The threat of godless ideologies

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harry Truman pointed out the danger of secular fundamentalism:

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman

JAMES MADISON, who was NOT a regular churchgoer, who had little to nothing positive to say about religion...

Jason

Madison believed Christianity to be the foundation upon which a just government must be built. Writing on June 20, 1785, he stated:

Religion [is] the basis and Foundation of Government.

Madison expounds further:

We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.

In 1788, Madison stated:

The belief in God all powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities to be impressed with it.

In Madison's personal Bible, his hand written notes appear in the margin of Chapter 19 of the Book of Acts:

Believers who are in a state of grace, have need of the Word of God for their edification and building up therefore implies a possibility of falling. v. 32.

Grace, it is the free gift of God. Luke. 12. 32-v.32.

Giver more blessed than the receiver. v. 35.

To neglect the means for our own preservation is to tempt God: and to trust to them is to neglect Him. v. 3 & Ch. 27. v. 31.

Humility, the better any man is, the lower thoughts he has of himself. v. 19.

Ministers to take heed to themselves & their flock. v. 28.

The Apostles did greater miracles than Christ, in the matter, not manner, of them. v. 11.

In his manuscripts on the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, Madison wrote:

Christ's Divinity appears by St. John, chapter xx, 2: 'And Thomas answered and said unto Him, my Lord and my God!' Resurrection testified to and witnessed by the Apostles, Acts iv, 33: 'And with great power gave the Apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.'

On November 9, 1772, Madison wrote to his close college friend, William Bradford:

A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the annals of Heaven.

[Bad health has] intimated to me not to expect a long or healthy life, yet it may be better with me after some time tho I hardly dare expect it and therefore have little spirit and alacrity to set about anything that is difficult in acquiring and useless in possessing after one has exchanged time for eternity.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: PatboyX

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Sure, any murder is disgusting. It just so happens that historically, atheists have caused more death, misery, and human suffering than theists.

Like I've said, in the 20th century alone, communists murdered about 110,000,00 people.

In all of recorded history, how many people have religionists killed? Do you think it's more than 110,000,000 people? If not, isn't godlessness a greater evil?

No, Man is evil. If given the means those who killed in the name of religion would have killed many more. Fortunately they didn't have the means to be more efficient with their genocides.

im going to have to agree with red. your arbitrary body count does nothing but make you feel like you can pin the blame for human suffering on a lack of religious belief. i dont know what makes you think that these numbers are accurate or (more importantly) meaningful. human suffering is caused by humans.

If both sides are guilty how can you say one is better than the other? That's like stating Hitler was better than Stalin.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harry Truman pointed out the danger of secular fundamentalism:

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman

And WHY would you imageine (for it IS imagination alone that guides you) that the Author of the Bill of Rights, JAMES MADISON, who was NOT a regular churchgoer, who had little to nothing positive to say about religion, who did NOT ask for religious service at his deathbed...was inspired by the Bible?

Have you ever READ the Bible? It is NOT a book about Natural Rights theory. Madison was an Individual Rights advocate from the word go.

Jason

I responded to your disinformation about Madison, but what does it have to do with the topic?

Are you conceding the obvious, i.e. disbelief has been a far greater scourge to humanity than belief?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harry Truman pointed out the danger of secular fundamentalism:

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman

And WHY would you imageine (for it IS imagination alone that guides you) that the Author of the Bill of Rights, JAMES MADISON, who was NOT a regular churchgoer, who had little to nothing positive to say about religion, who did NOT ask for religious service at his deathbed...was inspired by the Bible?

Have you ever READ the Bible? It is NOT a book about Natural Rights theory. Madison was an Individual Rights advocate from the word go.

Jason

I responded to your disinformation about Madison, but what does it have to do with the topic?

Are you conceding the obvious, i.e. disbelief has been a far greater scourge to humanity than belief?

Both have been bad. If the Crusaders had tanks, Biological Weapons and Nukes and the knowledge how to use them without killing themselves do you think there would be a non Christian left alive?

 

[Steeplerot]

:music: Rips Dreaming, of a conservative whites-only christmas
Just like the ones the jews in the warsaw ghetto used to know
Where the missles and bombs glisten,
and children listen
For the bunker-busters are coming for them they know

Rips Dreaming, of a conservative whites-only xmas
With every special card rumsfeld doesen't write
May your days be bigoted and right
And may all your citizens be upstanding and white :music:

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people.

