The sad state of Russia

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Two articles of interest:

Russia Halts Activities of Many Groups From Abroad

Russia on Thursday suspended the activities of Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the International Republican Institute and more than 90 other foreign nongovernmental organizations, saying they failed to meet the registration requirements of a controversial new law designed to bring activists here under much closer government scrutiny.
...
Activists complained, however, that the requirements of the law are so vague and cumbersome that meeting the deadline was extremely difficult. Russian officials, they said, nitpicked their way through the submitted documents.

The local Human Rights Watch operation, for instance, called itself the "Representative Office of the Non-Governmental Organization Human Rights Watch in the Russian Federation." Officials at the registration office rejected that description and said the group should call itself the "Representative Office of the Corporation Human Rights Watch Inc. (USA) in the Russian Federation."

That change, among others, required Human Rights Watch to send its submission back to its headquarters in New York to have the document revised and re-notarized, then retranslated into Russian and re-notarized in Russia.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co.../19/AR2006101900831.html?nav=rss_world


And this one

The hardest word

Oct 12th 2006 | MOSCOW
From The Economist print edition
A murder, a grudge, deportations and what they say about Russia's worrying political direction. Is it time to use the f-word?
Reuters

?PROVOCATION? is an old Soviet game that can be hard to follow. When two countries employ the same techniques, luring the other into useful folly, it is harder still. In the spat between Russia and Georgia, it has begun to seem that what looked like an overreaction by the Kremlin?and thus a victory, however pyrrhic, for the Georgians?may have a very different purpose and meaning.

The Kremlin loathes Georgia, once a cherished vassal, with the special wrath reserved for wayward loved ones. To the Russians, Mikhail Saakashvili, Georgia's president, is an American puppet, hell-bent on taking his country into NATO, and the arch-carrier of the germ of post-Soviet revolution. For his part, Mr Saakashvili is irate over Russia's meddlesome backing for South Ossetia and Abkhazia, two regions of Georgia that broke away in the early 1990s. Georgia's arrest last month of a handful of Russian intelligence officers (terrorists, insists Mr Saakashvili) may have been a counter-provocation, aimed at garnering international sympathy.

If that was the plan, it probably worked: the Russians went berserk. Even though the men were swiftly deported, Russia recalled its ambassador, evacuated other Russians, severed transport and postal links with Georgia?and then imposed a raft of punitive measures against the legions of ethnic Georgians (many of them Russian citizens) living and working in Russia itself.

In Moscow, hundreds have been arrested and deported (pictured above); celebrities with Georgian names harassed; Georgian-owned businesses raided and closed. The manager of one Georgian restaurant says the staff are in hiding; another says the water has been turned off. The police, meanwhile, asked Moscow schools for lists of children with Georgian surnames, though Dmitri Peskov, a Kremlin spokesman, terms the request a ?disgusting? excess of zeal. Now we understand how Chechens living here feel, says a doctor, who like many Moscow Georgians is a refugee from Abkhazia.

New immigration laws, explicitly targeted against Georgians, are promised; so are restrictions on the remittances that help prop up Georgia's economy; Russians allege they contribute to its militarisation. Another hike in the price of Russian gas seems likely (there was one last winter, along with mysterious simultaneous explosions in both export pipelines). Mr Saakashvili may have underestimated the further damage the Kremlin can do to Georgia. He may also have over-estimated the outside help he can expect. ?Russia sees Georgia as a bastion of the West,? he complains, ?but the West doesn't.?

For all that, Georgia will survive the confrontation. But can Russia? The Kremlin's escalation of it is an extreme example of another Soviet habit Mr Putin has inherited: using foreign enemies as scapegoats and tools in domestic politics. Past targets have included America, Ukraine, and foreign do-gooders allegedly engaged in espionage. This row comes as anxiety mounts over the question of the succession to Mr Putin when his second (and supposedly final) presidential term ends in 2008. A foreign threat, even a bogus one, will help keep the electorate pliant, whatever the Kremlin decides to do.

This scaremongering is matched by the Kremlin's shifting stance towards xenophobic nationalism, already starkly manifest in a plague of racist murders by skinheads (often un- or under-punished). An anti-Caucasian riot in Kondopoga in northern Russia last month was what once would have been called a pogrom.

Until recently, the Kremlin has tried to ?ride the tiger? of extreme nationalism, as Dmitri Trenin, of the Carnegie think-tank in Moscow, puts it, through a risky double strategy: portraying itself as a bulwark against extremism, but also trying to harness nationalist instincts for its own ends. It is widely thought to have created the nationalist Motherland party to siphon votes away from the Communists. (Motherland is now being merged with two other parties into what will become the main ?opposition??almost certainly a completely loyal one). Mr Putin seems now to be giving the tiger freer rein.

