"THE REIGN IN SPAIN FALLS MAINLY ON THE LAME"

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dpm

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2002
1,513
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Actually the bombing in Madrid could possibly be a wake up call for the rest of the Western Europeans as it proves to them that an event like 9/11 can happen in Europe.

There exists an absolutely infuriating assumption amongst many americans post 9/11 that the rest of the world has no idea what terrorism is, or how to deal with it.
Never mind the fact that the Spanish have been dealing with a sustained campaign of terror for years, or the British & Irish & French etc. Europeans know perfectly well how vulnerable we are, just as we know the near-impossible difficulty in eradicating the problem. The
Spanish certainly aren't going to bow down to terrorism - they've been fighting it steadfastly for a long time - they have been fighting it steadfastly since back when the US was still providing terrorists with money and ammunition and calling them freedom fighters.

What the Spanish have done is to reinforce democracy. The previous government took spain into a war and occupation of Iraq, telling the people that although Iraq wasn't a threat today, one day it might be, so this would reduce terrorism and make the world safer. Many, many disagreed with them, thinking that what would be seen as an arbitary occupation of a middle eastern state would instead revitalise al queda, merely giving them a new banner to wave, and a recruiting bonanza. Nevertheless the spanish government took the country to war whether the populace agreed or not. And now, when their promises ring false, the government cynically tried to blame ETA, when it was far too early to know who was to blame, simply to draw the flak away from them.
In a democracy, if you do that to your electorate, they will vote you out, and vote in someone who shares their wishes.
 

DashRiprock

Member
Aug 31, 2001
166
0
76
After seeing how Spain capitulated so quickly, the terrorists in Iraq are stepping up hitting "soft" targets again. It worked when they blew up the UN building in Iraq last year. Now yesterday the hotel blown up where western civilian workers were staying, the German & Dutch civilian water workers shot and killed, and now today another hotel bombed in Iraq. Iraqi civilian deaths are turning the Iraqi populace against the coalition troops. They're trying to break the will of the people to have their country's troops pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan. What would happen to Iraq and Afghanistan if the troops left? The Taliban and other extreme Islamists groups would move back in and we'd be right back where we started.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
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Originally posted by: DashRiprock
After seeing how Spain capitulated so quickly, the terrorists in Iraq are stepping up hitting "soft" targets again. It worked when they blew up the UN building in Iraq last year. Now yesterday the hotel blown up where western civilian workers were staying, the German & Dutch civilian water workers shot and killed, and now today another hotel bombed in Iraq. Iraqi civilian deaths are turning the Iraqi populace against the coalition troops. They're trying to break the will of the people to have their country's troops pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan. What would happen to Iraq and Afghanistan if the troops left? The Taliban and other extreme Islamists groups would move back in and we'd be right back where we started.

Capitulated? Yeah, it's all the fault of the Spanish. You could argue that the root cause to all subseqent Al-Queda, et al, activity is the US reaction to 9/11.
 

DashRiprock

Member
Aug 31, 2001
166
0
76
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
After seeing how Spain capitulated so quickly, the terrorists in Iraq are stepping up hitting "soft" targets again. It worked when they blew up the UN building in Iraq last year. Now yesterday the hotel blown up where western civilian workers were staying, the German & Dutch civilian water workers shot and killed, and now today another hotel bombed in Iraq. Iraqi civilian deaths are turning the Iraqi populace against the coalition troops. They're trying to break the will of the people to have their country's troops pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan. What would happen to Iraq and Afghanistan if the troops left? The Taliban and other extreme Islamists groups would move back in and we'd be right back where we started.

Capitulated? Yeah, it's all the fault of the Spanish. You could argue that the root cause to all subseqent Al-Queda, et al, activity is the US reaction to 9/11.

