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THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE 12-27-2004

dmcowen674

No Lifer
THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

One of the most important issues on the forefront of American politics today is the court mandated "separation of church and state." The Supreme Court recently announced it will hear cases from Kentucky and Texas concerning the display of the Ten Commandments on government property. It will be the first time in 25 years that the Supreme Court has addressed the issue. Because of recent events we have decided to take a closer look at the history of the church and state debate.

Over the course of the last forty years there has been a radical shift in the role of the American judicial system, as a result of which our religious freedoms are being stripped away. Those who were appointed to interpret the law and secure justice for the American people have abused their power in order to manipulate public policy. That shift in principle directly hangs on one phrase: separation of church and state. A concept blatantly invented by the United States Supreme Court in order to justify their personal political and social agendas. This concept has eroded the foundation laid by the founding fathers of this nation, a foundation built on the existence an almighty and loving Creator.

First it is important to point out that the words "separation of church and state" are not found anywhere in the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or even the Declaration of Independence. That phrase comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association. The "wall of separation between church and state" that Jefferson referred to in his letter was clearly meant to protect religious freedom and prevent government from attempting to take away our God-given unalienable rights.

So how did the phrase "separation of church and state" become a part of our vocabulary? On June 25, 1962 in Engel v. Vitale the U.S. Supreme Court used the "separation of church and state" argument as its basis for banning prayer in public schools. Their decision marked the turning point in the interpretation of the First Amendment. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The amendment was intended to prevent any one church denomination from becoming a federally established or subsidized denomination. But in 1962 the U.S. Supreme Court ignored 170 years of history, legal precedent, and the clear intent of First Amendment, by interpreting that amendment to prohibit religious activities in public settings. The 1962 ruling was the first case in Supreme Court history that did not cite any previous precedents or legal cases in making its decision. Within a year of the court's ruling Bible reading, religious classes, and religious instruction in public schools were also declared unconstitutional.

In 2000, in Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, the Supreme Court ruled a voluntary student-lead prayer before a football game to be unconstitutional because the student was chosen to speak in an election sanctioned by the school administration. In his dissent to the decision Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote: "...even more disturbing than its holding is the tone of the Court's opinion; it bristles with hostility to all things religious in public life. Neither the holding nor the tone of the opinion is faithful to the meaning of the Establishment Clause, when it is recalled that George Washington himself, at the request of the very Congress which passed the Bill of Rights, proclaimed a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God."

Religious freedom in this country is under attack. So what are we going to do about it? What kind of nation are we going to leave for our children and grandchildren? A nation in moral and social decay or a nation built on the principles of a Godly heritage?

Prayer is the first and most important weapon we have in the battle to reclaim our nation for Christ. Pray for our president, members of congress, state and local officials, and the judges that preside over our courts. It is also important to make your voice heard. Remember to vote in local and national elections and write letters to your representatives and congressmen about issues that are important to you as a Christian.
 
atheists vs religion NOT state vs. religion
Atheists want to erase religios mentions and traces off the face of the earth and they use the *state separate from religion* clause to do their bidding.
Lets's start with the religious G. Washington on our 1 dollar bill
"erases the portrait*
Now, isn't that better?🙁:disgust::shocked::roll:
 
I don't see what the big deal is about displaying the ten commandments on government property. It isn't like Jerry Falwell is collecting tithes from it.

The intention of seperation of church and state was to keep religious institutions(like a church) off government property.
 
Originally posted by: rickn
I don't see what the big deal is about displaying the ten commandments on government property. It isn't like Jerry Falwell is collecting tithes from it.

The intention of seperation of church and state was to keep religious institutions(like a church) off government property.
Yes but now it's used to erase religion from everything like the pledge of allegiance

 
Some-one needs to understand what the meaning of seperation of Church and State mean.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

It states that the Congress (interpreted to mean government )shall not establish a religion.

The problem is what determines an establishment.

Is it recognition of a religion, favoring one over another. What determines a religion?

The founding fathers did not want a government controlled by a religion (ie. like the Church of England at that time). That is what caused the initial religious exodus from England, lack of freedom to practice.
 
