The screwed up way that society works

Alphathree33

Platinum Member
Dec 1, 2000
2,419
0
0
Since most of the people on this forum are computer literate, and generally intelligent folks, I'm sure some you can indentify with these feelings. I apologize for its length, but without SharkyForums, I've felt a real need to write, and this is my next favorite forum! :)

During the past century, we've made huge leaps and bounds in technology. Just over one hundred years ago, the idea of a flight across the Atlantic Ocean would have been considered nonesense; a dream never to be accomplished. Yet here we are today with thousands of planes in the sky flying to destinations virtually anywhere. As much as I'd like to not associate this post in with September 11th, two B-2 bombers made their way all the way from the continental United States to Afghanistan, hit their targets, then flew even farther to the indian ocean where they landed at a UK base, undamaged and undetected.

We have computers that can perform billions of operations per second, display graphical information and enable communication between anyone, virtually any where. These forums are living proof.

But society has become so jaded with the now commonplace technologies that the widely believed but never spoken idea floating about the general population is that new technology must simply grow on trees. As though there was a secret fountain somewhere in the Sahara Desert that spewed televisions and radios and microcircuitry as gifts from the Gods at the appropriate times in our civilization's history.

If only it were that easy.

One of my not-so-computer-literate social science teachers commented the other day that he had no idea it was possible to send voice communications over the Internet. Now, I don't expect social science teachers to know much about anything, but, had he put a bit of thought into the issue, perhaps he would've realized that any kind of data can be transmitted along any medium which can transmit text. Sadly, I'm sure he figures that electrons must have to assemble into patterns that resemble musical notes in order for the computer to understand the data contained in an MP3 file.

A colleague at work found a bug in a script I'd written and commented, "now why would it do that?" As though the computer was purposefully trying to annoy her. With the addition of a few statements, the bug is fixed. I came back to report, and was labelled a genius - wow, you made the computer like me. Which command on the start menu does that, again?

This lack of understanding leads to a lack of respect for the real people that spend their days pushing the world's technology forward. Not the CEOs, politicians and investment bankers but the engineerings, scientists and mathematicians of our time and those that have come before us.

We try to educate our youth about science and mathematics, yet, it is taught in such a dry and repulsive manner that most begin to question its importance because they do not understand and do not appreciate what they are learning. One of my friends asked me this, as I pondered over a problem: "What if the ban math, what would you do?"

If it were anyone else, based on the pure stupidty and broad reaching generality of the question, I would have been fuming. But I took a minute to structure my response and fully considered what he was asking. My response was, "I wouldn't be able to do anything" since the laws of physics break down down and I would most likely cease to exist.

But that's not what he was really asking me. He was questioning the importance of the abstract problem that I was working on. After all, what effect could it ever have on reality? The answer is probably none. Aside from the fact that I was particularly enjoying the challenge, it is imporant to remember that it is abstract thought which leads to applied thought. And that applied thought paves the way for the innovative technology that we have today.

The irony is that many ignorant people will get on computers, go to forums just like this one, and question the importance of science and mathematics. Why should anyone study these topics, what has it ever brought us, they will ask.

Our very economy demands advance after advance, yet our values dictate tolerance without understanding. My own mother purchased a $37,000 car: a piece of machinery and electronics that is so complex that it's taken millions of years of evolution to gain the knowledge it takes to build one. This, of course, isn't the least bit fascinating to my mother who has absolutely no interest. It gets her to work, she says.

Things are improving, though. I'm sure I won't be hung if I suggest that the Earth is not the center of the universe. But I might be looked at rather strangely if I said mathematics was an enjoyable pass time.

I'm not sure about everyone else, but the new world state of mind has left me feeling used. Quite honestly, I have no aspirations to study engineering if society turns its back on any attempt at understanding. We've all been forced to understand: understand women's rights, understand political issues, understand cultural differences.

Why is it such an unreasonably daunting task to ask that society make an effort to understand the very world around them?
 

Wedesdo

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2000
2,108
1
0
that's a long, nice, and very well though out post.

I mostly agree with it, and I commend you for being so enlightened. This has been an interesting read. :)
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Well I don't personally care about math as an enjoyable pass time but I'd never call it useless.