For example, he last week enjoined his ministers to protect the interests of ?Russia's native population? against the ethnic gangs who, he said, control the street markets. Such gangs are ?a reality?, says the Kremlin's Mr Peskov, in justification. But after a racist bombing in a Moscow market killed a dozen people in August, Mr Putin's remarks were at best inadvisable; and in what is?however much some ethnic Russians might wish otherwise?a multi-ethnic country, potentially disastrous.

So, in a different way, might be the growing squeeze on foreign energy firms. Big investments are running into trouble, and after years of dangling the carrot of outside involvement in the giant offshore Shtokman gasfield, Gazprom, the state-run gas giant, now says it will go it alone.

The state's attitude to both business and Georgia demonstrates Mr Putin's failure to create the ?dictatorship of the law? that he once promised. Untrammelled by normal constraints such as an independent judiciary or a genuine opposition, the Kremlin makes and breaks laws as it pleases. The growth of racist violence is both evidence and result of a broader lawlessness. Lack of faith in government institutions, and especially in the police, says Eduard Ponarin of St Petersburg's European University, leads some to seek other forms of redress. A recent string of high-profile contract-killings?of a top central banker and of an engineer for a gas company that is in dispute with the government?are another sign of this lawlessness. On October 7th, Anna Politkovskaya, a journalist and campaigner (see our obituary), died in the same way.

According to some (including Mr Putin), her murder was another provocation, designed to discredit the Russian authorities whom she bravely criticised. But whoever killed her, Mr Putin shares the blame for having made independent journalism both rare and perilous.
Dictatorship of the lawless

Russia's huge size and troubled history make any comparisons risky. Yet some see historical parallels in present trends. Yegor Gaidar, a former prime minister, draws an analogy with inter-war Germany, which like post-Soviet Russia experienced economic chaos, then a period of stabilisation in which post-imperial nostalgia took hold. Vladimir Ryzhkov, one of the few remaining independent parliamentarians, worries that Mr Putin seems to be switching from an imperial idea of Russia towards one more resembling a ?Reich?.

History also offers a term to describe the direction in which Russia sometimes seems to be heading: a word that captures the paranoia and self-confidence, lawlessness and authoritarianism, populism and intolerance, and economic and political nationalism that now characterise Mr Putin's administration. It is an over-used word, and a controversial one, especially in Russia. It is not there yet, but Russia sometimes seems to be heading towards fascism.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_RDPTVJS


Its sad to see everything in Russia take a turn towards this horrible authoritarianism. I remember a time when there was talk of them joining the EU, hah. The worst thing is that even while this is happening, they're getting richer and are trying to assert themselves more. I suppose the silver lining is that with low birth rates and life expectancy, its population is projected to decline from 143m to 111m by 2050, making it considerably smaller compared to other nations.
 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
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Meanwhile, Russia gets along nicely now with China, which needs Russia's resources.
But the non-profit thing is a wash: they are well-known portals for epionage.
And the Georgia-Russia thing has been going on since the US decided, after the fall of USSR, to actively buddy-up with former soviet states.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Russia has been historically the poor man of Europe---always behind the curve---but huge and brimming with potential---they really got kicked at the start of ww2, but ended up
being the decisive factor that beat Hitler---and won an Empire for their troubles---and lost it all fifty years later---now they come into the 21'st century---still brimming with potential, and lucky enough to be sitting on vast pools of oil.

Russia is coming back---but Putin ain't got much soul----but no one ever accused GWB of being a good judge of anything.

But soon both GWB and Putin will pass into history---and both nations wish for wiser leadership---that will heal old wounds and move their nations forward to peace and prosparity---but both countries have a long history of picking leaders that will pick open old wounds and open new ones.

But the real country to watch will be China----as we more closer to Orwells vision of 1984--with three super powers.
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
Putin is one of the greatest dangers to the world, and it's sad that our government does not in any way acknowledge how Soviet-like things are in Putin's Russia.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,870
11,553
136
And what makes it even more depressing is that Condi is supposed to be a Russia expert.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Sad state of Russia? You must be joking. Ask your average Russian to compare the state today versus the state in the 90's and you'll realize how much of a joke that statement is.
And if you think Russia has turned its back on democracy under Putin, do I need to remind you that Yeltsin actually shelled the parliament building with tank rounds when they didn't go along with him. The only people sad about the state of Russia are those who like a weak Russia that can be molded to their interests.
Maybe if these non-profit groups checked their geopolitical agendas at the door, instead of being western shills, they would be welcome in Russia.
 

