The Secret Developers: Wii U - the inside story

[mazeroth]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-secret-developers-wii-u-the-inside-story

I don't have time right now to read it but thought you guys would appreciate the link.

 

[Tweak155]

Took a while to read but it was interesting. Pretty much talks about Nintendo neglecting 3rd party developers.

 

[tipoo]

This is insanity. I'm a programmer and if any dev tool took a few minutes to get variables every time I *CLICKED* on the code, I'd throw the thing out a window. How any third party got work done on that is miraculous.

And the GPU is 55nm? That's even older than the 40-45nm we thought, meaning our transistor count estimates were inflated by a lot, and those mystery fat shaders aren't so mysterious anymore.

 

[gorcorps]

That was a good read. I don't know anything about game development and such, but it sounds like a miserable system to work with.

 

[zerocool84]

That was a good read. I don't know anything about game development and such, but it sounds like a miserable system to work with.

It's a new system so I'm sure most developers have a hard time developing their first game, but with how close it is to the Wii, I would have figured it wouldn't be much different.

 

[Doppel]

I love articles like this.

Except in mobile space I have never, ever understood the desire to put power consumption as any kind of priority. Do 100W really mean a thing? That is a penny an hour in electricity, who really cares?

 

[smackababy]

I love articles like this.

Except in mobile space I have never, ever understood the desire to put power consumption as any kind of priority. Do 100W really mean a thing? That is a penny an hour in electricity, who really cares?

I think some countries have power requirements (as well as phantom power requirements) for the product to be legal to sell. So, it could be something system designers have to consider.

 

[SandEagle]

good article, thanks. i wasn't aware that game development was being done through Visual Studio. interesting.

 

[postmortemIA]

thanks a lot, it is ridiculous that devs waited whole week to get simple question answered.

 

[hans030390]

Nintendo is in even worse shape than I feared.

What's sad is how little they've learned in the past couple decades and how stubborn they can be about their problem areas. I hope Nintendo pulls themselves out of this, because I don't think they'll have too many chances in the future.

 

[Fox5]

Wow, they went with Renesas as their fab? I guess they wanted to keep things in Japan, but a semi cutting edge product really needs to be at one of the big fabs...
And AMD's low end APUs were basically made for Nintendo's situation.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6465/nintendo-wii-u-teardown
With a roughly 70W power budget, and a cpu slower than snapdragon, nintendo could have done much better. That's easily enough power budget to do a dual core Llano or Richland and a modest GPU.

Sounds like they had a bad case of NIH too. Could have leveraged PC dev tools better with an APU setup.
I find it funny that Nintendo devs apparently struggled with HD, but it is Nintendo's first system with shaders. Historically, Nintendo devs have strugged with every major switch, 2d to 3d, 3d to next gen with pseudo shaders, and now the switch to hd and real shaders.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I think some countries have power requirements (as well as phantom power requirements) for the product to be legal to sell. So, it could be something system designers have to consider.

That doesn't include a PC does it? That'd be some interesting info to find out.

I think a big part of the overall problem Nintendo is facing is the same one Sony just corrected. They can't be too secretive, they can't be too structured in Japanese business tradition which from what I understand makes doing anything on your own difficult because all decisions come from the top. I remember an interview with Yoshida Shuihei where he said that Sony really let them lose and gave them the power to create a product without being on a leash. They should branch out more to the west and this has helped Sony be successful in western markets. Nintendo was doing fine when there was only a couple major players and they were all out of Japan and the major game studios were also based in Japan. Today you have top tier developers in Canada, the US, UK, and other parts of Europe. Gaming is world wide now and the console manufacturers have to reach out to the world in order to be successful in today's industry.

 

[Imaginer]

Took a while to read but it was interesting. Pretty much talks about Nintendo neglecting 3rd party developers.

Not so much neglect as I got out of the article, but a delay in communication as well (possibly from translating basic communication, but also technical information as well) and the lack of catering to diagnostics and support. Even some people in Nintendo themselves are having a hard time working their side of the coin (re: Networking).

