The salaries they offer for the IT positions on craislist are laughable

[BreastInspector]

Nothing could be further from the truth. Only somebody that doesn't understand the industry would say something like that. IT is only getting increasingly more complex. The virtualization push and the transformation of how data centers and applications, our very means of conducting business and communication, work is under radical change and the people that know how to do it properly are few and far between. And they're going to make out like bandits.

I'm trying to help you guys here.

Saying that IT is getting increasingly more complex plays right into my analogy with an auto worker. 30 years ago, it was engine, windhsield, seats, etc. Now, its onboard diagnostics, black box, catalytic converters, sat-nav, moonroof, AIRBAGS, etc. Its not far from the truth, its the natural evolution of the industry. Said evolution, re virtualization and more complexity feeds upon itself in that people who can VPN and virtualize and work from home require less support at the office, allowing fewer IT staff to maintain the same number of machines. The auto analogy to this is robots welding instead of people. More work, less money.

If you don't agree with me in that I say the IT professionals are commodities, put up a for wanted ad on craigslist for a postition matching the skillsets you've described. I say you get 150 responses, of which 15 people actually meet/exceed your employment criteria.

Anyone want to take the over on that?

 

[spidey07]

I disagree.Most of IT are skilled labor - you use/configure/implement somebody else's products and technology.

Areas where you design and make the technology always has openings.

That's why real engineers and code developers aren't that hit with this. And most companies aren't trying to lowball them.

As always, there are exceptions. Some are terrific in what they do and they'll never be without work.

Top talent will always rise to the top and command their price no matter where they are at in the food chain. But the people that build it are always at the lower end of the totem pole. Engineers are at the bottom of the totem pole, they don't directly generate revenue. They are and always will be a fixed cost.

They don't make the company money. Fixed cost, that's why engineer's salaries are capped at a ceiling - you're a fixed expense, a resource.

It's a sad and true conclusion that an engineer has to realize. An engineer is a grunt and other people tell him what to do, what to design, etc.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Real engineering > IT.

Sorry, IT doesn't belong in R&D. When you're not in R&D or engineering you get shafted.

And seriously it doesn't take a college degree to do IT. It does take a college degree to get an EE job, and even BS degrees are just meh. It's all about MS and PhDs today.

 

[Pantlegz]

Top talent will always rise to the top and command their price no matter where they are at in the food chain. But the people that build it are always at the lower end of the totem pole. Engineers are at the bottom of the totem pole, they don't directly generate revenue. They are and always will be a fixed cost.

They don't make the company money. Fixed cost, that's why engineer's salaries are capped at a ceiling - you're a fixed expense, a resource.

It's a sad and true conclusion that an engineer has to realize. An engineer is a grunt and other people tell him what to do, what to design, etc.

this is why I hope I'm only a network admin/engineer for a short period of time while I prove myself and get additional certs and finish my bachelors.... and AAS and entry level certs along are worth well over 10/hr even in a shit hole desk job in ks.

 

[alkemyst]

Top talent will always rise to the top and command their price no matter where they are at in the food chain. But the people that build it are always at the lower end of the totem pole. Engineers are at the bottom of the totem pole, they don't directly generate revenue. They are and always will be a fixed cost.

They don't make the company money. Fixed cost, that's why engineer's salaries are capped at a ceiling - you're a fixed expense, a resource.

It's a sad and true conclusion that an engineer has to realize. An engineer is a grunt and other people tell him what to do, what to design, etc.

Almost anything in IT/IS is a cost. The 'savings' is not really a revenue source to many managers and they in fact see that savings as something they initiated.

The biggest problem in the IT/IS world right now is in many markets there is a lot of saturation and not enough hiring managers that can really interview good talent. They end up solely shopping price (wages/salary).

When some pimpleface comes to the other side of the desk with a BA / MA and a MCSE/CCNP/Juniper/A+ etc cert list and only wants $40-50k a year it's hard for them to justify a more seasoned pro that is asking $65-85k and wanting a better benefit/exit package.

There is a big disjunct between those hiring and what those looking to be hired want to make.

At the same time there are relative idiots basking in a $200k/yr position with a guaranteed 1 year pay out if they get laid off/terminated.