Trianon

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2000
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www.conkurent.com
Originally posted by: senseamp
Sad state of Russia? You must be joking. Ask your average Russian to compare the state today versus the state in the 90's and you'll realize how much of a joke that statement is.
And if you think Russia has turned its back on democracy under Putin, do I need to remind you that Yeltsin actually shelled the parliament building with tank rounds when they didn't go along with him. The only people sad about the state of Russia are those who like a weak Russia that can be molded to their interests.
Maybe if these non-profit groups checked their geopolitical agendas at the door, instead of being western shills, they would be welcome in Russia.


Bravo, FTW!
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
But the real country to watch will be China----as we more closer to Orwells vision of 1984--with three super powers.

Who is going to be the 3rd super power? India?
I dont think it is going to be Russia. They can barely afford a military much less become a super power.

 

Tangerines

Senior member
Oct 20, 2005
304
0
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Sad state of Russia? You must be joking. Ask your average Russian to compare the state today versus the state in the 90's and you'll realize how much of a joke that statement is.
And if you think Russia has turned its back on democracy under Putin, do I need to remind you that Yeltsin actually shelled the parliament building with tank rounds when they didn't go along with him. The only people sad about the state of Russia are those who like a weak Russia that can be molded to their interests.
Maybe if these non-profit groups checked their geopolitical agendas at the door, instead of being western shills, they would be welcome in Russia.

Isn't the whole point of a democracy to allow opposing viewpoints, instead of exporting/arresting/murdering anyone who opposes Putin's agenda?
 

Paddington

Senior member
Jun 26, 2006
538
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I think people are different, with different prefrences for their government. Contrary to GWB, not every country wants a Constitution written by Thomas Jefferson.

It's hard for Americans to fathom, but in many countries people actually *like* strong central command, with harsh policies to enforce law and order, and even suppression of dissension. A good example of this might be Singapore, which looks like it might be Miami, but has very different philosophies on the role of government.

Likewise, the Russians have always favored strong central power and perhaps even a certain amount of brutality, from the days of the Czar, to the Soviets, and now Putin.
 

Termagant

Senior member
Mar 10, 2006
765
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Originally posted by: Paddington
I think people are different, with different prefrences for their government. Contrary to GWB, not every country wants a Constitution written by Thomas Jefferson.

It's hard for Americans to fathom, but in many countries people actually *like* strong central command, with harsh policies to enforce law and order, and even suppression of dissension. A good example of this might be Singapore, which looks like it might be Miami, but has very different philosophies on the role of government.

Likewise, the Russians have always favored strong central power and perhaps even a certain amount of brutality, from the days of the Czar, to the Soviets, and now Putin.

Yes... This is the vital fact that many Americans cannot understand. Many foreign societies do not want more freedom.

If you think it is bad in America how some people think "only Bush can save us from the Terrists," well in Russia many think only Putin can save them from the Terrists, Chechnyans, Gays, Western spies, etc. And in China many think only strong authoritarian government can protect them from civil unrest, disturbances to their economic growth, the Taiwanese rogue state, Fulang Gong, Lil Kim in NK, the War Criminal Japanese, the Neocon Imperialists, etc. etc.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Its sad to see everything in Russia take a turn towards this horrible authoritarianism.

It's sad to see Russia, China, and the US turn towards authoratarianism.

Let's not forget that we've seen widespread voter fraud, the theft of our presidency, highly undemocratic practices from vastly increasing the fascist relationship between corporations and the republican party in the K street project to increased gerrymandering, the legalization of torture and the threat that the president can order anyone in the world held secretly without trial, and a massive increase in the secrecy of government from the public in the last 6 years, with the republicans cheering away.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: Tangerines
Originally posted by: senseamp
Sad state of Russia? You must be joking. Ask your average Russian to compare the state today versus the state in the 90's and you'll realize how much of a joke that statement is.
And if you think Russia has turned its back on democracy under Putin, do I need to remind you that Yeltsin actually shelled the parliament building with tank rounds when they didn't go along with him. The only people sad about the state of Russia are those who like a weak Russia that can be molded to their interests.
Maybe if these non-profit groups checked their geopolitical agendas at the door, instead of being western shills, they would be welcome in Russia.

Isn't the whole point of a democracy to allow opposing viewpoints, instead of exporting/arresting/murdering anyone who opposes Putin's agenda?

Russia has a right to allow or not allow any foreigners to be on its soil, as does any other country. If these nonprofits are in Russia to help Russians, that's one thing. If they are there to try to shape Russian politics to be friendly to their own agendas, then that's a completely different thing that must be stamped out. As far as murder, that's nothing more than a conspiracy theory. Putin doesn't need to kill opposition, because Russian opposotion is a played out joke that had its chance in the 90's, and brought nothing but suffering to the people.
 

borosp1

Senior member
Apr 12, 2003
512
503
136
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Tangerines
Originally posted by: senseamp
Sad state of Russia? You must be joking. Ask your average Russian to compare the state today versus the state in the 90's and you'll realize how much of a joke that statement is.
And if you think Russia has turned its back on democracy under Putin, do I need to remind you that Yeltsin actually shelled the parliament building with tank rounds when they didn't go along with him. The only people sad about the state of Russia are those who like a weak Russia that can be molded to their interests.
Maybe if these non-profit groups checked their geopolitical agendas at the door, instead of being western shills, they would be welcome in Russia.

