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The Rise of the Bottom Fifth

Stunt

Diamond Member
A very interesting article and the numbers actually surprised me. With all the talk from American liberals about the horrible situation the poor are in these day, I wasn't expecting this significant earnings growth over the last 14 years. I don't really like how the author has used the data to polticize the issue and dragged in the 2008 Presidential election, but the points made are relevant.

Enjoy.

'Progressive' politics not so progressive

Neil Reynolds
Wednesday, June 06, 2007

OTTAWA ? Which American families with children increased their earnings most in the past 15 years - the poorest or the richest? For most people, the answer comes as a surprise. For "progressive" people, it comes as a shock. The answer? The poorest.

Divided into five groups with the same number of families in each, the highest-income group reported 50-per-cent higher earnings in 2005 than in 1991. Moving down, the next three groups reported 20-per-cent higher earnings.

At the bottom, the poorest group recorded 80-per-cent higher earnings. Adjusted for inflation, these families - the poorest 20 per cent of families with children in the United States - achieved by far the highest percentage earnings gains.

And these poor families mostly increased their incomes the old-fashioned way - by working more.

In 1991, these families had income of $12,400 (U.S.) a year. They collected $6,100 from "earned income" - wages; $4,000 in cash payments from various welfare programs; and $2,000 from such sources as gifts, inheritances and interest income. They collected another $300 in "earned-income" tax credits, a federal rewards program that compensates people who lose welfare payments when they work longer hours, earn more wages and no longer qualify for welfare.

By 2005, these families had income of $16,800, an increase of 35 per cent. They collected $11,000 from wages, an increase of 80 per cent, and received $700 in cash welfare payments, a decline of 82.5 per cent. They collected $2,700 from other sources - and, reflecting the movement from welfare to wages, $2,400 as earned-income tax credits. Now they earned almost twice as much in wages and got only half as much income from the government.

The U.S. Congressional Budget Office (CBO), the federal research agency that produces independent economic analysis for the Senate and the House of Representatives, published these conclusions last month in a report that dispels some of the popular mythology of worsening economic inequality in the U.S. - mythology now emerging as demagogic fodder for the 2008 presidential election campaign.

Writing last week in The Washington Post - "The Rise of the Bottom Fifth" - Brookings Institution economist Ron Haskins called this return to work by poor families with children "the biggest success in American social policy in decades." The CBO numbers, he said, should make Republicans proud: "Low-income families with children increased their work effort, many of them in response to the 1996 welfare reform law that was designed to have exactly this effect."

"These families not only increased their earnings but also slashed their dependency on cash welfare," he said. "In 1991, more than 30 per cent of their income came from cash welfare payments. By 2005, it was 4 per cent. Earnings up, welfare down - that's the definition of reducing welfare dependency."

In the 1990s, to reverse a prolonged descent into dependency by the American underclass, the Republicans needed the support of Democratic President Bill Clinton - who had campaigned for Republican votes in 1992, and won them, by promising "to end welfare as we know it." The historic bipartisan legislation - extravagantly called "the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act" - ended cash welfare as a federal entitlement for poor families with children.

The fashionable American left, identifying itself as "progressive," is now ascendant in the Democratic Party as the presidential campaigns of Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards demonstrate. In a major campaign speech last week, entitled "A Progressive Vision for America," Mrs. Clinton asserted that she considered herself "a thoroughly optimistic and modern progressive."

Can "progressive" politics, however, be either optimistic or modern - in any degree other than rhetorically? The "progressive" philosophy now concedes that free markets can work - but only when governments do the thinking for them. It requires a pessimistic doomsday sensibility. Checking over this baggage, Washington labour economist Stephen Rose warns liberal Democrats that they must stop exaggerating the extent of poverty. "It is an occupational hazard of people with big hearts," he says, "to overestimate the share of the population living in economic distress." Not to mention demagogues. Class-warfare politics survives on the preservation of the underclass.

In a report written for the Progressive Policy Institute, Mr. Rose argues that progressives keep trying to win national elections in the U.S. with fewer and fewer core supporters. "How else are we to explain the Reagan Democrats," he asks, "who have flummoxed the Democratic Party for two-and-a-half decades?"