Our society has taken separation of church and state to far.

In fact state is so involved with church that its oppressing people from free expression.

This time of year really brings it out.

When I was in school...we had Christmas Vacation...now its winter break which happens to revolve around Christmas.

Christmas Concert? Nope its holiday or winter concert now.

I could go on forever.

 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Our society has taken separation of church and state to far.

In fact state is so involved with church that its oppressing people from free expression.

This time of year really brings it out.

When I was in school...we had Christmas Vacation...now its winter break which happens to revolve around Christmas.

Christmas Concert? Nope its holiday or winter concert now.

I could go on forever.

It is those that want to impose their views on others.
What has changed over the last 40 years in society?
Media access and the ACLU courtesy of the civil rights act (movement) started by LBJ.

 
Originally posted by: russianpower
atheists vs religion NOT state vs. religion
Atheists want to erase religios mentions and traces off the face of the earth and they use the *state separate from religion* clause to do their bidding.
Lets's start with the religious G. Washington on our 1 dollar bill
"erases the portrait*
Now, isn't that better?🙁:disgust::shocked::roll:
Yes, it is atheists vs. religion instead of state vs. religion.

If you think athiests view George Washington as merely a religious figure and would like to remove his visage from society because of that...you're rather off target. Remembering Washington is more about history and his deeds than his spiritual beliefs. Athiests in general have nothing against history.

Now if Jesus Christ was on the dollar bill, yes, then we'd have an issue.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
the foundation laid by the founding fathers of this nation, a foundation built on the existence an almighty and loving Creator.

Religious freedom in this country is under attack. So what are we going to do about it? What kind of nation are we going to leave for our children and grandchildren? A nation in moral and social decay or a nation built on the principles of a Godly heritage?
I've said it before - the liberals and ACLU are destroying our nation. In the name of "diversity" and "multi-culturalism" they are stripping away the Christian foundation of America. No country, no nation, no civilization can last w/o a common bond that binds the people together.
 
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
the foundation laid by the founding fathers of this nation, a foundation built on the existence an almighty and loving Creator.

Religious freedom in this country is under attack. So what are we going to do about it? What kind of nation are we going to leave for our children and grandchildren? A nation in moral and social decay or a nation built on the principles of a Godly heritage?
I've said it before - the liberals and ACLU are destroying our nation. In the name of "diversity" and "multi-culturalism" they are stripping away the Christian foundation of America. No country, no nation, no civilization can last w/o a common bond that binds the people together.

Without Gays and any others the Christians feel are "undesireables" of course though.

 
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
the foundation laid by the founding fathers of this nation, a foundation built on the existence an almighty and loving Creator.

Religious freedom in this country is under attack. So what are we going to do about it? What kind of nation are we going to leave for our children and grandchildren? A nation in moral and social decay or a nation built on the principles of a Godly heritage?
I've said it before - the liberals and ACLU are destroying our nation. In the name of "diversity" and "multi-culturalism" they are stripping away the Christian foundation of America. No country, no nation, no civilization can last w/o a common bond that binds the people together.
So being an American isn't common enough of a bond? We started out as a Protestant English Country but over the last 2 centuries we have become a diversified nation made up of people from many different cultures and religions or beliefs. Should we force those who are not Christian or of English ancestry to adhere to the old ways to bond our country? Should we legislate it?
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
the foundation laid by the founding fathers of this nation, a foundation built on the existence an almighty and loving Creator.

Religious freedom in this country is under attack. So what are we going to do about it? What kind of nation are we going to leave for our children and grandchildren? A nation in moral and social decay or a nation built on the principles of a Godly heritage?
I've said it before - the liberals and ACLU are destroying our nation. In the name of "diversity" and "multi-culturalism" they are stripping away the Christian foundation of America. No country, no nation, no civilization can last w/o a common bond that binds the people together.
So being an American isn't common enough of a bond? We started out as a Protestant English Country but over the last 2 centuries we have become a diversified nation made up of people from many different cultures and religions or beliefs. Should we force those who are not Christian or of English ancestry to adhere to the old ways to bond our country? Should we legislate it?