Isn't the whole point of a democracy to allow opposing viewpoints, instead of exporting/arresting/murdering anyone who opposes Putin's agenda?

Russia has a right to allow or not allow any foreigners to be on its soil, as does any other country. If these nonprofits are in Russia to help Russians, that's one thing. If they are there to try to shape Russian politics to be friendly to their own agendas, then that's a completely different thing that must be stamped out. As far as murder, that's nothing more than a conspiracy theory. Putin doesn't need to kill opposition, because Russian opposotion is a played out joke that had its chance in the 90's, and brought nothing but suffering to the people.


I think your watching/reading too much state controlled media in the so called democratic Russia.

In Putin's Russia he authorizes torture and kidnapping of regular citizens from potential breakaway republics. In the so called free economy they force a owner of an oil company on some phony charges to give up his company and sent the guy to jail so Russia can own the oil company.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: borosp1
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Tangerines
Originally posted by: senseamp
Sad state of Russia? You must be joking. Ask your average Russian to compare the state today versus the state in the 90's and you'll realize how much of a joke that statement is.
And if you think Russia has turned its back on democracy under Putin, do I need to remind you that Yeltsin actually shelled the parliament building with tank rounds when they didn't go along with him. The only people sad about the state of Russia are those who like a weak Russia that can be molded to their interests.
Maybe if these non-profit groups checked their geopolitical agendas at the door, instead of being western shills, they would be welcome in Russia.

Isn't the whole point of a democracy to allow opposing viewpoints, instead of exporting/arresting/murdering anyone who opposes Putin's agenda?

Russia has a right to allow or not allow any foreigners to be on its soil, as does any other country. If these nonprofits are in Russia to help Russians, that's one thing. If they are there to try to shape Russian politics to be friendly to their own agendas, then that's a completely different thing that must be stamped out. As far as murder, that's nothing more than a conspiracy theory. Putin doesn't need to kill opposition, because Russian opposotion is a played out joke that had its chance in the 90's, and brought nothing but suffering to the people.


I think your watching/reading too much state controlled media in the so called democratic Russia.

In Putin's Russia he authorizes torture and kidnapping of regular citizens from potential breakaway republics. In the so called free economy they force a owner of an oil company on some phony charges to give up his company and sent the guy to jail so Russia can own the oil company.
This is exactly why Russians don't give a damn what the West thinks about them and have a bad taste for Democracy.
He got the company for next to nothing in the rigged privatization of the early 90s. And he probably would have gotten away with it if he didn't imagine himself to be a political figure. That moron actually thought people liked him and would support him, when in fact they hated his guts. While he enjoyed incredible wealth, the people who actually paid for or built those companies during the Soviet days were starving. So I guess the lesson is, if you are a crook who stole a multi-billion dollar company, pay your taxes, keep a low profile, and certainly don't use that stolen wealth for political power, or you'll get smacked to prison where you belong.
 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
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Don't forget folks--we are getting most of our info about Russia through the looking glass of the press corps.
 

walkur

Senior member
May 1, 2001
774
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81
Russia is a mess allright, and it needs a strong man to fix it.
Did some work there for a friend a year ago, and the level of organized crime puts the sicilian maffia to shame.

I don't thinks there's a single goverment official that's not "on the take"
 

fornax

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
6,866
0
76
Originally posted by: senseamp
Sad state of Russia? You must be joking. Ask your average Russian to compare the state today versus the state in the 90's and you'll realize how much of a joke that statement is.
And if you think Russia has turned its back on democracy under Putin, do I need to remind you that Yeltsin actually shelled the parliament building with tank rounds when they didn't go along with him. The only people sad about the state of Russia are those who like a weak Russia that can be molded to their interests.
Maybe if these non-profit groups checked their geopolitical agendas at the door, instead of being western shills, they would be welcome in Russia.

Bravo! It's rare to see here such a brief yet to the point analysis. Half of the so called NGO groups in Russia would be banned ouright in the USA or their leaders put on trial for being non-registered agents of other governments. Russia's laws covering them are milder than the corresponding laws in many countries, including US and EU.

In fact, Russia has been quite patient. One of the Czech "humanitarian" groups was found to operate safe houses for Chechen terrorist and store weapons for them. Can you imagine the howls of outrage if something similar happened here? Yet the Russians didn't go further than throwing out the Czech "humanitarians".