From his own statistical analysis of economic classes in the U.S., Mr. Rose calculates that progressive politics can appeal to 23 per cent of the population. Now, with the rise of the bottom fifth, the core constituency of "progressive" politics looks to be shrinking yet again.

© The Globe and Mail
Source
 
Interesting...both in what the data suggests and how wrong the analysis provided in the article is. A rise in wages is excellent, but it is not an indictment of the progressive movement nor a sign that the problem of poverty has been solved. While the increase is impressive, it still puts the average miserably low. The ratio of wages to welfare is encouraging, but I'm not sure conservative policies can sustain the increase over the long term without progressive policies like job training and what not to lend a hand. I think both sides can agree that cash handouts don't work, but I think it's a little premature to claim that the "magic" of the free market has worked once again.
 
Data is worthless without being adjusted for inflation and cost of living.
Minimum wage was $3.80 at the start of 1991.
National minimum wage is what, $5.85 now? That's a 54% increase in minimum wage. Not to mention the average amount of hours being worked by americans has been slowly increasing over the years. In many areas, living costs cause the de facto minimum wage to be around $7, which is around an 80% increase.

Depending on how you choose to measure inflation, the value of the 2007 US dollar is somewhere between ~70% (a bit under that actually) to ~45% the value of a 1991 dollar.
 
Actually the talk is about the middle class these days, not the poor.

Talk about the poor is so yesterday. Sounds like a desperate GOP.
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Interesting...both in what the data suggests and how wrong the analysis provided in the article is. A rise in wages is excellent, but it is not an indictment of the progressive movement nor a sign that the problem of poverty has been solved. While the increase is impressive, it still puts the average miserably low. The ratio of wages to welfare is encouraging, but I'm not sure conservative policies can sustain the increase over the long term without progressive policies like job training and what not to lend a hand. I think both sides can agree that cash handouts don't work, but I think it's a little premature to claim that the "magic" of the free market has worked once again.

I'd say the welfare reforms of the 1990s and a booming economy are to blame. The key however is the govt pulled away and the results are obvious, people picked themselves up.
And a booming economy helped these people more than any govt program.

I am not sure what you are trying to say about being able to sustain themselves. i think after 15 years it is clear it will sustain itself. The miserable wages argument has to be taken in context. These are the bottom ring of our country. if they made 30K a year, the avg wage would probably be 80K.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
A very interesting article and the numbers actually surprised me. With all the talk from American liberals about the horrible situation the poor are in these day, I wasn't expecting this significant earnings growth over the last 14 years. I don't really like how the author has used the data to polticize the issue and dragged in the 2008 Presidential election, but the points made are relevant.

Enjoy.

'Progressive' politics not so progressive
Neil Reynolds
Wednesday, June 06, 2007

And these poor families mostly increased their incomes the old-fashioned way - by working more.

You went to college?

You and this Neil Reynolds guy are sad cases.

Your argument is over with those three words "by working more."

Do you know why they have to work two and three low wage jobs?

Because the cost of everything except there pay has gone up.

I can't even write anymore as the steam is blowing out my ears.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
A very interesting article and the numbers actually surprised me. With all the talk from American liberals about the horrible situation the poor are in these day, I wasn't expecting this significant earnings growth over the last 14 years. I don't really like how the author has used the data to polticize the issue and dragged in the 2008 Presidential election, but the points made are relevant.

Enjoy.

'Progressive' politics not so progressive
Neil Reynolds
Wednesday, June 06, 2007

And these poor families mostly increased their incomes the old-fashioned way - by working more.

You went to college?

You and this Neil Reynolds guy are sad cases.

Your argument is over with those three words "by working more."

Do you know why they have to work two and three low wage jobs?

Because the cost of everything except there pay has gone up.

I can't even write anymore as the steam is blowing out my ears.
My other thread explains that the poor have more leisure time than they did in the past; actually working less and watching more tv, etc.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
A very interesting article and the numbers actually surprised me. With all the talk from American liberals about the horrible situation the poor are in these day, I wasn't expecting this significant earnings growth over the last 14 years. I don't really like how the author has used the data to polticize the issue and dragged in the 2008 Presidential election, but the points made are relevant.

