The reason Intel is not producing hot chips anymore

[Bubbleawsome]

I noticed that BestBuy has a dedicated PC gaming endcap / aisle now. If that isn't mainstream...

Yeah, my best buy was selling an EVGA 780ti. 😀 Too bad they still only sell crappy 500w PSUs.

 

[tolis626]

PC gaming is a 20 billion/year industry, that's less than half of what Intel alone earns per year. Add Microsoft, Adobe, Dell, Acer, IBM, Lenovo, Asus, Nvidia, and all other companies of the PC ecosystem, and yes, gaming becomes a niche.

A 20 billion (20.000.000.000 for those who don't understand the number) dollar industry is a niche because a couple of hardware/software companies make more than that?Well,haven't heard that one before.With that line of thought,anything that makes less than Intel does isn't a niche,right?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Unfortunately, the "post-PC era" is finally starting to sink into my noggin.

I've been drooling over the 1037U Gigabyte ITX board at Newegg.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128679

I was entertaining the thought of building a cheap PC with it, and possibly selling it.

Then I was looking at FW, and Microcenter is having a sale on tablets.
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/1321964/

Then it finally hit me. How can I compete with these cheap imported Chinese tablets, with PCs I build, for customers that just want basic internet access? I can't. The reality of it is depressing. No wonder HP considered pulling out of the PC market. Desktop PCs are no longer ubiquitious, they are a niche. Tablets are ubiquitious, they are the future, for the mass-market. (If you are on AT, you're not part of the mass-market.)

Edit: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, they say... I think I'm going to purchase my first Android Tablet. (I do already have an entry-level Android 2.3 smart-phone, with a single-core and 512MB RAM. I don't use it for much, just phone calls and the occasional web browsing. Browsing the web just sucks battery.)

 

[Torn Mind]

Unfortunately, the "post-PC era" is finally starting to sink into my noggin.

I've been drooling over the 1037U Gigabyte ITX board at Newegg.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128679

I was entertaining the thought of building a cheap PC with it, and possibly selling it.

Then I was looking at FW, and Microcenter is having a sale on tablets.
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/1321964/

Then it finally hit me. How can I compete with these cheap imported Chinese tablets, with PCs I build, for customers that just want basic internet access? I can't. The reality of it is depressing. No wonder HP considered pulling out of the PC market. Desktop PCs are no longer ubiquitious, they are a niche. Tablets are ubiquitious, they are the future, for the mass-market. (If you are on AT, you're not part of the mass-market.)

Edit: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, they say... I think I'm going to purchase my first Android Tablet. (I do already have an entry-level Android 2.3 smart-phone, with a single-core and 512MB RAM. I don't use it for much, just phone calls and the occasional web browsing. Browsing the web just sucks battery.)

I'm not convinced that these generics will hold much clout beyond a gift for kids or for the totally clueless to try for a month and then return. It is the Nexus 7 and its many competitors that is siphoning buyers with $200 to burn while the Ipads snatch the buyers with $500 to burn. Bay Trail will give those with $300-$500 a full Windows experience on a tablet. That's your real competition.

 

[Torn Mind]

Tablets are great for content consumption. A few seconds and you are already browsing, checking email, watching movies or reading a book. That in a very convenient form factor, anywhere you want.

Notebooks are great for productivity. Get your work wherever/whenever you want, and if you have Haswell + SSD you can get small lead times to start, just like tablets.

But.... What's the desktop killer app? Games? PC gaming isn't mainstream. A keyboard and a monitor? Multi-monitor setup? These goes with the notebook. That's not mainstream too. There is no killer app for the desktop anymore. Only if you game, do a lot of video encoding or download torrents like hell the desktop becomes an interesting alternative.

The desktop's killer app is the web browser. The mouse and printer are the killer hardware it has. A big monitor is also useful. Browsing a giant wad of tabs on a 7" is not optimal, and copy+paste is slower on an Android tablet. In addition, there is no substitute for CTRL+F on a tablet.