For what? For trying to destroy the enemy that's out to destroy us? Oh, you'd rather let them keep on attacking and killing and training more terrorists.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
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Originally posted by: DashRiprock
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
After seeing how Spain capitulated so quickly, the terrorists in Iraq are stepping up hitting "soft" targets again. It worked when they blew up the UN building in Iraq last year. Now yesterday the hotel blown up where western civilian workers were staying, the German & Dutch civilian water workers shot and killed, and now today another hotel bombed in Iraq. Iraqi civilian deaths are turning the Iraqi populace against the coalition troops. They're trying to break the will of the people to have their country's troops pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan. What would happen to Iraq and Afghanistan if the troops left? The Taliban and other extreme Islamists groups would move back in and we'd be right back where we started.

Capitulated? Yeah, it's all the fault of the Spanish. You could argue that the root cause to all subseqent Al-Queda, et al, activity is the US reaction to 9/11.

For what? For trying to destroy the enemy that's out to destroy us? Oh, you'd rather let them keep on attacking and killing and training more terrorists.

You miss my point. Your thinly veiled infference is that Spain is somehow the cause of recent increased terrorist activity. I gave you a counterpoint to help you put it into perspective.
 

DashRiprock

Member
Aug 31, 2001
166
0
76
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
After seeing how Spain capitulated so quickly, the terrorists in Iraq are stepping up hitting "soft" targets again. It worked when they blew up the UN building in Iraq last year. Now yesterday the hotel blown up where western civilian workers were staying, the German & Dutch civilian water workers shot and killed, and now today another hotel bombed in Iraq. Iraqi civilian deaths are turning the Iraqi populace against the coalition troops. They're trying to break the will of the people to have their country's troops pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan. What would happen to Iraq and Afghanistan if the troops left? The Taliban and other extreme Islamists groups would move back in and we'd be right back where we started.

Capitulated? Yeah, it's all the fault of the Spanish. You could argue that the root cause to all subseqent Al-Queda, et al, activity is the US reaction to 9/11.

For what? For trying to destroy the enemy that's out to destroy us? Oh, you'd rather let them keep on attacking and killing and training more terrorists.

You miss my point. Your thinly veiled infference is that Spain is somehow the cause of recent increased terrorist activity. I gave you a counterpoint to help you put it into perspective.

You can't rule it out. Look at the number of attacks against soft targets in Iraq since the Spain attack, coincidence, possible.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
After seeing how Spain capitulated so quickly, the terrorists in Iraq are stepping up hitting "soft" targets again. It worked when they blew up the UN building in Iraq last year. Now yesterday the hotel blown up where western civilian workers were staying, the German & Dutch civilian water workers shot and killed, and now today another hotel bombed in Iraq. Iraqi civilian deaths are turning the Iraqi populace against the coalition troops. They're trying to break the will of the people to have their country's troops pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan. What would happen to Iraq and Afghanistan if the troops left? The Taliban and other extreme Islamists groups would move back in and we'd be right back where we started.

Capitulated? Yeah, it's all the fault of the Spanish. You could argue that the root cause to all subseqent Al-Queda, et al, activity is the US reaction to 9/11.

For what? For trying to destroy the enemy that's out to destroy us? Oh, you'd rather let them keep on attacking and killing and training more terrorists.

You miss my point. Your thinly veiled infference is that Spain is somehow the cause of recent increased terrorist activity. I gave you a counterpoint to help you put it into perspective.

You can't rule it out. Look at the number of attacks against soft targets in Iraq since the Spain attack, coincidence, possible.

No. More likely that attacks would be coordinated for maximum effect and fear.
 

DashRiprock

Member
Aug 31, 2001
166
0
76
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
After seeing how Spain capitulated so quickly, the terrorists in Iraq are stepping up hitting "soft" targets again. It worked when they blew up the UN building in Iraq last year. Now yesterday the hotel blown up where western civilian workers were staying, the German & Dutch civilian water workers shot and killed, and now today another hotel bombed in Iraq. Iraqi civilian deaths are turning the Iraqi populace against the coalition troops. They're trying to break the will of the people to have their country's troops pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan. What would happen to Iraq and Afghanistan if the troops left? The Taliban and other extreme Islamists groups would move back in and we'd be right back where we started.

Capitulated? Yeah, it's all the fault of the Spanish. You could argue that the root cause to all subseqent Al-Queda, et al, activity is the US reaction to 9/11.

