The Theism/Atheism Mega-thread Hullabaloo Extravaganza

[SlowSpyder]

You said that just because atheists come to the "same place", it's becasue of critical thinking...that's not true, as anything other than issues regarding the existence of God doesn't gather them to the same logical place.

They simply agree...nothing more, nothing less, nothing different than your average group of believers.

Why did you not answer what you believe to be reality regarding your god?

Again, I didn't come to my beliefs or disbeliefs because I am repeating what others say. I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about our existence, what, why, how, etc. I didn't come to my conclusions from a preacher picking and telling me what to believe out of an old book.

Do you think this guy thinks for himself?

Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:28

 

[alzan]

And/or a desire to have some sort of explanation regarding their own existence as well as the existence of the environment.

Furthermore, if it was purely/only a choice of 'would you rather believe in one of the following two options', I think most people would prefer option 1:

1 - Some sort of benevolent deity put you on this planet, you're meant to be here, you have a purpose that you're supposed to discover by living life to the full.

2 - You're here purely by chance, you have no set purpose. You'll also leave the stage with absolute certainty, but the time and way that you leave it is also purely by chance.

Religions I'm aware of then go several steps further, promising to punish the wicked and all sorts, that the benevolent deity will have your back just when you need it provided you're a good person, etc. It's a pretty tempting proposition.

True although a person's religion or belief system is, initially at least, defined by it's upbringing (parents, peers and culture (geographic and social)). That alone makes it a given and not a choice. Once a person gains maturity they may choose 1 or 2.

 

[Retro Rob]

Why did you not answer what you believe to be reality regarding your god?

Because you are trying to keep the focus on me instead of addressing the falsehood I exposed about atheists logically gathering as product of "critical thinking".

Do you think this guy thinks for himself?

Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:28

I don't care if that guy "thinks for himself".

 

[alzan]

So what? Logic only deals with language anyway. Logic doesn't matter when weighed against reality. I can make a logical arguement that life has never existed on Mars, but upon finding life, what happens to that "logic"?

Second, atheists are delivered to the "same place" for the same reason theists are delivered to the "same place"...they simply universally agree on their lack of belief in the existence of dieties, other than that, they agree on very little.

Colour me shocked!

Sorry for Off Topic, CT

Logic is not just about language, it's a framework by which we reason and come to conclusions about a given topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

 

[SlowSpyder]

Because you are trying to keep the focus on me instead of addressing the falsehood I exposed about atheists logically gathering as product of "critical thinking".

I don't see where you have exposed this "falsehood". Could you explain that again? I came to my conclusions by myself. This is true of many atheists, they think for themselves and come to similar conclusions and talking points. It isn't just repeating, it is where logic points too.

I don't care if that guy "thinks for himself".

Me either. But the point is that many of the faithful are sheeple like this guy. I'd say that is something that happens much more with believers than atheists.

 

[Exophase]

I think that common spiritual inference has been influenced by the subconscious. Separating the stuff that happens internally in your mind from what happens externally isn't really that intuitive, even though today pretty much everyone understands that there's more that goes on internally than our conscious thought process. So dreams and hallucinations are interpreted to be spiritual visions/messages, and near death experiences are interpreted as afterlife experiences.

To make things more confusing, a lot of human subconscious/psyche is instinctual/biologically influenced, so a lot of people have similar dreams and near death experiences, even to the point where it transcends local culture.

 

[Retro Rob]

True although a person's religion or belief system is, initially at least, defined by it's upbringing (parents, peers and culture (geographic and social)). That alone makes it a given and not a choice. Once a person gains maturity they may choose 1 or 2.

And what doesn't this apply to?

You say that as if it's a bad thing. People born in poltically active homes are likely to be politically active people (See: Bush family, Clinton Family), people born in non-religious homes are likey to be non-religious people, etc, etc, etc...

This is a fact...applicable to almost any family. People are products of their envrionment.

 

[alzan]

And what doesn't this apply to?

You say that as if it's a bad thing. People born in poltically active homes are likely to be politically active people (See: Bush family, Clinton Family), people born in non-religious homes are likey to be non-religious people, etc, etc, etc...

This is a fact...applicable to almost any family. People are products of their envrionment.

Actually you interpreted it as my saying it's a bad thing.

 

[JEDIYoda]

A lot of atheists have similar talking points because critical thinking will point people in the same direction.

Your giving Atheists more credit than they deserve...critical thinking or perhaps they don`t have the Faith to believe in God!!

 

[Retro Rob]

Actually you interpreted it as my saying it's a bad thing.

It's often a point used to castigate religious people, when, in the same breath, those same people pass down what they hold to be true to their own kids.

 

[alzan]

It's often a point used to castigate religious people, when, in the same breath, those same people pass down what they hold to be true to their own kids.

Persecution, then. Got it.

 

[Retro Rob]

Persecution, then. Got it.

You finally got it!

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

And what doesn't this apply to?

You say that as if it's a bad thing. People born in poltically active homes are likely to be politically active people (See: Bush family, Clinton Family), people born in non-religious homes are likey to be non-religious people, etc, etc, etc...

This is a fact...applicable to almost any family. People are products of their envrionment.

More importantly, this fact strongly suggests that theistic belief is a product of culture and tradition, not a product of objective investigation.

 

[soulcougher73]

And what doesn't this apply to?

You say that as if it's a bad thing. People born in poltically active homes are likely to be politically active people (See: Bush family, Clinton Family), people born in non-religious homes are likey to be non-religious people, etc, etc, etc...