Your observations are something we've all seen. Those who haven't seen it are either very young or too stupid to realize it :(

I constantly revise my numbers but I'm currently of the opinion that a good 2/3 of people are dumb as sh*t. I'm not talking about IQ or raw intelligence. Most of us are in the same sort of area for that with a skewing above and below...but most of us are at least somewhat similar in the area. What I'm talking about is people who go about their lives content in their own idiocy. I've seen many times on these forums and from other people I've spoken to in real life extreme examples of stupidity. In answer to the question "What should we do about Milosevic commiting all these atrocities?" such people say "Why the hell should I care?". I have a friend who has a degree (apparently it didn't mean much with him) and after further prodding he eventually confided that ultimately he doesn't give a damn about anything outside of his immediate geographical area. He has "bigger" things to worry about like bills, his job, and beer. We all have these things to worry about (especially beer), but setting aside the rest of the world is unecessary and should be unfulfilling.

Have you ever noticed how annoying it is to discuss anything with an adult who doesn't regularly follow the news; all they do is watch sitcoms and go to work? There is an alarming number of adults in our society who have never even heard the name Milosevic - I'm going back to him as an example of something outside of our borders that everybody should have been aware of.

People like this - and the sad majority is this ignorant I believe - have no control over anything beyond their own tiny lives. They don't shape the future or contribute to humankind beyond their tax input and whether they have a couple of children or not. And, "like father like son", their kids will likely be just as clueless about life such as world events, the worth of math and history, and complex understanding of anything beyond the football season.

I don't want to seem too arrogant with this post. I am quite intelligent, and I think for my age well-informed, but I also realize that in many areas I lack understanding. Plenty of people are smarter than me and I don't believe I'll ever lead a country. I try to be self-critical and appreciate my short-comings. Everyone has their place in society. Distilled in its most basic form my complaint of the 2/3 of people I mentioned is: They don't try to better themselves or their lives. Why are so many people unable or unwilling to step back and look at themselves and the world and try and figure out a fitting place for themselves? I'm far from perfect, but the second I just give up and fall into the useless sheep mentality will be the second I suck! I like TV and video games and theme parks too, but why do so many people feel content in being stupid as hell?!

A prime example of uninformed ignorance in light of recent events are such statements as: "Lets nuke everybody in Afghanistan. One American life is worth more than their entire country." In fact that is a near-verbatim quote of something I saw posted here. It reeks of stupidity and a lack of understanding of anything about the issue.
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
38,241
4
0
If everyone understood it, you'd be making minimum wage instead of $90,000/year :)

I know how you feel. I want the people around me to be interested in the same sorts of things. But the sad fact is that msot people don't give a flying fvck how or why things work, they're satisfied knowing that they work. Personally, I share your curiosity for science, however you can't expect everyone to care about the same things you are.

Are you interested in the amount of sunlight/water it takes to raise a tomato plant to maturity? how about the correct tequnique for making rounded corners on concrete? you ever wanted to make jewelry?

You probably said no to those, and you have to realize other people have other interests besides math and science. It would be great if everyone cared about everything, but there's simply not enough time for everyone to foster an interest in every field of study, so they pick the ones they like most.
 

khtm

Platinum Member
Mar 5, 2001
2,089
0
0


<< I'm not sure about everyone else, but the new world state of mind has left me feeling used. Quite honestly, I have no aspirations to study engineering if society turns its back on any attempt at understanding. We've all been forced to understand: understand women's rights, understand political issues, understand cultural differences.

Why is it such an unreasonably daunting task to ask that society make an effort to understand the very world around them?
>>



Very well written, Alphathree! I've never really looked at this topic in the same light that you just did, but I agree 100% with your observations. I find it very frustrating that the 'brains' of society are not well respected, while the 'brawns' of society are worshiped (athletes, actors, etc.).
 

Haircut

Platinum Member
Apr 23, 2000
2,248
0
0
Skoorb, I agree with pretty much everything you have said there. It seems that most people are happy to go about life being ignorant of most things around them.
It is actually quite scary to think that in an election there is probably a sizable proportion of people that will vote for a candidate just because 'he seems like a nice guy' or something equally as daft.

Luckily it seems most people at Anandtech are in the minority that are intelligent and can form valid opinions on important issues.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Personally, I share your curiosity for science, however you can't expect everyone to care about the same things you are.

Are you interested in the amount of sunlight/water it takes to raise a tomato plant to maturity? how about the correct tequnique for making rounded corners on concrete? you ever wanted to make jewelry?

You probably said no to those, and you have to realize other people have other interests besides math and science. It would be great if everyone cared about everything, but there's simply not enough time for everyone to foster an interest in every field of study, so they pick the ones they like most


Not wishing to put words in Alpha's mouth I believe he used science and math as an example as much as anything else. Just like he loves math and I don't particularly care for it (grr, i hated calculus!), I appreciate it has its place. Alpha may not personally give a damn about botany but he probably knows it ultimately serves a purpose.