Enjoy.

'Progressive' politics not so progressive
Neil Reynolds
Wednesday, June 06, 2007

And these poor families mostly increased their incomes the old-fashioned way - by working more.

You went to college?

You and this Neil Reynolds guy are sad cases.

Your argument is over with those three words "by working more."

Do you know why they have to work two and three low wage jobs?

Because the cost of everything except there pay has gone up.

I can't even write anymore as the steam is blowing out my ears.
My other thread explains that the poor have more leisure time than they did in the past; actually working less and watching more tv, etc.

That's a load of bull.
 
Of course it's nonsense, misrepesented statistics. Ask how the top 1% have done during that period... (hint, think hundreds of percent increase). So much for those poor "wealthiest familes".

A relevant statistic - the top 5% have gone from a 50-50 split of the nation's wealth to a 75-25 split from the late 70's to the late 90's. That's huge increasing of the concentration of wealth.
 
Originally posted by: Ferocious
Actually the talk is about the middle class these days, not the poor.

Talk about the poor is so yesterday. Sounds like a desperate GOP.

and he's not even American GOP. He's a Canadian.

There has to be something in it for him for the GOP to maintain control down here.

Who are these people he keeps posting their articles and why?

Why are all these people so consistently against the poor?

The very same people they have decimated by design to begin with?

Very fishy goings on.
 
Craig, I am sure your wealth stats are correct.
But you have to admit that wealth is very difficult for people to accumulate, especially those at the bottom.

And Fox5 You don?t have to adjust the numbers for inflation. The figures show what each group gained in income and those at the bottom had the largest gain.
Even after adjusting for inflation those at the bottom will still have the largest gain.
 
Originally posted by: Craig234
Of course it's nonsense, misrepesented statistics. Ask how the top 1% have done during that period... (hint, think hundreds of percent increase). So much for those poor "wealthiest familes".

A relevant statistic - the top 5% have gone from a 50-50 split of the nation's wealth to a 75-25 split from the late 70's to the late 90's. That's huge increasing of the concentration of wealth.

Who cares how the top 1% or the top 5% have done if the bottom 20% have seen their purchasing power increase as well? Economics is not static. We are not divvying up pieces of pie. Your flaws in thinking begin with the fact that your initial premises are based off of relatives -- percentages, "splits," and "concentrations" -- to describe things that are not in fact relative.
You see... that's where your ideology causes you to deviate from reality. Look around you. Or are you really going to try and argue that the bottom 50% in the late 70s was better off than they are today? Based purely on the disparity of wealth between the top and the bottom as opposed to actual conditions and standard of living? Would you also be happier if we were all economically equal, but lived in mud huts? :roll:
 
I
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Craig234
Of course it's nonsense, misrepesented statistics. Ask how the top 1% have done during that period... (hint, think hundreds of percent increase). So much for those poor "wealthiest familes".

A relevant statistic - the top 5% have gone from a 50-50 split of the nation's wealth to a 75-25 split from the late 70's to the late 90's. That's huge increasing of the concentration of wealth.

Who cares how the top 1% or the top 5% have done if the bottom 20% have seen their purchasing power increase as well? Economics is not static. We are not divvying up pieces of pie. Your flaws in thinking begin with the fact that your initial premises are based off of relatives -- percentages, "splits," and "concentrations" -- to describe things that are not in fact relative.
You see... that's where your ideology causes you to deviate from reality. Look around you. Or are you really going to try and argue that the bottom 50% in the late 70s was better off than they are today? Based purely on the disparity of wealth between the top and the bottom as opposed to actual conditions and standard of living? Would you also be happier if we were all economically equal, but lived in mud huts? :roll:

If we are not dividing pie then why not pay the poor the same amount of money as the rich make? Give everybody a million a year. Tax revenues will go up as well as most people's standard of living. It will be great.
 