They are still useful. It is just that in developed countries, there is no pressing need for many with web browsers to get a new one because their old ones, with an SSD upgrade, do the job just fine.

To me, it is like talking about nails. There are nails specialized for certain environments, like galvanized nails for boards to be covered with siding, and while using an inappropriate one, such as interior drywall nails, will do for a while, it does not provide optimal results. In that same vein, Desktops might be the most suitable tools for some folks, notebooks for others, and tablets yet for others.

Tablets though, still depend on the PC for functionality, as they sometimes need to be serviced, such as having to recover from a soft brick due to the updating process messing things up.

 

[mrmt]

A 20 billion (20.000.000.000 for those who don't understand the number) dollar industry is a niche because a couple of hardware/software companies make more than that?Well,haven't heard that one before.With that line of thought,anything that makes less than Intel does isn't a niche,right?

Yes, you can consider that. Intel won't bother to make a CPU exclusively for the gaming crowd, Microsoft also won't make a dedicated operational system for gaming... I think you can see the drill. The gaming market is important, but it's not strong enough to dictate trends to the entire industry.

 

[mrmt]

The desktop's killer app is the web browser. The mouse and printer are the killer hardware it has. A big monitor is also useful. Browsing a giant wad of tabs on a 7" is not optimal, and copy+paste is slower on an Android tablet. In addition, there is no substitute for CTRL+F on a tablet.

What you are describing also applies to Ultrabooks or even convertibles. Unless you need a lot of CPU/GPU performance, a notebook with keyboard and monitor can fully replace your desktop *and* give you mobility when necessary. The only question left is whether mobility is worth paying for you.

 

[tolis626]

Yes, you can consider that. Intel won't bother to make a CPU exclusively for the gaming crowd, Microsoft also won't make a dedicated operational system for gaming... I think you can see the drill. The gaming market is important, but it's not strong enough to dictate trends to the entire industry.

Unless I missed something,there is no CPU made especially with certain workloads in mind.There is no special CPU for office work or for professional video editing either.What does that mean?People who type in MS Word are a niche?On the contrary,though,no GPUs are made with web browsing or document editing in mind.The vast majority of GPUs are targeted towards either gamers or professionals.

On the software side,aside from the fact that games are in large part responsible for Windows still surviving this long,and aside from the fact that DirectX (By Microsoft themselves) and the console OS's are software tailored to gaming especially,there is also SteamOS now,a whole OS made with gaming in mind.Will it take off or sink?We don't know.But it's there and Valve must have their reason for making it.They aren't a charity and,last time I checked,you need a large number of people to make enough money in such ventures.

What you are describing also applies to Ultrabooks or even convertibles. Unless you need a lot of CPU/GPU performance, a notebook with keyboard and monitor can fully replace your desktop *and* give you mobility when necessary. The only question left is whether mobility is worth paying for you.

The price one has to pay for mobility (Proper mobility,not these sorry excuses for a mobile device some gaming oriented laptops are) isn't only monetary,but also in performance.Yeah,decent laptops with modern CPUs and GPUs and SSDs and whatnot are fast enough for most tasks average Joe will throw at them.

Problem is,not everyone is average Joe.Even my sister,the most technologically ignorant human on this side of the planet,starts bitching when her laptop is slow and doesn't perform what she wants,how she wants.Don't forget that these people abuse their machines more than most.Yeah,we here that are (At least supposedly) more tech savvy than most people out there do tend to stress our machines (Heavy games and other software,a gazillion apps and browser tabs open etc) quite a lot.We,however,also know how to properly run diagnostics,cleaning utilities and we know enough to start at least closing stuff when there's just too much,among other things.That's not the case with average Joe (Why the heck is it even Joe anyway? 😛 ).Some people just don't know when to stop.

