The Super Supercapacitor?

[IronWing]

I was mulling over this issue in the EV thread in the Garage sub-forum, and one solution that I thought of might actually work... but it has some serious downsides. Essentially, to be able to charge cars rapidly, we add another point of storage right at the end-point. My thought is that it would sort of be like the electric equivalent of a water heater... or a gigantic version of one of those mobile device chargers. The idea is that it's always connected to the grid, and that could allow it to draw power in at a slower rate to keep itself full, and you draw power from it much faster when you need it.

The biggest downside that I can think of is... cost. It would essentially require what is almost an equivalent amount of energy storage as what exists in your EV, and those batteries are stupidly expensive. People probably already balk at the idea of paying $2k for a faster charger, which gets subsidized anyway, and I can't imagine telling them that they would need to pay around $10k for a super-fast-yet-power-line-conscious charger.

EDIT:

...or... we beef the hell out of our power line system!

Wouldn't it be easier to have swappable battery packs on EV cars? Have one pack on the charger while driving with the other one?

 

[FelixDeCat]

Is it too late to patent this process?

A method that produces graphene capacitors using a device that spins graphite oxide on a removable platter under a laser light. The laser light converts the oxide into graphpene which can then be used to create a supercapacitor.

Patent pending.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Wouldn't it be easier to have swappable battery packs on EV cars? Have one pack on the charger while driving with the other one?

Only if you are staying within the packs range.

You need an EV car that can provide a range of 300miles and able to be recharged to 50% inside an hour.

Otherwise one could carry a spare pack and double the range.
Either way; the range for a pack needs to expand 300% to make it viable for replacing an ICE.

And bring the cost to the consumer down to a point where it is not a feel good/status symbol.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Is it too late to patent this process?

A method that produces graphene capacitors using a device that spins graphite oxide on a removable platter under a laser light. The laser light converts the oxide into graphpene which can then be used to create a supercapacitor.

Patent pending.

I could see the oil industry doing this if they see it as a threat. Hopefully these scientists think of patenting it first but keeping it open for anyone to use so it will actually see the light of day.

 

[Aikouka]

Wouldn't it be easier to have swappable battery packs on EV cars? Have one pack on the charger while driving with the other one?

Probably not. I have two thoughts on it... ease of user-replacement and weight. Proper weight distribution is an aspect of car design that tends to matter more in racing or sports-related implementations, but it still has a place in average vehicles. Since the batteries have a modest weight, simply tossing them in an easy-to-access stack in the trunk may leave the vehicle imbalanced. Also, if we go back to weight, I don't think it's feasible to ask people to swap batteries like they're dealing with a cell phone.

The "electric water heater method" (as I'll dub it) is just not cost effective, but it theoretically would work fine. You could also prolong life by only using it when you absolutely need a quick charge. If you're just plugging it in overnight, fall back on the standard charger.

 

[FelixDeCat]

I could see the oil industry doing this if they see it as a threat. Hopefully these scientists think of patenting it first but keeping it open for anyone to use so it will actually see the light of day.

Being that this was done at UCLA, Ill bet they probably have their bases covered. The article mentions that they are trying to find industrial applications which would imply industrial strength production methods.*

*=A DVD farm.

 

[SagaLore]

This has military applications as a seriously strong EMP power source.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Being that this was done at UCLA, Ill bet they probably have their bases covered. The article mentions that they are trying to find industrial applications which would imply industrial strength production methods.*

*=A DVD farm.

Maybe they're going to build a supercomputer with TWO dvd burners!

Remember the days when that was considered super high end? :biggrin:

 

[Howard]

Maybe they're going to build a supercomputer with TWO dvd burners!

Remember the days when that was considered super high end? :biggrin:

I remember when advertisers multiplied the speed of one drive by the number of drives to get the ticketed speed of the system. Shit, 256X from 8 drives!

 

[BladeVenom]

They've been working on supercapacitors for 50+ years.

 

[Rubycon]

I remember when advertisers multiplied the speed of one drive by the number of drives to get the ticketed speed of the system. Shit, 256X from 8 drives!

Or the people calling a 3GHz Core2Quad a 12GHz computer! :biggrin:

 

[Jeff7]

Or the people calling a 3GHz Core2Quad a 12GHz computer! :biggrin:

Or the hype about buying a better Intel CPU, to enhance your Internet experience!

I think 56k modems were all the rage at the time. A CPU was not the bottleneck then. However, "Internet" was a term that marketing departments loved to shoehorn in anywhere they could.

 

[wirednuts]

Someone finally found a use for lightscribe drives!

YES! probably the least used feature in the history of computing.

 

[Possessed Freak]

YES! probably the least used feature in the history of computing.

Rambus...

 

[Howard]

Rambus...

That's not a feature though.

 

[Rubycon]

Or the hype about buying a better Intel CPU, to enhance your Internet experience!

I think 56k modems were all the rage at the time. A CPU was not the bottleneck then. However, "Internet" was a term that marketing departments loved to shoehorn in anywhere they could.

But but butt lemme tell you about that <real playa> buffering buffering buffering...you don't get that with the netburst pipeline! :biggrin:

Even less used than lightscribe was a Yamaha exclusive - disc t@2 (tatoo) which could burn an image on the data side in an area of the disc that was unwritten. If you had 700MB on a disc you were out of luck...