For what? For trying to destroy the enemy that's out to destroy us? Oh, you'd rather let them keep on attacking and killing and training more terrorists.

You miss my point. Your thinly veiled infference is that Spain is somehow the cause of recent increased terrorist activity. I gave you a counterpoint to help you put it into perspective.

You can't rule it out. Look at the number of attacks against soft targets in Iraq since the Spain attack, coincidence, possible.

No. More likely that attacks would be coordinated for maximum effect and fear.

Those too may be coming what with more elections to come in coalition countries.

edit: fixed typos, typing too fast...
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Hastert, DeLay, and the other GOP fools are in rare form. Here's what happened in Spain:

1) Aznar committed his country to a war DESPITE the opposition of the overwelming majority of Spaniards. They protested before, during, and after the war but in general said, "no big deal . . . we send a few troops . . . stay in the US's good graces . . . US takes most of the flak and pays the bills . . . no harm no foul." [/i]Aznar's party on the way to electoral victory.[/i]

2) Madrid bombing: Al Qaeda has had a presence in Spain for YEARS . . . were they planning attacks? Sure! But likely they were planning attacks on Western nations they had a particular reason to dislike. The Spanish have been cracking down on Al Qaeda for years but it's easy to believe that Aznar's support for Bush War 2003 moved Spain up in the terrorist attack queue. Aznar's party still likely on the way to electoral victory.

3) Government rxn to Madrid: It's ETA! It MUST be ETA! We have evidence it's ETA! Spanish people are pissed at ETA . . . then a few step back and say, "what sense does that make?!" As the evidence for ETA wanes and evidence for Al Qaeda waxes the Spanish get REALLY pissed. Aznar's party takes it on the chin.

Maybe someone needs to poll some Spaniards . . . but my guess is it wasn't the bombing per se that doomed Aznarians. It was their reflexive BS propaganda. The subsequent name-calling by American pols will do nothing to change the minds of most Spaniards. They did NOT support Bush War 2003 in March 2003 so why should they support it in 2004?
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,526
605
126
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
If Kerry wins I am going into the "Not My President" T-Shirt, Bumper Sticker and Button Business

You could already be making a bundle from the current fool.

Oh you mean "Not My Candidate"

no...cuz I will sell them with pictures of him wearing his Enemy Uniform.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
http://www.counterpunch.org/hamod03182004.html

Contempt of the World
Hastert, Bush and Cheney on Spain
By SAM HAMOD and ALFREDO REYES

It is no wonder that the Europeans wonder about the "leadership" in America, from the provincial, uneducated president, GW Bush, now to the leader of the House of Representatives, Dennis Hastert of rural Illinois. Unfortunately, Hastert doesn't know as much as some of his fellow farmers from mid-Illinois. He showed this yesterday, when he said, that Spain was "showing cowardice in the face of terrorism" by voting Aznar out of office and that Zapatero was running away from a battle against terrorism by criticizing the American occupation of Iraq (Zapatero has called the American occupation of Iraq, "a fiasco.")

Unfortunately, Mr. Hastert has made the same wrong assumption that Bush has made, neither of them differentiates between a war against terrorists, and this foolish invasion and occupation of Iraq (which had nothing to do with terrorism, and nothing to do with 9/11 no matter how many lies Bush, Blair and Powell put out into the world). Furthermore, Mr. Hastert has shown the same arrogance that many in the administration have shown toward other nations in the past when they disagreed with American policy in Iraq, that these administrations were cowardly, not interested in fighting terrorism and that the people were wrong to vote the way they did. It's amazing to us that American "leaders" know what is best for other countries--in this case, Spain. Remember, they also knew what was best for Chile when they overthrew Allende, Bishop in Grenada, attempts at present to overthrow Chavez with American funds and training, and the decades of activities against Castro and Qaddafi. There is no end to the chutzpah of American politicians; unless you agree with this administration, there must be something wrong with you and your "democracy."