I agree, we don't need a denomination to bond us together. In fact, we don't even need the fact that we are Americans to bind us together, it is "American" ideas and common beliefs that bind us together. No need to separate ourselves from peoples in other countries.
 
A good thread.

I too believe that liberals and immorals are tearing our freedoms from us. It is to the point where if I say "Merry Christmas" in a public school i'll be stoned! Indeed this is very disturbing, however I believe it is only the beginning. If we allow this to continue, this nation will be doomed.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
the foundation laid by the founding fathers of this nation, a foundation built on the existence an almighty and loving Creator.

Religious freedom in this country is under attack. So what are we going to do about it? What kind of nation are we going to leave for our children and grandchildren? A nation in moral and social decay or a nation built on the principles of a Godly heritage?
I've said it before - the liberals and ACLU are destroying our nation. In the name of "diversity" and "multi-culturalism" they are stripping away the Christian foundation of America. No country, no nation, no civilization can last w/o a common bond that binds the people together.

Without Gays and any others the Christians feel are "undesireables" of course though.


hmm my grandpa would tell you he remembers when the undesirables were jews... very dangerous ideals


on the quoted topic thought, it's the belief of freedom, justice and pursuit of happines that binds this country together. Not your god, bible or whatever you consider the basis for your morals. This country was designed so that the frameworks is universal to all - christian, hindu, muslim, atheist ... you name it. Christianity is not and has never been what defines this country. Keep that in mind.
 
Originally posted by: halik
on the quoted topic thought, it's the belief of freedom, justice and pursuit of happines that binds this country together. Not your god, bible or whatever you consider the basis for your morals. This country was designed so that the frameworks is universal to all - christian, hindu, muslim, atheist ... you name it. Christianity is not and has never been what defines this country. Keep that in mind.
I disagree with that. If you have ever visited Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, or other major metropolitan cities where "diversity" is, ahem "celebrated", you will see what a disaster it is. To simply say, "I'm an American that is all the bond I need" is hollow at best. I sure do not identify with a lot of poeple who just happen to also be American citizens.

What does it mean to be an American? Traditionally, and I mean since 1776 to the 1950's, being an American meant that you had some sort of Christian background or you at least respected the country that you emigrated to and did not try to change that country's culture and force you culture onto them. It meant that you assimilated into the American society, spoke English, favored a smaller government, minded your own damn business and embraced our wondeful capitalistic society.

Today that has all changed. People come to this country, both legally and illegally, and never learn English. They fly the flags of foreign nations on their houses and cars. They say they are "offended" by our Christian display of symbols and force their non-Christian views on us. They want socialist handouts to help all of their relatives. They want to suck the wealth from the US and transfer it back to their countries.

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
No country, no nation, no civilization can last.

Fixed that for you.
Wrong. You left out the most important part - the reason why countries, nations, and civilizations fail

 
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: halik
on the quoted topic thought, it's the belief of freedom, justice and pursuit of happines that binds this country together. Not your god, bible or whatever you consider the basis for your morals. This country was designed so that the frameworks is universal to all - christian, hindu, muslim, atheist ... you name it. Christianity is not and has never been what defines this country. Keep that in mind.
I disagree with that. If you have ever visited Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, or other major metropolitan cities where "diversity" is, ahem "celebrated", you will see what a disaster it is. To simply say, "I'm an American that is all the bond I need" is hollow at best. I sure do not identify with a lot of poeple who just happen to also be American citizens.

What does it mean to be an American? Traditionally, and I mean since 1776 to the 1950's, being an American meant that you had some sort of Christian background or you at least respected the country that you emigrated to and did not try to change that country's culture and force you culture onto them. It meant that you assimilated into the American society, spoke English, favored a smaller government, minded your own damn business and embraced our wondeful capitalistic society.

Today that has all changed. People come to this country, both legally and illegally, and never learn English. They fly the flags of foreign nations on their houses and cars. They say they are "offended" by our Christian display of symbols and force their non-Christian views on us. They want socialist handouts to help all of their relatives. They want to suck the wealth from the US and transfer it back to their countries.