It's a lot of luck in this economy or having major networking. I know quite a few CCIE's and those in high end sales. Making $150k with bonus is doing pretty good right now. Some that were hitting $400-500k yearly have been laid off as their gravy trains dried up.

It's sad.

 

[Descartes]

Only one person, from what I can tell, has the slightest clue what they're talking about in this thread. spidey, I'm not sure why you bother.

 

[spidey07]

alkemyst,

It's ready to blow up regarding sales. There's been a lull for about 18 months but business needs are fueling the investment.

Business can only sit on it's hands for so long regarding informationtechnology. We're on the biggest boom not seen since 1999.

Get ready.

 

[spidey07]

Only one person, from what I can tell, has the slightest clue what they're talking about in this thread. spidey, I'm not sure why you bother.

I'm trying to help them. It's called opportunity and she's banging on the door.

 

[Modelworks]

It's a sad and true conclusion that an engineer has to realize. An engineer is a grunt and other people tell him what to do, what to design, etc.

I hate to admit it, but Spidey is mostly right here. I quit engineering work because of the way engineers are treated in the industry. Going in you think you are going to be faced with problems, come up with unique solutions and really get to make decisions that bring a product to life. The reality is that you get shown what is needed, you work out the solution, and then are told by marketing or someone in a suit who is totally clueless why your design cannot be done. You are then sent back to come up with a way to do it that goes against every reason you became an engineer. I often felt like a doctor who is being told don't cure the patient, just give him some pills to cover up the symptoms.


If you are in IT I can tell you one area where you can rake in the cash, but it isn't easy to break into. Visual effects. People that run the networks at places like renderfarms and studios are very sought after. It requires knowledge of things like hardware and networking along with the software programs that run on them like Renderman or Backburner.

 

[gophins72]

so my first post in this thread was sort of in jest, but on a more serious note:

spidey what is your advice on someone who has been in the industry for a while, go into sales, move out of the high supply field?

thanks

 

[gophins72]

*duplicate post*

 

[Descartes]

I hate to admit it, but Spidey is mostly right here. I quit engineering work because of the way engineers are treated in the industry. Going in you think you are going to be faced with problems, come up with unique solutions and really get to make decisions that bring a product to life. The reality is that you get shown what is needed, you work out the solution, and then are told by marketing or someone in a suit who is totally clueless why your design cannot be done. You are then sent back to come up with a way to do it that goes against every reason you became an engineer. I often felt like a doctor who is being told don't cure the patient, just give him some pills to cover up the symptoms.


If you are in IT I can tell you one area where you can rake in the cash, but it isn't easy to break into. Visual effects. People that run the networks at places like renderfarms and studios are very sought after. It requires knowledge of things like hardware and networking along with the software programs that run on them like Renderman or Backburner.

IMO, the lack of respect, if you want to call it that, goes both ways. The best engineering can't place a product in the market. It takes collaboration from both sides, and that requires give/take from both sides as well.

Engineers have this "we're smarter" mentality that's always in opposition. The reality is, they're not clueless and it takes everyone to really make the machine work to create something viable. I'll even go on a limb and say marketing is MORE important to the business than engineering. It's maybe sad to think about it like that, but true.

There are a lot of opportunities in IT and there will continue to be. If people keep relegating themselves to subordinate positions and fail to collaborate with the business, it's at your own peril.

 

[MotF Bane]

Real engineering > IT.

Sorry, IT doesn't belong in R&D. When you're not in R&D or engineering you get shafted.

And seriously it doesn't take a college degree to do IT. It does take a college degree to get an EE job, and even BS degrees are just meh. It's all about MS and PhDs today.

Yay, a few more years of school.

 

[alkemyst]

alkemyst,

It's ready to blow up regarding sales. There's been a lull for about 18 months but business needs are fueling the investment.

Business can only sit on it's hands for so long regarding informationtechnology. We're on the biggest boom not seen since 1999.

Get ready.

I'd really love to believe this, but I think we are no where near a boom yet and definitely not going to do another 'dot com' deal for a while.