How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?

Incidentally, the Communists didn't come to power until the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, NOT 1900. Perhaps you'd consider making a donation to the

Victims of Communism Memorial Fund? I think you should donate $6 and tell everyone it was $20, because that certainly seems to be your method of operation here.

Jason

Okay, let's focus just on the Soviets. Between 1917 and 1987, the USSR murdered 65 million people.

How many people were killed "in the name of Jesus" over this time period? Or how about even 1 AD to the present? You can even throw in those killed by Isamists.

Commmunism/Fascism/Christianity/Judaism are all faces of the same evil: COLLECTIVISM. The destroyer among men is NOT the Individual Rights, Pro-liberty ideology of the Secular world, it is the Pro FAITH, ANTI-REASON extremism of Collectivist ideology in all its many faces.

What destroys men is the ABANDONMENT of REASON in favor of FAITH.

What destroys men is the willingness to BELIEVE rather than to DISCOVER and LEARN.

What destroys men is the idea of SAFETY held in higher regard than the idea of FREEDOM.

In Communism your FAITH is placed in the "Community" and regulated by the state. You hold that a man belongs to his brothers.

In Fascism your FAITH is placed in the state for the sake of the Society. You hold that a man belongs to the state.

In Judeo Christian Mythology your FAITH is placed in an invisible "God" for his own purposes. You hold that a man belongs to GOD.

In SECULAR ideology you reject absolute Faith in favor of REASON.

In SECULAR ideology you hold that man has RIGHTS which are inherent in his natural condition.

In SECULAR ideology you trust that YOU have the capacity to run your own life for your own happiness.

In SECULAR ideology you hold that a man belongs TO HIMSELF, that he is AN END IN HIMSELF, that his rights exist INDEPENDENT of other men, that by the fact of his nature as a RATIONAL creature man has a NATURAL RIGHT to be free to make his own choices and to benefit or suffer from the consequences of those choices.

You can place your faith in whatever you want, I'll choose LIBERTY.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: IndieSnob

You keep talking time periods here Rip, as to say that christians have come along way while seculars still continue to murder to this day. Face it, every religion has commited attrocities. I also find it sick how you cheapen every person murdered by making it christianity versus every other religion/non religion. It's just as digusting no matter what side does it. I suppose you'll thumb your nose at this as you want to continue to tout your deity and his followers as such great clean living people. Every sides sh!t stinks, even yours. To be blind to this is just being ignorant.

Sure, any murder is disgusting. It just so happens that historically, atheists have caused more death, misery, and human suffering than theists.

Like I've said, in the 20th century alone, communists murdered about 110,000,00 people.

In all of recorded history, how many people have religionists killed? Do you think it's more than 110,000,000 people? If not, isn't godlessness a greater evil?

I DON'T GIVE TWO CRAPS ABOUT WHO HAS KILLED MORE THAN THE OTHER!

See, again you you absolutely have to compare camp a to camp b. I think if atheists only killed 1 more person throughout history then beleivers in god you would still say it's a greater evil. Again, you pull any info you can whether it's factual or not so you can cast your little religous vendetta. Is this the porpouse God gave you for being on this Earth? To continue to pull links and numbers our of your rear end so you can feel better about your belief? Are you now going to bring up links that say blacks in proportion to whites commit more crimes? It'd be the same misleading crap.

Why can't atheists generate the same level of contempt for murder and violence committed by some of the irreligious than they can for those who claim to be relgious?

I find that interesting.[/quote]

What I find interesting is how you Judeo Christian moral slackards can read in the old testament how TIME AND AGAIN your GOD slaughters people INCLUDING innocents and yet you are unwilling to condemn him as the EVIL GOD he is. You can read all about how he treated Job as a mere PLAYTHING to be tortured, cursed, robbed, his family murdered and yet he stood by and WATCHED, yet you have not the moral fortitude to declare that GOD behaved in an IMMORAL, EVIL way. He acted WITHOUT regard to the rights of Job, and yet you think this is OK?