It is time for the American public to put better people into office than such men as Hastert, Cheney and Bush. Their ignorance is scandalous-- at a time when the world is getting smaller, their world view is smaller and so unsophisticated as to make America both feared and a laughing stock to most scholars, politicians and thinkers in the world. Bush, Cheney and their followers showed their ignorance of Islam and Iraq before they went into Iraq. Now they are letting American troops and those nations foolish enough to follow Bush pay the price of this paid-for alliance; this is true if this bombing sequence in Madrid should be proven to be a Muslim group that is either technically or spiritually connected to Al Qa-eda (there are probably many groups that have never been connected in actuality with Al Qaeda, but take Bin Laden and his group as their spiritual stimulus and model but who operate authonomously).

Rational people will understand why the Spanish people are afraid of terroristic attacks from North Africa; after all, Spain is but a stone's throw across the water from Morocco and Algeria, both of which have had bouts of terrorism in their lands. Add to this that many North Africans live in Spain, and that Spain has a large and growing Muslim population (not only from immigration, but also from Mariscos who have reverted to Islam--their original religion that had to be abandoned for centuries under Catholic rule--and others who are converting in large numbers to Islam.)

Hastert, Bush, Cheney and others are thousands of miles away from the major Muslim nations of the world, so it is easy for them to condemn the Spanish and other Europeans for their fears at this time; if they lived in a Spanish or European geographical location, they would not speak so rashly or churlishly or critically of the vote in Spain and the alarm in Europe. But, of course, they had hoped that Aznar would win and that this would have shown the Spanish people had changed their minds of being against the Iraq war to being in favor of it. But no such thing came to pass.

Furthermore, as Mr. Reyes and I have found with the emails coming to us since our article appeared in CounterPunch, many Spanish and Europeans have agreed with us about the fact that Aznar had a very small (1 to 3% ) lead; but as everyone knows about national polls, most of have error possibility of from 4 to 5%; thus, Aznar might not even have had an actual lead, but only a theoretical one before his loss. Many of these emails were critical of U.S. media and U.S. perceptions of Spain, U.S. criticism of the vote and were upset that the U.S. felt it had a right to criticize Zapatero for doing what was best for Spain by planning to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq unless the UN is in charge.

It is time for American leaders to understand others in the world. This does not mean America will be weaker for this, instead, it means that it is stronger for being able to empathize into the shoes of others. Certainly Hastert, Cheney and Bush's attacks on Spain do not show understanding, wisdom or diplomacy--just as their previous attacks on France and England showed the same lack of these qualities and caused more problems than good. It is time for American leaders to either grow up when dealing not only with Spain and Europe, but also with educated, wise, cunning and intelligent leaders like Sistani, the leaders in China and in Asia. If America doesn't, then it shall be the nation on the outside looking in as the world grows, comes together in unified ways and leaves America isolated intellectually, politically, economically and militarily.

Sam Hamod is the editor of www.todaysalternativenews.com and Alfredo Reyes is a writer based in Madrid, Spain.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
It is no wonder that the Europeans wonder about the "leadership" in America, from the provincial, uneducated president, GW Bush, now to the leader of the House of Representatives, Dennis Hastert of rural Illinois.
Typical Euroweenie elitist, condescension. It's going to be very interesting to see what the Spanish do when the next attack against them happens, or when the French or the Germans are attacked.

Now Spain has earned the emnity of both the terrorists and the United States.
God Save and Bless Spain, because Spain is on its own now.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Quit apologizing for Bush, heartsurgeon. You're embarrassing yourself.

Don't suppose the thought that there's more to running a government than keeping an eye on terrorists ever occurred to you, eh? And, how is not supporting the deceptive war on Iraq giving in to terrorists? The war on Iraq was not about terrorism, remember? Bush told us it was about the WMDs.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
It is no wonder that the Europeans wonder about the "leadership" in America, from the provincial, uneducated president, GW Bush, now to the leader of the House of Representatives, Dennis Hastert of rural Illinois.
Typical Euroweenie elitist, condescension. It's going to be very interesting to see what the Spanish do when the next attack against them happens, or when the French or the Germans are attacked.

