, but also strangely uplifting; I couldn't help thinking "Go get us a million more like them and we'll once again lead the free world."

And I'll be honest: I don't want to work hard enough cheaply enough to compete with the Chinese, Vietnamese, Mexicans, Indians, and whomever else is facing near-starvation. I prefer my government not put me in that position, and even though my current field (AEC engineering) is pretty safe from outsourcing, I still very much resent my government doing that to my fellow Americans.

 

[bshole]

Um, that wasn't his point, and it doesn't require that a large percentage of those in poverty have a devastating disease to be valid. It only requires that a large percentage of those with a devastating disease be in poverty to be valid, which for chronic devastating diseases is probably true, if a little less true with Obamacare.

My wife's parents went from middle class to destitute due to long term disease. They lost their life savings, house, etc.... Really fucking scary to think how easy it is to lose everything.

 

[jhbball]

Asians (Vietnamese) are not doing too bad after Katrina in a black dominated (over 60% population) city (New Orleans) = http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/o...e-success.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Them Asians are acting whites/sold out/Uncle Toms/not keep it real/<fill in the blank>

Our favorite racist. What's up?