Still cannot argue the price points for a game system. At a quarter to 40% less than the Playstation 4 and Xbox One, the bottom line from a consumer point is that it is the cheapest of them all.

Things that Nintendo DOES need to work on, is leveling their technical design and collaboration to not be isolated in just Japan. If they were to dictate anything, it would be a arching "vision" (such as power and size). All other region divisions would be able to contribute alongside close developers. It seems that the hardware conception was made in a vacuum.

And the networking problems that are shown in the article, does not just apply with networking and collaborating with third party coders and developers, but (ALL PUNS INTENDED) to their actual network infrastructure it seems.

I still will await the next Nintendo title (that is actually good). Star Fox needs some updated love, Metroid (outside Other M's characterization), and Elite Beat Agents needs to dance again.

 

[Imaginer]

Also, if anything to blame, it would be Japanese pride. A commenter mentioned Sony going through that same issue, and I would agree with him/her that Nintendo has that isolationist Japanese pride and hierarchy that they want to maintain, but not be as flexible in a global business environment.

Hint, if I was a gaming developer/designer/architect I would learn Japanese and find business opportunities with Nintendo's studios in bridging communications. More than likely, translators can translate language but cannot convey the technical expression with it.

 

[Lil Frier]

A consumer sees that the Wii U is the cheapest system, but almost anyone with a brain would immediately ask "why?" when the price difference was presented. The Wii U is cheaper because it's less-powerful, and when you add in the lack of power with the lack of online gaming and third-party support, most folks will pay the premium to get a functionally-next-gen console. There legitimately isn't a price point Nintendo could hit with the Wii U where I'd say "OK, NOW I want it over the Xbox One," and that's from the standpoint that the Xbox One is too expensive and game-lacking for me to buy in the near-future. Having no real online gaming (can't play CoD or whatever with family/friends) and weak third-party support (meaning no Fallout or Skyrimfrom Bethesda and no sports games from 2K) makes the Wii U a pointless console for many. I think we can argue reasonably-well that the prevailing genre on consoles is the FPS, and Nintendo is sorely lacking there.

But the article even said that third-party developers are second-class citizens on a good day, to the point where their concerns are ignored (difficult coding, underpowered hardware, missing networking to test, week-long delays for responses). Nintendo doesn't give third-party developers any kind of warm welcome on the platform, and they make it difficult to work with them. They would benefit greatly from having REAL international arms, so you didn't have to wait forever for tech support to get questions translated to and from you. That they have no English-speaking people to answer developers' questions is probably the stupidest thing I read in all of that.

 

[mmntech]

I think a big part of the overall problem Nintendo is facing is the same one Sony just corrected. They can't be too secretive, they can't be too structured in Japanese business tradition which from what I understand makes doing anything on your own difficult because all decisions come from the top. I remember an interview with Yoshida Shuihei where he said that Sony really let them lose and gave them the power to create a product without being on a leash. They should branch out more to the west and this has helped Sony be successful in western markets. Nintendo was doing fine when there was only a couple major players and they were all out of Japan and the major game studios were also based in Japan. Today you have top tier developers in Canada, the US, UK, and other parts of Europe. Gaming is world wide now and the console manufacturers have to reach out to the world in order to be successful in today's industry.

That's the problem in a nutshell. They're trying to run the company the same way they did 25 years ago. Nintendo is becoming a bit of a dinosaur. The gaming industry has changed a lot over the last decade but they really haven't kept up.

A good example of that is just how clunky their online features still are. They're hard to navigate (3DS eShop I'm looking at you), and generally not as intuitive as what Sony has. It's only recently that they finally created a proper and unified online account for both systems. Not to mention still holding on to old practises like strict DRM for online purchases, and region locking. Remember when they used to tie your games to the hardware. Because as everyone knows, hardware never breaks.

They're also still treating third parties like rubbish. The problem is, they don't have the first party IP to really replace it. Shigeru Miyamoto is a genius but he hasn't come up with an entirely new and original franchise in 7 years.