What sector is this boom going to hit, where has it only been a lull of 18 months? Definitely not the auto market nor financial esp banking right now...many are trying to liquidate their IS assets as they are collecting dust.

I do know smaller countries (central america, islands, etc) are now buying as the prices have come down esp with staff under-utilized. However, these are not big jobs like there was in the late 90's and mid 00's.

I come across a lot of younger people dreaming of quarter million dollar paychecks with a few years of work/certs. It happens, but it's much like watching the lineup at the high school sports level dreaming of NFL/NBA/ETC contracts.

I work for a Top 10 national company. Along with our peers we are down to staffing of 25% our peak and less than we had a decade ago. Profits are slim to none across the board and most are just happy to have cash flow and a bit of reserves. In my sector we were BIG IS/IT infrastructure spenders. Heck, a few years ago we built a mirror of our data center on the west coast just as a back up in a lovely building in case we were down due to a hurricane for a week. Sky was the limit back then.

 

[alkemyst]

I'll even go on a limb and say marketing is MORE important to the business than engineering. It's maybe sad to think about it like that, but true.

I'd say that was the case about 99% of the time. Marketing can totally save a failed product even if done right (which sadly is very very wrong and a big part of the problems our economy is facing).

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

IT people are like a commodity, and right now supply outpaces demand.

Seriously, being an IT professional here in 2009 is like being a UAW member working for GM in 1979. Times are tough when you only have a limited skillset and there are half a million folks in the same boat.

maybe help desk techs.

 

[Modular]

I really hope you're kidding. You can't google good decision making or good design.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=good+decision+making



I haaaaaad to!

 

[drebo]

Working as a systems integrator, I can say first hand that people are realizing the need for expanding their IT infrastructures. People are starting to realize that their $500/mo point-to-point T1s aren't cost effective and that if an investment of $5000 up front saves them $750 per month, it's a GOOD THING. Additionally, we're seeing people who have been sitting on 5-10 year old servers start to realize that they need to upgrade...either because their software packages aren't supporting Windows 2000/2003 or because they're starting to fail.

We're seeing people realize that faster equipment will allow them to be more efficient. Scenarios where running fiber instead of using that wireless bridge based on 802.11g makes a whole department able to work faster and generate revenue. Most businesses in the SMB market don't see the big picture and don't understand that spending a little now can save a boatload and generate more revenue later.

Part of VoIP, as spidey mentioned, is unified communications. It's a buzzword, sure, but it really is more efficient. Fax to email, voicemail to email, find-me-follow-me...features like this make VoIP incredibly useful. Combine that with a mobile phone compatible with ActiveSync or that can run a SIP client and now you take your office with you.

Spidey is right...IT spending will increase dramatically over the next 6-12 months, and it will be for efficiency's sake. Companies have been sitting on their money for the last year or so and have not been spending on IT. We're slowly moving out of that. I'm not sure what effect that will have on the job market for in-house IT, but I know that as an outside consulting firm, we're getting a LOT more work.

 

[ed21x]

Top talent will always rise to the top and command their price no matter where they are at in the food chain. But the people that build it are always at the lower end of the totem pole. Engineers are at the bottom of the totem pole, they don't directly generate revenue. They are and always will be a fixed cost.

They don't make the company money. Fixed cost, that's why engineer's salaries are capped at a ceiling - you're a fixed expense, a resource.

It's a sad and true conclusion that an engineer has to realize. An engineer is a grunt and other people tell him what to do, what to design, etc.

IT's are not engineers. In fact, most companies reserve the title 'engineer' for management, while those with AA's and a bunch of certs are given titles of 'Techs.' From reading your posts, Spidey07, you are an engineer. As a working engineer, it is my job to come up with a game plan and have the techs implement it. It is also the engineers job to convey the what is happening to other departments. Very very different, and it is not semantics.

 

[MotF Bane]

IT's are not engineers. In fact, most companies reserve the title 'engineer' for management, while those with AA's and a bunch of certs are given titles of 'Techs.' From reading your posts, Spidey07, you are an engineer. As a working engineer, it is my job to come up with a game plan and have the techs implement it. It is also the engineers job to convey the what is happening to other departments. Very very different, and it is not semantics.