 

[Fenixgoon]

http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/15641i/being_able_to_charge_a_cell_phone_in_30s_is/c7jp1cc



Work is exciting that they developed an easy way to produce graphene but the capacity is not there yet with Lithium Ion batteries.

capacitors and batteries are two completely different ballgames.

with batteries, you are looking for long storage and relatively slow discharge. total amount of energy is the important part (volts*amps*hours)

with capacitors, you are looking for short storage with a very fast discharge rate. power output tends to be the driving parameter (volts*amps) as opposed to the total amount of energy (after all, you can always just add more)

the flash in a camera? capacitor driven, because you need to release a lot of energy in a short period of time. energy/time = power. you need high power output for the flash to operate.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Actually if you read the paper, they are able to achieve energy densities very close to common lithium cells. While it does not come near the energy density of gas, it can also be built into a car in ways a gas tank never could. Also this is very early stage research(first paper published on the technique), so I expect the energy density to improve in short order.

In the end, what this does is say that an electric car could become main stream as charging times can be brought down to minutes instead of hours and the energy storage medium will now last significantly longer(current battery tech needs replacement in ~5 years, capacitors tend to have a significantly longer useful life).

 

[Red Squirrel]

Loads only pull the amps they need, so a capacitor will only discharge as fast as it's being asked to. I think it could definitely work.

 

[gorobei]

Actually if you read the paper, they are able to achieve energy densities very close to common lithium cells. While it does not come near the energy density of gas, it can also be built into a car in ways a gas tank never could. Also this is very early stage research(first paper published on the technique), so I expect the energy density to improve in short order.

In the end, what this does is say that an electric car could become main stream as charging times can be brought down to minutes instead of hours and the energy storage medium will now last significantly longer(current battery tech needs replacement in ~5 years, capacitors tend to have a significantly longer useful life).

just adding: if you watch the video, the lab researcher charges it for 2 sec and the led runs for 3 min. enough of these in parallel/series should last long enough for all sorts of applications.

 

[keird]

But but butt lemme tell you about that <real playa> buffering buffering buffering...you don't get that with the netburst pipeline! :biggrin:

Even less used than lightscribe was a Yamaha exclusive - disc t@2 (tatoo) which could burn an image on the data side in an area of the disc that was unwritten. If you had 700MB on a disc you were out of luck...

Strangely, I have both of these. In fact the LightScribe as my primary DVD burner. How do I make this stuff?

Edit: $160 for half a kilo? I don't know... I might just wait for the consumer grade stuff. Can this be a fuel cell for solar or wind energy storage?

Edit: Here's a paper answering my question about fuel cells. Conclusion: Yes, graphene is looking like a pretty good bet for fuel cells.

Searching for new sustainable energy is a global issue given the likely depletion of current resources. Recently,researchers are showing much interest in graphene based study for energy devices, such as fuel cells and capacitors. Because graphene has been demonstrated to possess a good electrical conductivity and high surface area due to its unique 2-D structure, it is expected to be one of the best suitable base-materials for developing alternative energy sources. In this review, recent significant progress in graphene-based energy systems is summarized by presenting some representive examples, which can be listed as follows: (1)graphene
supportedPt,Ptalloyandgraphene-basedmetal-free
catalystshavedemonstratedenhancedelectrocalyticacitivy
withcyclestabilityforfuelcells,and(2)introductionof
grapheneasrGO,nitrogen-dopedgraphene,graphene/car-
bon materialcomposites,grapehne/polyemrcomposites,
andgraphene/metaloxidecompositesdisplaybetterpower
density,energydensityandcapacitanceforcapacitiors.
Thesenewhybridmaterialshaveproventodemonstrate
superbpotentialforcommerciallizationviabilityovernoble
metal-basedexpensivecatalystsandconventionalcapaci-
tors.However,therearestillbigroomsinenergyconversion
andstoragesystemsforfurtherimprovementsintermsof
overallperformanceandscalablelow-costproduction.We
hopethisreviewcanprovidevaluableinsightstoreserchers
for gainfurtherknowledgetospeedupnovelinnovationinthisarea. There should be bright future and no speed limit
on graphene-way for new energy sources.

 

[wirednuts]

Actually if you read the paper, they are able to achieve energy densities very close to common lithium cells. While it does not come near the energy density of gas, it can also be built into a car in ways a gas tank never could. Also this is very early stage research(first paper published on the technique), so I expect the energy density to improve in short order.

In the end, what this does is say that an electric car could become main stream as charging times can be brought down to minutes instead of hours and the energy storage medium will now last significantly longer(current battery tech needs replacement in ~5 years, capacitors tend to have a significantly longer useful life).

with supercapacitors as intended, there should be more like 1 second charge times. thats where i see electric vehicles being in a couple decades. just pull into a solar station, plug in, green light blinks after a second and off you go.

 

[Pohemi]

Or the people calling a 3GHz Core2Quad a 12GHz computer! :biggrin:

You mean my computer isn't 27GHz? Goddamnit. :biggrin:

 

[keird]

Update:

Kannappan and co have measured the performance of their supercapacitor and are clearly impressed with the results. They say it has a specific capacitance of over 150 Farrads per gram can store energy at a density of more than 64 watt-hours per kilogram at a current density of 5 amps per gram.

That&#8217;s almost comparable with lithium-ion batteries, which have an energy density of between 100 and 200 watt-hours per kilogram.

Link

The prototype of the supercapacitor was made using graphene composite material prepared using a proprietary technology developed at Graphene Labs. The measured specific capacitance of the prototype was found to be around 500 Farad per gram of the material. This value is comparable with the best values reported in the literature for a supercapacitor of this type.

Link

That last link is close to the theoretical maximum of 550 Farad. If I'm reading this right you could pack around 4,000 watts per kilogram. We've come a long way in the last few months.

 

[Red Squirrel]

edit nm, just realized this is an old thread

Cool to see there is progress though. Let's just hope nobody patents this.