The Sham of a Mockery of an Obama Jobs Summit

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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I stopped reading after the first line of the OP.

And yet you posted. I guess ignorance, like justice, must be seen to be done? If you ignore an article and tell no one, did you actually maintain your ignorance? LOL

Rainsford, the Democrats and Republicans in Congress do care about fixing the economy, they just have diametrically opposed views on how to do that. Democrats think smart people in government need to manage the economy to help not-so-smart people in the private sector maximize economic strength and actively prevent dishonest people in the private sector from taking a disproportionate share. Republicans think not-so-smart people in government need to keep their hands off the economy to allow smart people in the private sector maximize economic strength and punish dishonest people after they do those dishonest things. Democrat theories give more stability; Republican theories produce more wealth. Democrats think wealth should be continuously and fairly redistributed by smart people in government because that produces a more fair and equitable society. Republicans think wealth should largely be kept by the people who earn it, with government taking as little as needed for those functions with which it is constitutionally charged and which we cannot do for ourselves, because that produces a more fair and prosperous society. Democrat theories produce more evenly distributed wealth; Republican theories produce more wealth for the society overall, but that wealth is less evenly owned. Both theories have their good and bad points. I believe both sides lie about what they want to do and will do if given power to get elected, but I also believe both sides want what is best for the American people and either the country (Republicans) or world (Democrats), depending on which they most want to benefit.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
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Again, if free economic forces are the ones "creating some 'green' jobs", why not? Who would be against that?

But government doesn't "create" jobs, at least anything that's sustainable.

There are armies of accountants employed to go through the goverments tax regulations. If that isn't the goverment creating jobs then I don't know what is?
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
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And yet you posted. I guess ignorance, like justice, must be seen to be done? If you ignore an article and tell no one, did you actually maintain your ignorance? LOL

Rainsford, the Democrats and Republicans in Congress do care about fixing the economy, they just have diametrically opposed views on how to do that. Democrats think smart people in government need to manage the economy to help not-so-smart people in the private sector maximize economic strength and actively prevent dishonest people in the private sector from taking a disproportionate share. Republicans think not-so-smart people in government need to keep their hands off the economy to allow smart people in the private sector maximize economic strength and punish dishonest people after they do those dishonest things. Democrat theories give more stability; Republican theories produce more wealth. Democrats think wealth should be continuously and fairly redistributed by smart people in government because that produces a more fair and equitable society. Republicans think wealth should largely be kept by the people who earn it, with government taking as little as needed for those functions with which it is constitutionally charged and which we cannot do for ourselves, because that produces a more fair and prosperous society. Democrat theories produce more evenly distributed wealth; Republican theories produce more wealth for the society overall, but that wealth is less evenly owned. Both theories have their good and bad points. I believe both sides lie about what they want to do and will do if given power to get elected, but I also believe both sides want what is best for the American people and either the country (Republicans) or world (Democrats), depending on which they most want to benefit.

You need an enema because you just pulled this load of shit out of your ass.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
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America can't compete in the global manufacturing space because of government regulation and government spending. Our shit costs so much more to make because we let forces other than the free market dictate how much we have to pay to make it. Look at the difference between California and Texas. California is rife with entitlement programs. Taxes are outrageously high, government spending is out of control, the state is bankrupt, and businesses are fleeing the state to places like Texas in droves.

The U.S. can't compete because there is a huge surplus of desperate, impoverished labor in other countries and the costs of educating and training that labor to work in the factories is not prohibitive. Also, the U.S. tries to reign in environmental costs and externalities by making businesses be responsible for them. It also attempts to increase the quality of life of its citizens with labor laws.

Are you proposing that we eliminate our environmental laws and labor laws and try to be more like the third world? Are you proposing that we decrease our standard of living in the name of competing with fifty-cents-an-hour Chinese?

You can't fix a price problem by spending more money. I'm all for keeping manufacturing in the US, but I'm not going to do so for the sake of a 300% or more price increase.
If we closed our borders to all but natural resources that we cannot obtain in the U.S., it's doubtful the prices would jump 300%. However, you need to also look at the invisible stuff on the back-end: Would wages and hours worked increase to make up for the increased prices? Would negative social costs of unemployment and underemployment decrease?