What I take issue to, and I think others here do as well, is not that people may or may not care about my interest or somebody else's interest, but they should be interested in something. Something semi-cognitive at the least. They should try to understand the world around them and take a critical approach to at least something.

It is actually quite scary to think that in an election there is probably a sizable proportion of people that will vote for a candidate just because 'he seems like a nice guy' or something equally as daft.

Bloody right! I remember last Federal elections I was of the impression that many people who were "excercising their right to vote" had not even covered the basics of what each party stood for. In Canada Liberals got the most votes. Was it because they were truly better or thats what everyone commonly voted? In some cases people believed they were better. In others its because they heard that "Stockwell day [head of another party] was a crazy zealot". How can a person vote on their country's leadership if they can't clearly state the first damn thing about the competition?
 

khtm

Platinum Member
Mar 5, 2001
2,089
0
0


<< A prime example of uninformed ignorance in light of recent events are such statements as: "Lets nuke everybody in Afghanistan. One American life is worth more than their entire country."
In fact that is a near-verbatim quote of something I saw posted here. It wreaks of stupidity and a lack of understanding of anything about the issue.
>>



Damn! You guys continue to impress me with your insight and coherence :)
I myself am not always up-to-date with world events (like US politics, sports, etc), but this is simply because I am too DAMN busy. But when something like the current Afghanistan situation happens, I become very interested. This is not a situation that we will watch on the 6 o'clock news every night and in a week it will be over. No, it affects each and every one of us. We are not only citizens of our own country, we are also citizens of Earth, and as such, we should take responsiblity to know what is happening outside of our immediate vicinity. I absolutely HATE when people make the ignorant statement which you so well quoted. "Let's bomb Afghanistan!" and "We should Nuke 'em!". This is pure idiocy.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Damn! You guys continue to impress me with your insight and coherence


Sadly spelling isn't my strong point "It wreaks of stupidity " :) Edited now. I was hoping nobody would catch that in time!
 

Windogg

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,241
0
0
I work for one of the world's largest semiconductor manufacturers uet you ask a random person and chances are he/she will not have a clue how to define what is semiconductor. I am also amazed at how people who manufacture, sell, and support these products refuse to learn anything beyond what they are forced to know to get by and get a paycheck. I love comments like, "Technology is too complicated. We shouldn't have to know how to use a computer." HELLO??? Without computers you'd be flipping burgers right now.

Windogg
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
so computers are flipping burgers for them? where do i get one of these new-fangled "computers"?
 

khtm

Platinum Member
Mar 5, 2001
2,089
0
0


<< Sadly spelling isn't my strong point "It wreaks of stupidity " Edited now. I was hoping nobody would catch that in time! >>



Haha :) I don't think anybody did catch that mistake! I was simply quoting you because I particularly agreed with that paragraph you wrote.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
2
0
i think that your being a little pessimistic about this. most people i know have a great enthusiasm for life and for their individual interests as it suits them. granted, we don't all have the available time to get involved in everything we'd like but for the most part, i think most people do pretty well. you comment that not enough people know enough about what's around them but honestly, does the average person need to know so many things in detail? they need to know the things to survive and make themselves successful in life; beyond that it's pretty much follow your own interests.

one person may know lots about what makes a car work and another may know lots about making flowers bloom. both are needed in this world.

now i do agree that there are a lot of people floating around that don't even notice the sky is blue and have all the mental processes of a tubeworm.
 

Alphathree33

Platinum Member
Dec 1, 2000
2,419
0
0
I wasn't suggesting that if I walk up to the average person on the street and ask him to solve a 10x10 fourth degree equation system that he should be able to do so. I was more referring to awareness not specific knowledge. I don't want everyone to be a C++ programmer, simply acknowledge what a C++ programmer does. After all, I know what a politician does, I know what a plumber does.

You're right, I have a difficult time accepting that some people don't care about the world around them. I take interest in nearly everything, though. I like writing and reading, mathematics, science. And engineering applies to a lot of things. Carpenters, plumbers, electricians - these people are "hands on" kinds of engineers. They don't have PhDs, they aren't mathematical experts, but they take an interest in how things work. What bothers me the most is the people who make no connection between mathematics and the real world. So many students struggle with it because they see it as a bunch of funny written symbols. Teachers don't understand that applying mathematics to reality is the key to understanding it. They try with quite pathetic examples, but students can't be forced into thinking a certain way. It's largely society's problem: men are labelled as "gifted" if we actually get it and women are discouraged from mathematics entirely.