Now Spain has earned the emnity of both the terrorists and the United States.
God Save and Bless Spain, because Spain is on its own now.

why would Spain be on its own. Zapatero has the full support of other EU countries.

the coalition of the bribed is falling apart

first Spain and there is also some criticism now from Poland.

give it a couple of elections and all the other European lapdogs are out of power :beer:

3 hurays for the "old Europe"
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
full support of other EU countries
HAHAHAHAHA

that's really funny Freegeeks!

the entire Euroweenie Union is furiously trying to weenie out of the 2000 Nice treaty, and screw Spain by sharply reducing it's voting power in the EU?

with friends like that, who needs terrorists?
 

dpm

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2002
1,513
0
0
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Typical Euroweenie elitist, condescension.

We have a strong contender for the 'Least Self-aware Post of the Year' award here :D
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
full support of other EU countries
HAHAHAHAHA

that's really funny Freegeeks!

the entire Euroweenie Union is furiously trying to weenie out of the 2000 Nice treaty, and screw Spain by sharply reducing it's voting power in the EU?

with friends like that, who needs terrorists?

if you would follow the news you would know that Zapatero has already announced that he also did not agree with Aznar on the issue of voting power :D

Poland is then going to be isolated about this and will back off (just like they are already doing about their unconditional support for the USA in Iraq).

In the end it's simple, Germany and France are the largest financers of the EU and Poland is going to be one of the largest receivers. Don't bite the hand that feeds you because it's going to spank you.

Even Tony Blair has altered his position against France and Germany in the last months!!!!

I can't wait for you next Eurowheenie argument :D

It's hilarious to see the reaction of Bush worshippers like you when they start to realize that their nice little coalition is falling apart and that the "Old wheenie Europe" is getting stronger by the month

Bush better start calling Mongolia, Palau and Micronesia for troops




 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
Zapatero has already announced that he also did not agree with Aznar on the issue of voting power
OLD NEWS....he is Euroweenie Capitulator in the finest French tradition.
.
I found your comment about Poland very revealing
Don't bite the hand that feeds you because it's going to spank you
gee, i always thought the 2000 Nice Treaty was already agreed to. so, trying to insist that your allies keep up their end of an agreement is "biting the hand that feeds you?" This is uniquely Euroweenie way of looking at things. Gee, the less continental, less nuanced way of looking at a treaty is the BOTH SIDES STICK TO THE AGREEMENT. I supposed that is a bizarre idea to Euroweenies.

This all leads me back to my original point about the Euroweenie Union i stated months ago...do you Belgians really trust the Germans? Do the French really trust the Germans? Do any of you really trust the French? Quite frankly, the way i see the EU going, the French and the Germans want to control everything and everybody, and will basically do whatever they think will optimize their own situations at the expense of everyone else. Why exactly the Germans are allowing the French to lead them around by the "nez" is beyond me, must be that famous German angst at play....who knows....


 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
"I'm going to defend maximum possible power for Spain in the European Union," Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said in an interview with Spanish television. "My primary goal is that we have a European constitution as soon as possible."
HAHAHAHA...the spaniard is plain old Euroweenie again! Now he's changing his tune!! maybe he's not going to capitulate to the E.U. (only the terrorists, their a tougher crowd after all!)...HAHHAA
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
"I'm going to defend maximum possible power for Spain in the European Union," Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said in an interview with Spanish television. "My primary goal is that we have a European constitution as soon as possible."

looks OK to me



 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
This all leads me back to my original point about the Euroweenie Union i stated months ago...do you Belgians really trust the Germans?

more then the Dub, that's for sure
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
gee, i always thought the 2000 Nice Treaty was already agreed to. so, trying to insist that your allies keep up their end of an agreement is "biting the hand that feeds you?" This is uniquely Euroweenie way of looking at things. Gee, the less continental, less nuanced way of looking at a treaty is the BOTH SIDES STICK TO THE AGREEMENT. I supposed that is a bizarre idea to Euroweenies.

you must be confused with Dubya blowing up the ABM treaty with the Russians :D