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Craig234
Of course it's nonsense, misrepesented statistics. Ask how the top 1% have done during that period... (hint, think hundreds of percent increase). So much for those poor "wealthiest familes".

A relevant statistic - the top 5% have gone from a 50-50 split of the nation's wealth to a 75-25 split from the late 70's to the late 90's. That's huge increasing of the concentration of wealth.

Who cares how the top 1% or the top 5% have done if the bottom 20% have seen their purchasing power increase as well? Economics is not static. We are not divvying up pieces of pie. Your flaws in thinking begin with the fact that your initial premises are based off of relatives -- percentages, "splits," and "concentrations" -- to describe things that are not in fact relative.
You see... that's where your ideology causes you to deviate from reality. Look around you. Or are you really going to try and argue that the bottom 50% in the late 70s was better off than they are today? Based purely on the disparity of wealth between the top and the bottom as opposed to actual conditions and standard of living? Would you also be happier if we were all economically equal, but lived in mud huts? :roll:

If we are not dividing pie then why not pay the poor the same amount of money as the rich make? Give everybody a million a year. Tax revenues will go up as well as most people's standard of living. It will be great.

😕

Like I said, Moonie, it's not static. If you gave everybody a million a year, then a million would stop being a lot of money.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig, I am sure your wealth stats are correct.
But you have to admit that wealth is very difficult for people to accumulate, especially those at the bottom.

And Fox5 You don?t have to adjust the numbers for inflation. The figures show what each group gained in income and those at the bottom had the largest gain.
Even after adjusting for inflation those at the bottom will still have the largest gain
.

This reminds me of an informal observation I made. Those who stop being a monk and join society had an average sex life increase of 900% a year. That is amazing right.
 
From the ever- disingenuous PJ-

You don?t have to adjust the numbers for inflation. The figures show what each group gained in income and those at the bottom had the largest gain.

Depends on how the "group" is defined. The sad truth is that most of the economic gains made in the last 25 years have gone to the top 1%, mostly to the top .1%.

Their share of income has increased at the expense of everybody else-

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/250.html

And, uhh, transfer payments to low income families are still quite large, for a variety of reasons, including what amounts to subsidies for low wage employers via EITC-

http://www.taxfoundation.org/p...ations/show/22364.html

The real squeeze isn't on those at the very bottom, anyway- the .gov will still keep 'em alive- but rather on America's working class, those in the 20-50% range, basically 1/3 of American families.
 
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Craig234
Of course it's nonsense, misrepesented statistics. Ask how the top 1% have done during that period... (hint, think hundreds of percent increase). So much for those poor "wealthiest familes".

A relevant statistic - the top 5% have gone from a 50-50 split of the nation's wealth to a 75-25 split from the late 70's to the late 90's. That's huge increasing of the concentration of wealth.

Who cares how the top 1% or the top 5% have done if the bottom 20% have seen their purchasing power increase as well? Economics is not static. We are not divvying up pieces of pie. Your flaws in thinking begin with the fact that your initial premises are based off of relatives -- percentages, "splits," and "concentrations" -- to describe things that are not in fact relative.
You see... that's where your ideology causes you to deviate from reality. Look around you. Or are you really going to try and argue that the bottom 50% in the late 70s was better off than they are today? Based purely on the disparity of wealth between the top and the bottom as opposed to actual conditions and standard of living? Would you also be happier if we were all economically equal, but lived in mud huts? :roll:

If we are not dividing pie then why not pay the poor the same amount of money as the rich make? Give everybody a million a year. Tax revenues will go up as well as most people's standard of living. It will be great.

That sounds great in theory, in practice however 1 million dollars ends up being nothing.
Remember capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth. Socialism is the equal distribution of poverty.

I honestly cant believe you wrote that with a straight face.
 
So the poor's income went from $12,400 to $16,800 that is a difference of 35%. You said the rich's income up 50. So even your own paper disproves your point. The poor are getting poor and the rich are getting richer. But it gets worse for the poor, their income only increased due to working more hours more hours worked means more expenses related for child care, food, transportation, clothing, etc. Add in inflation and I'm sure the poor are not better off, but hey the rich are so who cares.
 