And as for Job himself, that MORAL COWARD who cowed down and accepted God's will upon him, accepted his own guilt when he had done NOTHING WRONG, where are your cries of contempt for he who refused to even stand up for his RIGHTS when he was being horribly WRONGED.

It's simple to answer, really: Because you act and believe on a moral DOUBLE STANDARD by which ANYTHING that your God does, no matter how horrific, no matter how EVIL, is ALWAYS justified, but man has to "answer" for his "sins".

You are EXACTLY the kind of person who makes tyranny possible, EXACTLY the kind of person who would stand by and let your king/president/God slaughter innocents by the MILLIONS, you'd even HELP him, because you believe that whatever he does is RIGHT.

"What you need now is not to RETURN to morality, you who have never known any; what you need now is to DISCOVER morality."

Jason

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Are you conceding the obvious, i.e. disbelief has been a far greater scourge to humanity than belief?

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT CORRELATION DOES NOT INDICATE CAUSATION? EVEN IF irreligious or secular regimes have been responsible for more death (and you haven't established this) that does not mean the lack of religion is the CAUSE. There could be other, unacknowledged factors at work. All of the suposedly "atheist" regimes you have suggested were responsible for the deaths of large numbers of people were *totalitarian regimes*. Similarly the "religious" regimes responsible for countless deaths (such as the Nazis) were also totalitarian regimes. Has it occurred to you that other factors (such as a totalitarian style of government) are more predictive of loss of life than the lack of a state religion? ARE YOU EVEN CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING THIS?

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Madison certainly recognized the influence religion had on some areas of thinking, but you certainly CANNOT argue that Madison was a Christian, nor that he believed in the government as a religious institution.

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

-James Madison, U.S. President



In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.

-James Madison, U.S. President



Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.

-James Madison, U.S. President

Madison was CLEAR that the United States was NOT a Christian nation, that it's government was NOT founded upon any specific religion or flavor of religion and that it is up to the INDIVIDUAL conscience of EACH man to choose FOR HIMSELF what his beliefs will be.

· "All men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience."
-- James Madison, 1776

· "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Moslems]."
-- U.S. Treaty with Tripoli, 1797 (signed after the new nation's first naval victory, won against pirates in the Mediterranean)

· "The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; ...
... it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of Citizens, and one of the noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much, soon to forget it."
-- James Madison, 1785.

In 1776 Madison inspired George Mason's Virginia's Declaration of Rights, which was instrumental in ENDING the privileged position held by the "established" (Anglican) Church and the right of the official clergy to interfere in civil affairs, starting the trend which led to the USA becoming the first modern secular state.

Get your facts straight and stop trying to delude others as you have deluded YOURSELF.

Jason

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Get your facts straight and stop trying to delude others as you have deluded YOURSELF.

As if this absurd thread isn't enough, he goes into the woods and shoots beautiful defenceless deer for "sport", too. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Get your facts straight and stop trying to delude others as you have deluded YOURSELF.

As if this absurd thread isn't enough, he goes into the woods and shoots beautiful defenceless deer for "sport", too. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

As long as he eats what he kills I don't see a problem with that!

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Get your facts straight and stop trying to delude others as you have deluded YOURSELF.

As if this absurd thread isn't enough, he goes into the woods and shoots beautiful defenceless deer for "sport", too. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

As long as he eats what he kills I don't see a problem with that!

I do!

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people.

How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?

so it's come down to comparing raw body count, eh Rip ?

Godless ideologies have been by far the greatest source of death and destruction and human misery in the modern world.

Nazis weren't atheists.

And much of the death associated with communism came from extremist ideology, rather than rational thought. Which isn't very different from extremism based on religion.

 

[PatboyX]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: PatboyX

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Sure, any murder is disgusting. It just so happens that historically, atheists have caused more death, misery, and human suffering than theists.

Like I've said, in the 20th century alone, communists murdered about 110,000,00 people.

In all of recorded history, how many people have religionists killed? Do you think it's more than 110,000,000 people? If not, isn't godlessness a greater evil?

No, Man is evil. If given the means those who killed in the name of religion would have killed many more. Fortunately they didn't have the means to be more efficient with their genocides.

im going to have to agree with red. your arbitrary body count does nothing but make you feel like you can pin the blame for human suffering on a lack of religious belief. i dont know what makes you think that these numbers are accurate or (more importantly) meaningful. human suffering is caused by humans.

