?THE ?TEXAS MIRACLE? IS A MYTH?
- Thread starter Ferocious
- Start date
Oh but the source is such a liberal pinko commie information outlet. Wait, it isn't!
Oh well, the RepubliKlans will find a way to discredit the source rather than address the lie. Oh my, did BUSHLITE tell a LIE????!!!!
No Way!
Oh well, the RepubliKlans will find a way to discredit the source rather than address the lie. Oh my, did BUSHLITE tell a LIE????!!!!
No Way!
Bush said on Nightline last night that it was an opinion of a single researcher at Rand, NOT an official Rand report. Also, anyone notice that this is coming out two weeks before the election when it's been around for a few months.
It's just more Gore spin and lies to BS you into voting away your money and freedom. Drink up.
It's just more Gore spin and lies to BS you into voting away your money and freedom. Drink up.
The timing of this is highly suspect, obviously part of someone's agenda. As such, any conclusions the RAND institution draws are equally highly suspect.
Furtermore, Shrub never claimed that the federal test scores went up in his state, only that the state examination scores went up -- which they did. As the governor of Texas, he bases his evaluations on how students do on Texas examinations, not federal ones.
The article also points out that Texas school officials may have been paying a lot of attention to preparing students for the Texas examinations (making it seem like a bad thing). We could only hope that the teachers across the nation spend so much time with students helping them prepare.
Of course, there's also the controversy about the methodology of the study. Given the timing of the release, I have major misgivings about the validity of the methodology.
Had this report been released 3 months ago, or 3 months down the road, I would have a much easier time believing any of the conclusions.
Furtermore, Shrub never claimed that the federal test scores went up in his state, only that the state examination scores went up -- which they did. As the governor of Texas, he bases his evaluations on how students do on Texas examinations, not federal ones.
The article also points out that Texas school officials may have been paying a lot of attention to preparing students for the Texas examinations (making it seem like a bad thing). We could only hope that the teachers across the nation spend so much time with students helping them prepare.
Of course, there's also the controversy about the methodology of the study. Given the timing of the release, I have major misgivings about the validity of the methodology.
Had this report been released 3 months ago, or 3 months down the road, I would have a much easier time believing any of the conclusions.
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,389
- 29
- 91
Obviously we are dealing with a couple poster boys for "outcome based education".
I'll just repost a copy'n paste from Yesterday's thread with nearly the identical title:
Let's examine a couple quotes from that article and see what's what:
<< In fact, while Texas found the gaps in achievement shrinking between white and non-white students, the national tests showed them actually increasing slightly in some areas. >>
<< ....a number of other studies, including one released by the RAND Corp. in July, showed Texas among those leading the nation in reducing the achievement gap between white and non-white students. >>
Why, I wonder, does this latest Rand Corp. "study", which just happens to be released 2 weeks prior to an election that GWB appears to be headed to victory, not jive with the earlier Rand Corp. study with no explanation?
I'm sure you can "guess" what conclusion I've drawn.....
I'll just repost a copy'n paste from Yesterday's thread with nearly the identical title:
Let's examine a couple quotes from that article and see what's what:
<< In fact, while Texas found the gaps in achievement shrinking between white and non-white students, the national tests showed them actually increasing slightly in some areas. >>
<< ....a number of other studies, including one released by the RAND Corp. in July, showed Texas among those leading the nation in reducing the achievement gap between white and non-white students. >>
Why, I wonder, does this latest Rand Corp. "study", which just happens to be released 2 weeks prior to an election that GWB appears to be headed to victory, not jive with the earlier Rand Corp. study with no explanation?
I'm sure you can "guess" what conclusion I've drawn.....
The report does not jive with an earlier report by RAND?
Another LIE!
This is ADDITIONAL DATA, not contradictory opinion!
Anyone accusing the RAND corporation of liberal bias should have their heads examined, or they should check up on what RAND is all about.
As I said, if you cannot answer the facts with a cogent argument, attack the source. If the ENTIRE RAND corporation had signed this statement, would it have made a difference????
Another LIE!
This is ADDITIONAL DATA, not contradictory opinion!
Anyone accusing the RAND corporation of liberal bias should have their heads examined, or they should check up on what RAND is all about.
As I said, if you cannot answer the facts with a cogent argument, attack the source. If the ENTIRE RAND corporation had signed this statement, would it have made a difference????