This is a fact...applicable to almost any family. People are products of their envrionment.

I believe this as well. But had you been born into a non Christian family in say India you would be trumpeting a new toon other than Christianity.

 

[alzan]

More importantly, this fact strongly suggests that theistic belief is a product of culture and tradition, not a product of objective investigation.

The rules and technics of objective investigation should have more stress in our schools both public and private. They are of tremendous use in more areas than just belief systems.

 

[Retro Rob]

I believe this as well. But had you been born into a non Christian family in say India you would be trumpeting a new toon other than Christianity.

And if you were born a XYX, you'd be trumpeting XYZ instead of Agnosticism.

C'mon...we can do this all day. I think the point is that no matter how you arrive at a belief, that doesn't make it either true or false.

 

[Retro Rob]

More importantly, this fact strongly suggests that theistic belief is a product of culture and tradition, not a product of objective investigation.

So are you admitting that folks born in a secular home, not exposed to religion by their parents, that remain secular as adults are likewise following their parents tradition, parental tradition dedicated to raising "godless children" instead of being allowed to choose for themselves?

We are dedicated to helping parents worldwide to raise well-educated, thoughtful, ethical, socially responsible, environmentally aware, and most importantly, godless children.

http://www.atheistparents.org/

You do realize that depending on how you answer, you're bound to be either inconsistent in you application of this fact, or admitting that people born in every tradition maintain that tradition apart from any objective reasoning and investigation.

 

[Moonbeam]

Whether you believe that God is God or state of being depends on the personal history of a person who experiences enlightenment. The question of whether there is a God or not without that experience is meaningless. One either believes is something he doesn't know, or doesn't. In either of these conditions one doesn't know anything.

 

[alzan]

So are you admitting that folks born in a secular home, not exposed to religion by their parents, that remain secular as adults are likewise following their parents tradition, parental tradition dedicated to raising "godless children" instead of being allowed to choose for themselves?

http://www.atheistparents.org/

You do realize that depending on how you answer, you're bound to be either inconsistent in you application of this fact, or admitting that people born in every tradition maintain that tradition apart from any objective reasoning and investigation.

There aren't too many children younger then 12 or even 16 who can successfully navigate information on the various belief systems without a certain level of education and maturity.

Raising a child is one thing; what that child does with the way it was raised once it's a mature adult is quite another.

If a hypothetical couple follows the advice given by atheistparents.org then they are raising an ethical child who will grow into an ethical adult.

 

[Retro Rob]

If a hypothetical couple follows the advice given by atheistparents.org then they are raising an ethical child who will grow into an ethical adult.

The advice given about raising a "well-educated, thoughtful, ethical, socially responsible, environmentally aware" child is what every parent tries to do to the best of their ability...however, "above all, godless children"?

"Above all"?

How can that be more important than the preceding attributes? If a "well-educated" person would by default be irreligious (as preached as gospel in the atheist community at large), then why does teaching kids that God doesn't exists take bigger importance?

I could see if they said "above all, skeptical children"...that would be more in tune with what atheists say they really are, but they'd rather think for their kids, and raise them to be "atheist kids". (See the Title of the book)

http://www.atheistparents.org/recommended-books/interview-with-lance-gregorchuk/

Why is it good advice to label a child an "atheist"? I thought atheist parents were proponents of letter their kids choose for themselves?

 

[JD50]

And if you were born a XYX, you'd be trumpeting XYZ instead of Agnosticism.

C'mon...we can do this all day. I think the point is that no matter how you arrive at a belief, that doesn't make it either true or false.

You repeatedly miss the point that people are making when they bring this up.

 

[Retro Rob]

You repeatedly miss the point that people are making when they bring this up.

Well, perhaps you can explain it in a much simpler way for me, then.

 

[JD50]

So are you admitting that folks born in a secular home, not exposed to religion by their parents, that remain secular as adults are likewise following their parents tradition, parental tradition dedicated to raising "godless children" instead of being allowed to choose for themselves?

http://www.atheistparents.org/

You do realize that depending on how you answer, you're bound to be either inconsistent in you application of this fact, or admitting that people born in every tradition maintain that tradition apart from any objective reasoning and investigation.

Do you understand the difference between raising children in a religion and raising children outside of a religion? Atheism is not a tradition. If I never introduce my children to religion, never take them to church, never mention God, etc... that is not a tradition.

I don't care about whatever atheist website you can dig up, it's irrelevant.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I don't care about whatever atheist website you can dig up, it's irrelevant.

<--- this is the crux of his argument.....if the Atheist website does not agree with what JD thinks then it is irrelevant. That`s convenient....

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

So are you admitting that folks born in a secular home, not exposed to religion by their parents, that remain secular as adults are likewise following their parents tradition, parental tradition dedicated to raising "godless children" instead of being allowed to choose for themselves?

No, my statement specifically mentioned theistic belief. Please try to follow along.

http://www.atheistparents.org/

You do realize that depending on how you answer, you're bound to be either inconsistent in you application of this fact, or admitting that people born in every tradition maintain that tradition apart from any objective reasoning and investigation.

Theistic belief is an acquired belief. Atheism is the lack of an acquired theistic belief. That isn't to say there aren't going to be atheist parents that condition their children accordingly, but their existence is irrelevant to the principle described in my earlier comments which it seems you were unable to grasp successfully.