If both sides are guilty how can you say one is better than the other? That's like stating Hitler was better than Stalin.

im not saying one is better.

 

[Tommunist]

"I do! "

That deer had a better life and death than any animal brought up in the industrialized meat world. If it were possible for everyone to hunt their own food and only take what they need I would say only do that but it's just not possible with our society as it is right now.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: IndieSnob

You keep talking time periods here Rip, as to say that christians have come along way while seculars still continue to murder to this day. Face it, every religion has commited attrocities. I also find it sick how you cheapen every person murdered by making it christianity versus every other religion/non religion. It's just as digusting no matter what side does it. I suppose you'll thumb your nose at this as you want to continue to tout your deity and his followers as such great clean living people. Every sides sh!t stinks, even yours. To be blind to this is just being ignorant.

Sure, any murder is disgusting. It just so happens that historically, atheists have caused more death, misery, and human suffering than theists.

Like I've said, in the 20th century alone, communists murdered about 110,000,00 people.

In all of recorded history, how many people have religionists killed? Do you think it's more than 110,000,000 people? If not, isn't godlessness a greater evil?

I DON'T GIVE TWO CRAPS ABOUT WHO HAS KILLED MORE THAN THE OTHER!

See, again you you absolutely have to compare camp a to camp b. I think if atheists only killed 1 more person throughout history then beleivers in god you would still say it's a greater evil. Again, you pull any info you can whether it's factual or not so you can cast your little religous vendetta. Is this the porpouse God gave you for being on this Earth? To continue to pull links and numbers our of your rear end so you can feel better about your belief? Are you now going to bring up links that say blacks in proportion to whites commit more crimes? It'd be the same misleading crap.

Why can't atheists generate the same level of contempt for murder and violence committed by some of the irreligious than they can for those who claim to be relgious?

I find that interesting.

You are EXACTLY the kind of person who makes tyranny possible, EXACTLY the kind of person who would stand by and let your king/president/God slaughter innocents by the MILLIONS, you'd even HELP him, because you believe that whatever he does is RIGHT.

Jason
[/quote]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: tami
what happened to margaret hassan of the CARE group was absolutely awful. she was an iraqi citizen, for god's sake. she was helping them, not hurting them. all of this stuff just makes me wonder what kind of animals are out there. their logic is flawed, and whatever we tell them will do no good.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Put CAD, Rip or ntdz in the same situtation, they'll do exactly the same. -Forsythe

Are you Forsythe?

 

[spamsk8r]

Could we please stop generalizing people into neat little groups? There are many people who call themselves Christians, Muslims, Atheists, etc., who have committed and continue to commit attrocities. And, by the same token, there are many people who do good things which help to eliminate injustice in the world. I'm not going to take away from what Ghandi or Mother Theresa did just because they have a different religion than I do, just like I'm not going to blame Islam for Osama bin Laden's actions, or even Jews for Ariel Sharon's actions. People are people, and there is both good and evil (but more evil) in the world, and that's just how it is. Let each man believe what he wants. He might be wrong, and that's where intellectual debate comes in, but forcing beliefs down someone's throat never helped anyone in the long run.

I am a Christian who does not believe in the power of this world and I do not agree with most politicians, since they like to take nice little stances on the left or right, whereas my views fit into neither. I will stand up for my right to believe what I believe, but I must also stand up for everyone else's right to believe what they believe, even if I believe that they are wrong (insofar as their beliefs do not harm others).

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: venk
Franco, Hitler, Saddam, Osama, etc were all atheists too, weren't they?

Good point, the horrors commited in the name of "god" will outweigh most things.

To become good is not to be the exact opposite of what you are fighting, extremes are always bad.

Pure godless communists can't be fought by god fearing christians, both are two sides of the same coin and both are destructive, the middle ground, acceptance and tolerance is where you'll find true freedom and peace.

so you are one of those who are absolutely against absolutes i take it.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

I found what I believe is the source of the 110,000,000 deaths from communism here.

In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.