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,389
- 29
- 91
I'm Typing, I'm sorry but who's lying here? Tell ya what, I'll supply the facts while you suck on them. :
<< A recently released analysis by the RAND Corp. of that national assessment test from 1990 to 1996 found that improvements have taken hold in Texas. The study said that Texas, along with North Carolina, had the "highest rate of improvement" in education, with gains more than twice the national average. >>
<< A recently released analysis by the RAND Corp. of that national assessment test from 1990 to 1996 found that improvements have taken hold in Texas. The study said that Texas, along with North Carolina, had the "highest rate of improvement" in education, with gains more than twice the national average. >>
"Bush said on Nightline last night that it was an opinion of a single researcher at Rand, NOT an official Rand report."
We all know that Dirk bends at the waist for Jr Bush, but where are the facts to back up this assertion? The article begins by stating that the study is from the Rand Corp. I don't see anything that states it was the work of a single researcher. Even if it were just one researcher's work, the article makes it clear that Rand stands behind it.
Oh those mettlesome facts again!
By the way, if it is found that Jr Bush's programs incent teachers to train students to pass a test (state or Federal) rather than think critically, then I suggest that his incentives are a dismal failure.
We all know that Dirk bends at the waist for Jr Bush, but where are the facts to back up this assertion? The article begins by stating that the study is from the Rand Corp. I don't see anything that states it was the work of a single researcher. Even if it were just one researcher's work, the article makes it clear that Rand stands behind it.
Oh those mettlesome facts again!
By the way, if it is found that Jr Bush's programs incent teachers to train students to pass a test (state or Federal) rather than think critically, then I suggest that his incentives are a dismal failure.
I'm still reading over the RAND report now, but there do appear to be some flaws in it. Methinks there was some political basis for this report albeit couched in academic protestations of neutrality:
<< Understanding the source and consequences of the impressive score gains on the TAAS would require an extensive independent study. We have not done that. >>
Hmmm...
What strikes me about the report is that it fails to compare the current state of Texas education with what it was before the institution of the TAAS and before 1994. If Texas was indeed behind the rest of the nation and has now reversed the trend to where it is at pace or better than national improvement (4th grade math is significantly higher than the nationwide average -- not a minor feat) then I'd say there has been a "Texas miracle". Since the data for this report stops at 1998, perhaps that trend has continued and the disparity between Texas improvement and national improvement has continued to increase in favor of Texas. We don't know that since the next implementation of the NAEP tests is not until 2002.
And here we have a nice admission at the end of the report:
<< The data available for this report were not ideal. >>
It smacks of somewhat sloppy research to me, especially in light of the election, which makes the entire report circumspect. RAND has somewhat liberal leanings just as The Heritage Foundation is considered a conservative think tank. I can see their point about accountability and coaching increasing test scores on the TAAS, but they are now basically encouraging coaching for the NAEP tests. Plus, as I said, they fail to address the trend in Texas education over a longer period of time which is a critical failure in the analysis of an improvement in education scores.
The sum total of this report is to show that there's a disparity between the NAEP results and the TAAS results. That's about it. In that article on MSNBC, meanwhile, the RAND researchers never do address why there's a difference in a previous RAND report which praises the gains that Texas has made (need to read that one, too). That's somewhat telling to me.
One more edit: Just because RAND is considered "more or less" politically neutral (I've always seen RAND as being centrist to slightly left leaning), it does NOT mean by any stretch of the imagination that the researchers involved do not have an underlying political bias.
<< Understanding the source and consequences of the impressive score gains on the TAAS would require an extensive independent study. We have not done that. >>
Hmmm...
What strikes me about the report is that it fails to compare the current state of Texas education with what it was before the institution of the TAAS and before 1994. If Texas was indeed behind the rest of the nation and has now reversed the trend to where it is at pace or better than national improvement (4th grade math is significantly higher than the nationwide average -- not a minor feat) then I'd say there has been a "Texas miracle". Since the data for this report stops at 1998, perhaps that trend has continued and the disparity between Texas improvement and national improvement has continued to increase in favor of Texas. We don't know that since the next implementation of the NAEP tests is not until 2002.
And here we have a nice admission at the end of the report:
<< The data available for this report were not ideal. >>
It smacks of somewhat sloppy research to me, especially in light of the election, which makes the entire report circumspect. RAND has somewhat liberal leanings just as The Heritage Foundation is considered a conservative think tank. I can see their point about accountability and coaching increasing test scores on the TAAS, but they are now basically encouraging coaching for the NAEP tests. Plus, as I said, they fail to address the trend in Texas education over a longer period of time which is a critical failure in the analysis of an improvement in education scores.