So what are your degrees/certs/qualifications?

 

[alkemyst]

Working as a systems integrator, I can say first hand that people are realizing the need for expanding their IT infrastructures. People are starting to realize that their $500/mo point-to-point T1s aren't cost effective and that if an investment of $5000 up front saves them $750 per month, it's a GOOD THING. Additionally, we're seeing people who have been sitting on 5-10 year old servers start to realize that they need to upgrade...either because their software packages aren't supporting Windows 2000/2003 or because they're starting to fail.

We're seeing people realize that faster equipment will allow them to be more efficient. Scenarios where running fiber instead of using that wireless bridge based on 802.11g makes a whole department able to work faster and generate revenue. Most businesses in the SMB market don't see the big picture and don't understand that spending a little now can save a boatload and generate more revenue later.

Part of VoIP, as spidey mentioned, is unified communications. It's a buzzword, sure, but it really is more efficient. Fax to email, voicemail to email, find-me-follow-me...features like this make VoIP incredibly useful. Combine that with a mobile phone compatible with ActiveSync or that can run a SIP client and now you take your office with you.

Spidey is right...IT spending will increase dramatically over the next 6-12 months, and it will be for efficiency's sake. Companies have been sitting on their money for the last year or so and have not been spending on IT. We're slowly moving out of that. I'm not sure what effect that will have on the job market for in-house IT, but I know that as an outside consulting firm, we're getting a LOT more work.

People have migrated away from point to points for a long time now except for specialized niches. Maybe outside the major metro areas this has been slow to come...

 

[spidey07]

I'd really love to believe this, but I think we are no where near a boom yet and definitely not going to do another 'dot com' deal for a while.
<snip>

It's coming and I can't accurately predict it, but it's coming.

2000 - everything replaced
2005 - got two years free after 3 year capital depreciation
2006 - infrastructure can't support business needs, build new apps
2009 - everything has changed, communications have changed, wifi everywhere, apps everywhere
2010 - infrastructure can't support 2010 application and business needs

 

[alkemyst]

IT's are not engineers. In fact, most companies reserve the title 'engineer' for management, while those with AA's and a bunch of certs are given titles of 'Techs.' From reading your posts, Spidey07, you are an engineer. As a working engineer, it is my job to come up with a game plan and have the techs implement it. It is also the engineers job to convey the what is happening to other departments. Very very different, and it is not semantics.

I have seen many managers that have been engineers, but I have not seen many company's management being many them.

As a matter of fact except in the most technical of sectors much of management is more Business-sided than science/engineering.

 

[drebo]

Degrees/certs/etc mean nothing. It's all about experience and the ability to present yourself well to your interviewer and management. If you are articulate and appear to know what you're doing and have the experience to back it up, you'll get a job. Anyone can get certifications...in fact, there are classes you can take that teach you how to pass the CCIE R&S exam and lab...they don't teach you HOW to do the work, just how to pass the test. Certs don't really mean much anymore.

That said, experience isn't a surefire indicator either...I've met my fair share of "IT experts" that have "20 years experience" and didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

Oh, also...managed services are WAY popular right now. Companies LOVE not to have to capitalize things. How to get rich quick in today's IT world? Figure out how to sell something needed as a service.

 

[alkemyst]

It's coming and I can't accurately predict it, but it's coming.

2000 - everything replaced
2005 - got two years free after 3 year capital depreciation
2006 - infrastructure can't support business needs, build new apps
2009 - everything has changed, communications have changed, wifi everywhere, apps everywhere
2010 - infrastructure can't support 2010 application and business needs

don't see the economy in that mix. I saw your 2000 deal in pretty much 2002, 2004, 2006.

Most businesses need email and the ability to call their staff. simple blackberry stuff.

There are some booming, but I would say if we were at the cusp of a total IS revamp nationwide our economists would be talking a lot more about this revival.

I am willing to bet 2010 will be just a sliver better than 2009 and it will be at least 2012 before we see noticeable improvements across the board. Our first need is going to be getting about 10% of our workforce out there that are under/unemployed back to speed.

I am sure in your area you may be on to something, but nationally I don't think anyone is seeing this.