Given the headaches that third parties have gotten, it's just more attractive to create games for the PS4 and Xbone. There's more of them in the wild and they don't have the same hardware constraints. According to Wikipedia, the Wii U has sold 4.3 million units over the last two years. The PS4 has sold 4.2 million units over the last two months. It's a more stable platform to work on, and easier to develop for. I don't think the $100 price premium for the PS4 really matters all that much. Especially with the Wii U's performance so closely matched to the 360 and PS3. Both of which can be bought brand new at retail for less, and come with a robust library of games.

 

[Doppel]

Still cannot argue the price points for a game system. At a quarter to 40% less than the Playstation 4 and Xbox One, the bottom line from a consumer point is that it is the cheapest of them all.

The Wii U is truly better compared with last gen; 360 and PS3. Of those it is not only more expensive but also has less games. And even as those systems die off, and cross-gen games stop being a thing, those cross-gen won't be on the Wii U, either, for the same reason they won't be on 360/PS3.

The Wii U is going to struggle for its entire lifespan. It may end up being a "successful project"; a net money maker, but it will never be a big success. Its performance is too inferior and always will be to PS4/XB1 to ever compete properly with them.

The same of course was with the Wii. It had its own sub-market (which turned out to be huge). There's no indication at all the Wii U can carve out a similar slice.

 

[mizzou]

I'll never figure out why they flat out refuse to at least meet the same bar as xbox and ps

I mean...we are probably talking about pennies on the dollar when it comes to the difference between a WiiU (As it is now) and a WiiU with decent capabilities.

 

[TheAdvocate]

They arent aiming at the fps on bleeding edge hardware audience. That is the mistake all of you are making. All it takes is 5 minutes watching kids squeal in joy while they play it (maybe with mom & dad joining in) to see who they were aiming for.

The system is now 2 years old from a design standpoint, and it was not going to be bleeding edge to start with, so yes it is far behind the new consoles hardware. But I for one am glad it has such a small power draw, & runs silently. My kids dont give a rats ass about the graphics. HD alone is enough. And how awesome was it today when I flipped my plasma to the NFL playoffs and my son just switched his super mario 3D game to the gamepad. No fights. That was nice.

I do agree that they need to beef up their online experience and they need to make things as easy as possible on 3P developers. They have definitely made some mistakes, but I think this forum, generally, is the wrong audience to critique them. Their only angle on us is quality gameplay and nostalgia.

 

[cmdrdredd]

They arent aiming at the fps on bleeding edge hardware audience. That is the mistake all of you are making. All it takes is 5 minutes watching kids squeal in joy while they play it (maybe with mom & dad joining in) to see who they were aiming for.

The system is now 2 years old from a design standpoint, and it was not going to be bleeding edge to start with, so yes it is far behind the new consoles hardware. But I for one am glad it has such a small power draw, & runs silently. My kids dont give a rats ass about the graphics. HD alone is enough. And how awesome was it today when I flipped my plasma to the NFL playoffs and my son just switched his super mario 3D game to the gamepad. No fights. That was nice.

I do agree that they need to beef up their online experience and they need to make things as easy as possible on 3P developers. They have definitely made some mistakes, but I think this forum, generally, is the wrong audience to critique them. Their only angle on us is quality gameplay and nostalgia.

Not every game works with second screen. That's problem number one right there for the scenario you described. How is anyone on here the "wrong" audience? We are all gamers here and as gamers we are the audience. If we are the wrong audience than Nintendo has failed as a game company. It's that simple. I always find this argument absolutely hilarious. If a game company can't sell their games to gamers then why are they making games? No it has nothing to do with the games being for kids either. There's a number of people on here who play games like Rayman, Mario etc. The question is, are there enough people who still like Nintendo's core games (mario, mario kart, smash bros etc) to buy into the console. Sales say there really isn't. The waggle gimmick is dead, the tablet gimmick doesn't work as a sales pitch when almost everyone owns a smart phone or tablet these days. So they need other games, 3rd party exclusive games, to sell the console off of. They simply haven't come. The core audience who arguably has the most money to spend on gaming simply isn't buying into it in large numbers.