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Craig234
Of course it's nonsense, misrepesented statistics. Ask how the top 1% have done during that period... (hint, think hundreds of percent increase). So much for those poor "wealthiest familes".

A relevant statistic - the top 5% have gone from a 50-50 split of the nation's wealth to a 75-25 split from the late 70's to the late 90's. That's huge increasing of the concentration of wealth.

Who cares how the top 1% or the top 5% have done if the bottom 20% have seen their purchasing power increase as well? Economics is not static. We are not divvying up pieces of pie. Your flaws in thinking begin with the fact that your initial premises are based off of relatives -- percentages, "splits," and "concentrations" -- to describe things that are not in fact relative.
You see... that's where your ideology causes you to deviate from reality. Look around you. Or are you really going to try and argue that the bottom 50% in the late 70s was better off than they are today? Based purely on the disparity of wealth between the top and the bottom as opposed to actual conditions and standard of living? Would you also be happier if we were all economically equal, but lived in mud huts? :roll:

If we are not dividing pie then why not pay the poor the same amount of money as the rich make? Give everybody a million a year. Tax revenues will go up as well as most people's standard of living. It will be great.

😕

Like I said, Moonie, it's not static. If you gave everybody a million a year, then a million would stop being a lot of money.

Then every year you increase it to where it is a lot of money. Problem solved.
 
Why would anyone chose a system in which some can have much and others almost nothing when if you distribute things equally everybody who has almost nothing gets a tiny bit more?

Why reward those who are personally ambitious when you could reward the whole human race by creating a society in which the real rewards go to those who give to others.

We could turn our government and educational system into a machine that has as its aim and goal the promotion of the wealth of all people, no?

You greedy folk know how you are self motivated to perform. Just imagine how a person who feels God within him or her will perform. Imagine if love of others instead of self infatuation to mask self hate were the real reward. Oh it is but not many know it.

Consider the sparrow. It toils not, neither does it want. One has within ones self riches beyond belief, but for attachment and worship of the self.

Capitalism and competition are nothing but the manifestations of self hate directed outward at others.
 
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Why would anyone chose a system in which some can have much and others almost nothing when if you distribute things equally everybody who has almost nothing gets a tiny bit more?

Why reward those who are personally ambitious when you could reward the whole human race by creating a society in which the real rewards go to those who give to others.

We could turn our government and educational system into a machine that has as its aim and goal the promotion of the wealth of all people, no?

You greedy folk know how you are self motivated to perform. Just imagine how a person who feels God within him or her will perform. Imagine if love of others instead of self infatuation to mask self hate were the real reward. Oh it is but not many know it.

Consider the sparrow. It toils not, neither does it want. One has within ones self riches beyond belief, but for attachment and worship of the self.

Capitalism and competition are nothing but the manifestations of self hate directed outward at others.
I don't understand your logic, Moonie. Who is the more greedy? The person who accepts others and the world around him as they are/as it is, or the one who wants to force the world into his personal ideal?

We're not "choosing" a system. This is just the way it is. And if you're gonna quote Matthew 6 to me, I suggest you turn the page to Matthew 7. Pull that plank from your own eye -- fix yourself as an individual first -- then come to the rest of and talk about the specks in our eyes.
You see, that's the evil you're decrying, and the self-hate that you personally are manifesting. When you can stop blaming your faults on society, and learn to accept and love the rest of us AS WE ARE, then you might have something to stand on. Until then, you're just telling the rest of us that we're evil, we suck, and we're greedy because we won't conform to your own selfish image of how you think we should be.
Have you ever stopped to consider that? You speak of love, but what is love but to set people free? You speak of self-hate, but how does self-hate ever manifest itself except in the desire to control and have power over others?

I don't want to live in a world where certain people are allowed to abuse our democracy for their own self-interested goals, no matter how altruistic they claim those goals to be. I want to live in a world where every single individual is given the chance to be what he wants to be. Because it's his life -- not yours, not mine -- and like yours and mine, it's the only one he's ever going to have. And it's profoundly wrong of you to seek to control that life just because you don't like the image in your own mirror.
 
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