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
No country, no nation, no civilization can last.

Fixed that for you.
Wrong. You left out the most important part - the reason why countries, nations, and civilizations fail


Just to set your number straight, the average immigrant family brings about 50k/year to the US budget (net).

I think what you're yearning for is to regress back to the cold war's war on godless communism, where any departure from the christian cookie-cutter family would result in your being a suspected communist. Fact of the matter is, US is NOT a christan nation. Unlike Vatican, the legal framework of the united states was designed to be secular.

And being an American in no way means you have to be Christan of any sort, nor was that case any point in the past. You could say that majority of americans are Christan, but applying that conversely is a fallacy.

I'll give you the point of speaking english though - as an immigrant myself i don't see how you can be a productive memeber of the society if you're not willing the speak the language of the country.

As far as forcing other people's views, untill there are people burning crosses on your lawn and making you convert to Hinduism, arguing that someone is forcing non-christian beliefs on you is idiotic at best. Theres a big difference between forcing non-christian beliefs and removing christianity from public property.
 
Originally posted by: halik
Theres a big difference between forcing non-christian beliefs and removing christianity from public property.
No there isn't. That's the main point. The Supreme Court building has multiple displays of the 10 Commandments. The Declaration of Independence stated our rights come from the Creator (God), etc. Like I said, from the founding of our nation in 1776 up to the 1950's, there wasn't ever any question of whether or not displays of Christian symbols was illegal or unconstitutional. Further, past presidents, supreme court rulings, congresses, etc. all acknowledged God. It is the liberal agenda, created in the 1950's after we won World War II, to destroy the United States. That is accomplished by destroying the Christian foundation that our nation was created upon. If you think I'm wrong, then take a look at this year's election results which was won by the Christian vote knocking down all of the gay "marriage" measures and knocking out the liberals from Washington.
 
Same sh1t, different day. I suppose if the US was founded in the 1950's all the "taking God out of the Pledge" whiners might have a point. If "Free excersize of Religion" involves Official Sanction from the Government, whiners might have a point. Unfortunetly(or fortunetly), all they have is their fantasy Historical Revisionism.
 
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: halik
Theres a big difference between forcing non-christian beliefs and removing christianity from public property.
No there isn't. That's the main point. The Supreme Court building has multiple displays of the 10 Commandments. The Declaration of Independence stated our rights come from the Creator (God), etc. Like I said, from the founding of our nation in 1776 up to the 1950's, there wasn't ever any question of whether or not displays of Christian symbols was illegal or unconstitutional. Further, past presidents, supreme court rulings, congresses, etc. all acknowledged God. It is the liberal agenda, created in the 1950's after we won World War II, to destroy the United States. That is accomplished by destroying the Christian foundation that our nation was created upon. If you think I'm wrong, then take a look at this year's election results which was won by the Christian vote knocking down all of the gay "marriage" measures and knocking out the liberals from Washington.

Ridiculous :roll:
 
Originally posted by: rickn
I don't see what the big deal is about displaying the ten commandments on government property. It isn't like Jerry Falwell is collecting tithes from it.

The intention of seperation of church and state was to keep religious institutions(like a church) off government property.

as well as religious doctrines
 
Originally posted by: russianpower
atheists vs religion NOT state vs. religion
Atheists want to erase religios mentions and traces off the face of the earth and they use the *state separate from religion* clause to do their bidding.
Lets's start with the religious G. Washington on our 1 dollar bill
"erases the portrait*
Now, isn't that better?🙁:disgust::shocked::roll:

he's on the $1 bill because he's our first president, not because he was a christian :roll:
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Our society has taken separation of church and state to far.

In fact state is so involved with church that its oppressing people from free expression.

This time of year really brings it out.

When I was in school...we had Christmas Vacation...now its winter break which happens to revolve around Christmas.

Christmas Concert? Nope its holiday or winter concert now.

I could go on forever.

is it any less of a concert now that it's not christmas concert? is it any less of a christmas since you're on winter break instead of christmas break? do you forget why YOU are on break??
 
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