Getting back to the point, I've worked under people in Marketing for some time, and I'm tired of the marketing philsophy which is this: take all of the great ideas that someone else has and sell them for your own profit or career moves. These people have no respect for making a GOOD product or a USEFUL product, and, as we're all becoming more and more aware, no respect for our environment.



<< i think that your being a little pessimistic about this. most people i know have a great enthusiasm for life and for their individual interests as it suits them. granted, we don't all have the available time to get involved in everything we'd like but for the most part, i think most people do pretty well. you comment that not enough people know enough about what's around them but honestly, does the average person need to know so many things in detail? they need to know the things to survive and make themselves successful in life; beyond that it's pretty much follow your own interests.

one person may know lots about what makes a car work and another may know lots about making flowers bloom. both are needed in this world.

now i do agree that there are a lot of people floating around that don't even notice the sky is blue and have all the mental processes of a tubeworm.
>>

 

Alphathree33

Platinum Member
Dec 1, 2000
2,419
0
0


<< It's because the blue from the sea reflects from the sky ;) >>



No it has to do with the wavelength of blue light and oxygen molecules...
 

Haircut

Platinum Member
Apr 23, 2000
2,248
0
0
I did know that, the previous post was not supposed to be taken seriously - hence the smiley on the end.
 

khtm

Platinum Member
Mar 5, 2001
2,089
0
0


<< men are labelled as "gifted" if we actually get it and women are discouraged from mathematics entirely. >>


I have to take exception to this comment. Perhaps in the 1950s this would be true, but not now. I'm a 3rd year university student, and in my generation and those after mine, woman are NOT discouraged from mathematics. In high school my Math12 Honours/Calculus AP class was approximately half girls. Mind you, in most of my math classes at university (filled with engineering students), this number has decreased enourmously, but that has nothing to do with woman being discouraged from mathematics. It is simply because it takes time for society to change, but it is changing. 50 years ago there would be no women taking engineering degrees in university - now about 10-20% of my classmates are female.

I'm happy to see that this gap is narrowing, but I somehow doubt that it will ever disappear. I may be wrong about this, but I think that females are generally less interested in engineering-type positions than males. It may have something to do with boys playing with Lego and girls playing with Barbie dolls (no flames, I realize this is a vast generalization), or perhaps that the part of the brain used for mathematic calculations is bigger in males (again, no flames - this is a fact). Whatever the reason may be, that's the way I look at it.
 

novon

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,711
0
0
If you guys really thought about the way the world is contstructed, you would have seen that life is a constant balance and equilibrium. There are those who are smart, and those who are not, those who are smart have their set of advantages, but also their set of disadvantages (those who are smart know what I'm talking about here). Just as the different animal, the less intellectual human being too has its advantages, they may for all I know be experiencing a constant clear mind that may be bliss, they may actually be more emotional and those experiences of emotion have their advantages and their disadvantages. There are all types of people, and every type of person is a equilibrioum of advantages and disadvantage and each adds a needed value to the global whole which is humanity.
 

Alphathree33

Platinum Member
Dec 1, 2000
2,419
0
0
I'm touched, but the point of the post was not to call people stupid. Now if only YOU had really thought about what I was saying...



<< If you guys really thought about the way the world is contstructed, you would have seen that life is a constant balance and equilibrium. There are those who are smart, and those who are not, those who are smart have their set of advantages, but also their set of disadvantages (those who are smart know what I'm talking about here). Just as the different animal, the less intellectual human being too has its advantages, they may for all I know be experiencing a constant clear mind that may be bliss, they may actually be more emotional and those experiences of emotion have their advantages and their disadvantages. There are all types of people, and every type of person is a equilibrioum of advantages and disadvantage and each adds a needed value to the global whole which is humanity. >>

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,806
6,362
126
Ok brainiacs, grab a shovel and pail and go build yourself a complete computer system that'll(I'll make it easy for you) beat a Cyrix 120+, TNT in Q3. :)

Truth is, no one can possibly know even the existance of, nevermind the general understanding of, every job in an industrial economy. Our technologically advanced society is dependent on a highly specialized workforce. Without that specialization we'd all be bringing in our crops right now by strapping stukes of grain to our horses or donkeys. :)

When I took a Technical Writing(basically a course in writing technical manuals for the masses) course back in '85, it was impressed upon us how those with knowledge often forget from whence they came.