The sum total of this report is to show that there's a disparity between the NAEP results and the TAAS results. That's about it. In that article on MSNBC, meanwhile, the RAND researchers never do address why there's a difference in a previous RAND report which praises the gains that Texas has made (need to read that one, too). That's somewhat telling to me.
One more edit: Just because RAND is considered "more or less" politically neutral (I've always seen RAND as being centrist to slightly left leaning), it does NOT mean by any stretch of the imagination that the researchers involved do not have an underlying political bias.
I'm A Dolt, you are either very naive or very stupid if you don't question the timing of this report. And since that timing is extremely suspect, any sane person MUST take any conclusions with a grain of salt. Further, just because one researcher draws some conclusion does not mean the RAND institute as a whole does. And of course, there's still the matter of contradicting information with an earlier 'official' report. You really have to delve into the details of the methodology to see if the research was done correctly, but with the conclusions and the timing in hand, you can pretty much already know that it's just another political ploy.
tagej: Starting out a reply with a juvenile put-down leads one to believe that you do not have a mature attitude when it comes to dealing with others. You also obviously do not have a mature attitude when it comes to dealing with the facts. By stating that this is the opinion of one RAND researcher tells me that you will believe whatever crap bushlite feeds you. If I recall correctly, there were 16 people signing off on this report originally. Then the bushlite attack dogs call a conference and say it is four people. Then bushlite gets on TV and says it is one person...The way it is going, the republiKlans will soon start saying that NOBODY in the RAND corporation put out this report!
As if impugning the character of the person filing the report invalidates the data. If the conservatives in this country spent half as much time and energy coming up with effective policies as they do trying to tear down the democrats, I might consider changing sides in this political race.
OKOKOK, I wouldn't!
As if impugning the character of the person filing the report invalidates the data. If the conservatives in this country spent half as much time and energy coming up with effective policies as they do trying to tear down the democrats, I might consider changing sides in this political race.
OKOKOK, I wouldn't!
Uh-Huh....Yeah......Oh, Well, One FACT Is Still Definate......The TN TREE Is Still A Liar! Latest reports show it's pretty clear now.......algore won't even carry his Home State! Sad really......Neither of them are Great........ algore just Really Sucks!
Red, you inflation-causing consumer! I deposited mine into my passbook savings account. With a Texas education, 2% was the highest number to which we counted. So I am sure I got the top rate.
I don't see a problem. The worse the education system in the U.S. is, the more we, well educated immigrants, get paid.
<< Starting out a reply with a juvenile put-down leads one to believe that you do not have a mature attitude when it comes to dealing with others >>
And yet you use the juvenile put-down "republiKlans" repeatedly. Yeah, real mature attitude there.
Unfortunately, we can't have Bill Clinton again, and Al Gore is as far to the left of Clinton as GWB is to the right. Whoever gets closest to the center will get my vote.
<< Al Gore himself reportedly played a major role in a decision that deprived some 150,000 Texas children of the chance for health coverage. In 1995, Gov. Bush sought permission from the Clinton-Gore administration to allow private contractors to administer some aspects of Texas' Health and Human Services programs and generate savings that would be used directly to provide health insurance for uninsured children. According to Kenneth Weinstein, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute, the Bush plan would have saved more than $10 million a month, enough to pay for health coverage for 150,000 children. Writing in the Weekly Standard recently, Weinstein reports that Al Gore, bowing to pressure from the AFL-CIO, helped kill the Texas plan in 1997. The unions were worried that Bush's plan would cost public sector jobs, not just in Texas, but elsewhere if it succeeded and other states followed suit. They threatened to withhold support for Gore's impending presidential run. Gore sided with the unions instead of the kids, and persuaded Bill Clinton to nix the Bush plan. >>
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/chavez.html
brandc: Your qoute is from an extremely conservative site which in turn quotes another extremely conservative site.
Sorry but it's meaningless.
Sorry but it's meaningless.
brandc - I would think it's possible, but the source is using hearsay evidence and has a pretty clearly stated right wing agenda. Not very helpfull.
jjm: I do NOT bend over for Dubya! I just believe that GORE IS SUCK!!!
This new report is an "issue paper", NOT a study. Back in July, Rand released a 245 page study that was, this is key, PEER-REVIEWED. It concluded that test scores for minority students were up in Texas. This new paper was NOT peer-reviewed and focused on the fact that STATE test scores showed higher gains than the NATIONAL scores and he thought that there might be some chicanery going on. (i.e. Teachers teaching the test for max score.) The new paper does not DISCREDIT the previous study and the New York Times (THE liberal paper) agrees that scores are up.