If the prices of goods and services produced abroad doesn't fall by as great of a percentage as people's wages and also make up for increased resultant negative back-end costs then what good is it?

Bring government spending back to the realm of fiscal responsibility, get rid of needless taxes, and America will again compete in manufacturing.
Even if we did this, even if we ended all environmental and labor regulations, we couldn't compete with the Chinese, Indians, and Mexicans--not unless we wanted to decrease wages and standard of living to those nations' third world levels.

Basically, because those nations have huge surpluses of impoverished labor they'll be able to produce goods and services for lower prices. The only way that America could "compete" would be for it to average out its wages and standard of living with those nations which means that Americans would need to be prepared to join the third world and to take on a third world quality of life. Really--we can have all of our jobs back--just as soon as we're willing to work for third world wages and without environmental and labor regulations.

Entitlement programs like minimum wage and public health care do nothing but drive ALL costs up, because, inevitably, the costs for those products are passed on to consumers.
The costs of the products are passed on to consumers--and some of the consumers receive higher wages than they otherwise might receive and health care, which is a benefit to them and to society. You make it sound as though the money generated by the higher costs just magically disappears.

Is it possible that those higher front-end costs could actually result in a greater decrease in invisible back-end costs? What if providing higher wages and health care for the poor decreased negative social costs such as the costs of the need for welfare and the costs of violent crime? (Why should the lower classes not slaughter the upper classes that are enslaving them? See South America where members of wealthy families are often kidnapped and held for ransom and where the upper classes have to live behind barbed wire and guards.)

Sadly, in the real world where people are interdependent, where land and resources exist in finite limited quantities, and where inherent conflicts of interest come up between rational productive people, the solution to our economic problems is not as simple as just establishing real laissez-faire capitalism (regardless of the fantasy Atlantis you might have read about in Atlas Shrugged or Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal.)
 
Last edited:
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Rainsford, the Democrats and Republicans in Congress do care about fixing the economy, they just have diametrically opposed views on how to do that. Democrats think smart people in government need to manage the economy to help not-so-smart people in the private sector maximize economic strength and actively prevent dishonest people in the private sector from taking a disproportionate share. Republicans think not-so-smart people in government need to keep their hands off the economy to allow smart people in the private sector maximize economic strength and punish dishonest people after they do those dishonest things. Democrat theories give more stability; Republican theories produce more wealth. Democrats think wealth should be continuously and fairly redistributed by smart people in government because that produces a more fair and equitable society. Republicans think wealth should largely be kept by the people who earn it, with government taking as little as needed for those functions with which it is constitutionally charged and which we cannot do for ourselves, because that produces a more fair and prosperous society. Democrat theories produce more evenly distributed wealth; Republican theories produce more wealth for the society overall, but that wealth is less evenly owned. Both theories have their good and bad points. I believe both sides lie about what they want to do and will do if given power to get elected, but I also believe both sides want what is best for the American people and either the country (Republicans) or world (Democrats), depending on which they most want to benefit.

That may be true, but in many regards they are also exactly the same and have essentially the same policies, such as their views on immigration, work visas, and free trade. (For example, McCain, Obama, and Bush all support illegal alien amnesty and thus mass immigration.)

The differences you mentioned almost serve as a distraction from their similarities on these other crucial issues; with regards to nationalism they are almost exactly the same party. It could be said that both parties favor the upper classes while pretending to advocate for the lower classes. I wish our real issues merely involved bickering over those issues that you mentioned. Sadly, while they are bickering over them and while we're distracted, our real problems are not even being acknowledged and they are treating those nationalism-type issues as though the are economic axioms that cannot be questioned or addressed.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
What parts of the "green jobs" cannot be outsourced? If they cannot be outsourced, could they be filled with foreigners on work visas or illegals? For example, the manufacture of wind turbine components could be done less expensively in Mexico or China, so what is it that will keep those "green jobs" in the U.S.? It almost seems like the only parts that couldn't be outsourced would be the physical installation of the wind turbines and transmission wires.

Don't forget the maintenance and control.

I suppose they could make the parts all overseas, but those are some BIG parts and would defintely be hard to ship across salt water.