We are talking about the reasons the WiiU is failing and why it will continue to struggle. One of those reasons is because it's too weak to compete in the market and both developers and gamers have spoken on this. There's almost going to be more PS4 games released in it's first year than the WiiU got in two. The Xbox One will have a lot of games this year as well. The PS4 sold nearly twice as many units as the WiiU did and it only took about two months. That's pretty bad. The developer relations that Nintendo still after all these years doesn't think is a priority or at least doesn't act like it, is another issue.

 

[Lil Frier]

They arent aiming at the fps on bleeding edge hardware audience. That is the mistake all of you are making. All it takes is 5 minutes watching kids squeal in joy while they play it (maybe with mom & dad joining in) to see who they were aiming for.

The system is now 2 years old from a design standpoint, and it was not going to be bleeding edge to start with, so yes it is far behind the new consoles hardware. But I for one am glad it has such a small power draw, & runs silently. My kids dont give a rats ass about the graphics. HD alone is enough. And how awesome was it today when I flipped my plasma to the NFL playoffs and my son just switched his super mario 3D game to the gamepad. No fights. That was nice.

I do agree that they need to beef up their online experience and they need to make things as easy as possible on 3P developers. They have definitely made some mistakes, but I think this forum, generally, is the wrong audience to critique them. Their only angle on us is quality gameplay and nostalgia.

Here's my issue with your point: Kids squeal at ANYTHING new. Kids are also not the only fans of Nintendo games. Heck, most of what you call those "squealing-kid" games comes as another version of a game that people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s loved growing up.

I'd love to play games like the new Donkey Kong, Pokemon, and Mario games. However, I'm not going to go put $200 into a DS for 2-3 games. I'm not going to go put $300+ into a Wii U for the same number of games.

It's not even something where Nintendo has to cater to the FPS crowd. They just need to have semi-powerful parts and SDKs, along with a working online experience. If they'd get a respectable machine with online gaming out there, the third-party developers would show up, and THEY'D deal with drawing the FPS crowd. I'm not going to buy a Wii U for Donkey Kong alone. However, if I can get the same experience on the Wii U as I can on the Xbox One, for the most part, I would maybe pick a Wii U and an Xbox 360 over just an Xbox One.

People aren't clamoring for Nintendo to make a good FPS or Arcade racer or sim racer. We're saying that we want to be able to play Skyrim and Need for Speed: Rivals and the like on the Wii U. All Nintendo needs to do is get a better CPU and some workable online play. They don't have to make the games.

Of course, if they want to give us that MASSIVE Pokemon game, where we can go through all of the regions in the franchise and earn 40 badges, I'm totally cool with that. I also wouldn't mind Snowboard Kids in HD.

 

[Fox5]

Here's an idea:

If Nintendo fails, maybe they could partner with Steam for Steam machines. It'd be a much needed boost, and Valve is a small enough player that they could be open to it. In exchange, Nintendo could get royalty free usage of Steam and produce their own Steam machine hardware variant with their own exclusive add on widgets.

 

[Lil Frier]

Nintendo is too proud, I imagine. If they can't see the BAJILLIONS of dollars going third-party would bring now, I don't think anything will get it to happen. The lines to get Mario games at GameStop for the Sony and Microsoft consoles...they'd stretch for miles. Online Pokemon through PSN or XBL?

 

[hans030390]

I think it would be particularly interesting if Nintendo became an exclusive third-party developer for Sony, especially considering the two companies' history in the 90s.

I think Nintendo will have at least one more shot at a console before they really have to consider that, though.

 

[Imaginer]

I think it would be particularly interesting if Nintendo became an exclusive third-party developer for Sony, especially considering the two companies' history in the 90s.

If it means Nintendo getting Sony to reverse their (sound in language universal representation) shape button notations in favor of one-syllable alphabet notations alongside Nintendo dictating in equal say in periphery, then maybe?

(Reason for my point above, ever describe or wanting to type online something to do for a move, action, etc? It is cumbersome and time consuming to say REC-TANG-LE, and TRI-AN-GLE versus eX and whY.)

But a three contender system keeps things in check more than two. I rather not see Nintendo bow out of the race. (Steam Machines is on the levels of Ouya and 3DO at the moment)