The differences between the two studies is like if NASA released a report that the Moon was made of rocks and dirt and some disgruntled partisan said, "No, it's not. It's made of green cheese.", and then makes up a report that doesn't disprove the rocks one, but just says, "It's cheese!"
The election looks to be close and the liberals are so desperate to maintain power to enslave the public that they'll whip out any LIES then can because they know that the public is fairly stupid and prone to believe whatever the media says. Ed Anser is doing phone call recordings that tell old folks that the Republicans plan to take away their SocSecurity, which is a GODDAMN LIE!!!!
Democrats are relying on the old stand-bys: Lies and fearmongering. "The GOP wants to lynch black folk. (BTW: I'm Typing...if you type 'RepubliKlans' one more time, I'm gonna drag your bigoted bitchass behind my SUV) The GOP wants to starve Grandma. The GOP wants to force women to have babies against their will. The GOP wants to give all your money to Bill Gates. The GOP has a secret stash of air and water that they're gonna use while they destroy the planet." If you believe ANY of this malarkey, then you deserve the thrashing you get!
Too many people are ignorant of the actual positions of the candidates. They're being influenced by the liberal media who have a stake in keeping their boys in office and by attack ads that use outrageous lies to frighten voters. The media spent days over the "RATS" ad, but doesn't mention a word about Gore keeping secrets from Congress concerning Russia's arms sales to Iran. Why is that? Hmmm?
My drummer has an MBA (go figure), and was undecided about who to vote for. By the time I got thru explaining the FACTS to him, he was solidly behind Bush, not because Dubya is such great shakes, but because Gore is a disaster.
Question: Would you go to a mechanic, doctor or accountant is you knew that he/she was a liar and lawbreaker? If not, why are you willing to vote for a liar and lawbreaker?
This new report is an "issue paper", NOT a study. Back in July, Rand released a 245 page study that was, this is key, PEER-REVIEWED. It concluded that test scores for minority students were up in Texas. This new paper was NOT peer-reviewed and focused on the fact that STATE test scores showed higher gains than the NATIONAL scores and he thought that there might be some chicanery going on. (i.e. Teachers teaching the test for max score.) The new paper does not DISCREDIT the previous study and the New York Times (THE liberal paper) agrees that scores are up.
The differences between the two studies is like if NASA released a report that the Moon was made of rocks and dirt and some disgruntled partisan said, "No, it's not. It's made of green cheese.", and then makes up a report that doesn't disprove the rocks one, but just says, "It's cheese!"
The election looks to be close and the liberals are so desperate to maintain power to enslave the public that they'll whip out any LIES then can because they know that the public is fairly stupid and prone to believe whatever the media says. Ed Anser is doing phone call recordings that tell old folks that the Republicans plan to take away their SocSecurity, which is a GODDAMN LIE!!!!
Democrats are relying on the old stand-bys: Lies and fearmongering. "The GOP wants to lynch black folk. (BTW: I'm Typing...if you type 'RepubliKlans' one more time, I'm gonna drag your bigoted bitchass behind my SUV) The GOP wants to starve Grandma. The GOP wants to force women to have babies against their will. The GOP wants to give all your money to Bill Gates. The GOP has a secret stash of air and water that they're gonna use while they destroy the planet." If you believe ANY of this malarkey, then you deserve the thrashing you get!
Too many people are ignorant of the actual positions of the candidates. They're being influenced by the liberal media who have a stake in keeping their boys in office and by attack ads that use outrageous lies to frighten voters. The media spent days over the "RATS" ad, but doesn't mention a word about Gore keeping secrets from Congress concerning Russia's arms sales to Iran. Why is that? Hmmm?
My drummer has an MBA (go figure), and was undecided about who to vote for. By the time I got thru explaining the FACTS to him, he was solidly behind Bush, not because Dubya is such great shakes, but because Gore is a disaster.
Question: Would you go to a mechanic, doctor or accountant is you knew that he/she was a liar and lawbreaker? If not, why are you willing to vote for a liar and lawbreaker?
<< Would you go to a mechanic, doctor or accountant is you knew that he/she was a liar and lawbreaker? >>
I notice that you left out "lawyer". LOL
Dirk, your missing the whole point.
These students did relatively great on their state test scores. But in national tests this was not the case.
These students did relatively great on their state test scores. But in national tests this was not the case.
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