But communists could not be wrong. After all, their knowledge was scientific, based on historical materialism, an understanding of the dialectical process in nature and human society, and a materialist (and thus realistic) view of nature. Marx has shown empirically where society has been and why, and he and his interpreters proved that it was destined for a communist end. No one could prevent this, but only stand in the way and delay it at the cost of more human misery. Those who disagreed with this world view and even with some of the proper interpretations of Marx and Lenin were, without a scintilla of doubt, wrong. After all, did not Marx or Lenin or Stalin or Mao say that. . . . In other words, communism was like a fanatical religion. It had its revealed text and chief interpreters. It had its priests and their ritualistic prose with all the answers. It had a heaven, and the proper behavior to reach it. It had its appeal to faith. And it had its crusade against nonbelievers.

What made this secular religion so utterly lethal was its seizure of all the state's instrument of force and coercion and their immediate use to destroy or control all independent sources of power, such as the church, the professions, private businesses, schools, and, of course, the family. The result is what we see in Table 1.

As a government's power is more unrestrained, as its power reaches into all the corners of culture and society, and as it is less democratic, then the more likely it is to kill its own citizens. There is more than a correlation here. As totalitarian power increases, democide multiplies until it curves sharply upward when totalitarianism is near absolute. As a governing elite has the power to do whatever it wants, whether to satisfy its most personal desires, to pursue what it believes is right and true, it may do so whatever the cost in lives. In this case power is the necessary condition for mass murder. Once an elite have it, other causes and conditions can operated to bring about the immediate genocide, terrorism, massacres, or whatever killing an elite feels is warranted.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Tommunist
"I do! "

That deer had a better life and death than any animal brought up in the industrialized meat world. If it were possible for everyone to hunt their own food and only take what they need I would say only do that but it's just not possible with our society as it is right now.

It's part of the same disease. Religous fundamentalism, killing animals. Every evangelical I've met goes hunting. What's up with that? Riprorin probably eats too much red meat anyway.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

As a government's power is more unrestrained, as its power reaches into all the corners of culture and society, and as it is less democratic, then the more likely it is to kill its own citizens. There is more than a correlation here. As totalitarian power increases, democide multiplies until it curves sharply upward when totalitarianism is near absolute. As a governing elite has the power to do whatever it wants, whether to satisfy its most personal desires, to pursue what it believes is right and true, it may do so whatever the cost in lives. In this case power is the necessary condition for mass murder. Once an elite have it, other causes and conditions can operated to bring about the immediate genocide, terrorism, massacres, or whatever killing an elite feels is warranted.

That rings true for me. Also, I think riprorin's obsessive focus on death counts under religious versus irreligious regimes is a 'red herring'. It distracts attention from this more important issue: the extreme danger totalitarian regimes represent. Look at Bush and his goons. They evidently think they can do almost anything they please. And they can. Who is going to call them to account? Certainly not the mainstream media, or the gullible 50% of the US population who would follow these creeps over a cliff. Hence the torture in Guantanamo, the utter lack of accountability for the mammoth screw ups in Iraq, the possible stealing of an election, and on and on. And all of this under a President who never shuts ut about 'his' God.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Why can't atheists generate the same level of contempt for murder and violence committed by some of the irreligious than they can for those who claim to be relgious?

I find that interesting.

At a minimum, I find your question presumtuous, insulting and completely unfounded. What makes you think that atheists aren't as appalled by murder and violence as anyone else, either as individuals or collectively? One's religion, or lack of it, has absolutely nothing to do with whether a person is good, evil or somewhere in between.

 

[TuxDave]

I apologize in case I am providing a straw man to which Rip can use to avoid other questions, as usual. How does communism and atheism relate? I hear this 'communism killed 110 million people' but I'm a little lost on how you prove that it's because they were atheists that they killed lots of people.

 

[Riprorin]

Harvey, a lot of the venom I see from the left here is directed at those who espouse Christian belief, regardless of the fact that those who have killed in Christ's name are clearly acting contrary to His life and teachings.

I find it interesting that the slaughter of 6 million Jews occured in the most educated nation of the time in a land that gave birth to the Enlightment. It just shows what man is capable of when he elevates himself and his domineering will and attempts to live without God.

That's my observation anyway.

 

[Riprorin]

Harvey, you may want to check this out:

July 6, 1945 - "The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution of the Christian Churches"

Hitler was clearly looking to eliminate Christianity.