Saturation and maturity of the PC is,in my opinion,the primary reasons for slowing sales.I tend to believe those who say that PC sales will just balance somewhere and stay there for the foreseeable future.Tablets and portables aren't here to replace the PC.They're here to do what the PC can't.If anything,I think they complete it.Imagine if the synchronization of your smartphone,tablet,laptop and desktop was done properly.That way,your desktop is at home and is as powerful as it needs be,with everything you might ever need.Then,the other devices (Whichever you might choose) let you in some sense take your PC with you.If for example you could turn on your tablet and it synced your open browser tabs from your PC and then you had OTA access to your files and stuff like that,the tablet wouldn't replace the PC,it would just be a remote access portable computer of sorts.

Possibilities are endless if you come to think about it.Saying X will die or Y will dominate the market at this point is plain stupid.The trend may support portables,but don't forget that the trend for mobile devices (Phones,MP3 player,PDAs,PVPs etc and there was not even a thought of tablets) once was "Make it as small as possible" (Anyone remember the NeoNode N1?Ugly,useless POS...).Less than a decade later,it's all about being the biggest in something (No pun intended) and 10+" slates are considered mobile.

I say patience.Exciting times are ahead of us.

 

[Homeles]

Yes, you can consider that. Intel won't bother to make a CPU exclusively for the gaming crowd, Microsoft also won't make a dedicated operational system for gaming... I think you can see the drill. The gaming market is important, but it's not strong enough to dictate trends to the entire industry.

Also, if the gaming industry as a whole is in fact a $20B industry (looks like it's closer to $65B), I guarantee the number of AAA games that would even benefit from a gaming-optimized processor (I haven't read the whole thread, so I may be wrong, but these seems like what you're talking about) is even smaller.

It's like SiliconWars' fallacious argument that GPU performance is more important than CPU performance in tablets, despite the fact that the vast majority of mobile games aren't even 3D and/or graphically intensive.

 

[mrmt]

Unless I missed something,there is no CPU made especially with certain workloads in mind.There is no special CPU for office work or for professional video editing either.What does that mean?People who type in MS Word are a niche?On the contrary,though,no GPUs are made with web browsing or document editing in mind.The vast majority of GPUs are targeted towards either gamers or professionals.

Yes, you missed. Intel is cramming a lot of features on their chips specifically for the mobile market. Aggressive power management, built in VRM, deep sleep states and the whole smash. Same for servers. Intel designs chips specifically for servers. But... does Intel designs chips specifically for desktops of specifically for games? no, they don't.

On the software side,aside from the fact that games are in large part responsible for Windows still surviving this long,and aside from the fact that DirectX (By Microsoft themselves) and the console OS's are software tailored to gaming especially,there is also SteamOS now,a whole OS made with gaming in mind.Will it take off or sink?We don't know.But it's there and Valve must have their reason for making it.They aren't a charity and,last time I checked,you need a large number of people to make enough money in such ventures.

Is it? What sustains Microsoft is not the gaming market. They would have killed windows and told everyone to move to the Xbox if they could. What sustains Microsoft is the myriad of corporate software that runs on Windows. This is *the* market that matters for them, not gaming. And Valve is small, very small. Their annual revenues are peanuts compared to the kind of money we are talking here.

The price one has to pay for mobility (Proper mobility,not these sorry excuses for a mobile device some gaming oriented laptops are) isn't only monetary,but also in performance.Yeah,decent laptops with modern CPUs and GPUs and SSDs and whatnot are fast enough for most tasks average Joe will throw at them.

Problem is,not everyone is average...

There is a niche for Porsche cars and there is a niche for Dodge RAM. There is also a niche for soy chocolate and a niche for diamond iphone covers. The fact that there are people working and making money in a given segment is no proof that this segment is big enough to dictate any market trend.

There are less and less people needing desktop performance levels, and gaming is not something that will reverse this trend. And I'd like to point out that the desktop decline is a trend that started well before the tablet trend. Mobile chips became majority some 4 years ago, and AMD was well on its way last year.

I asked for the desktop killer app and the answers I got can be divided in three groups:

1) The extra comfort from a keyboard, mouse and big monitor, something you can get with your laptop

2) People that run fancy software that most people don't, which makes them a niche.

3) People that game, which also makes them a niche.

There is the money argument here, but with notebooks costing as much as a desktop today (with the performance trade off, of course), this is a non-issue.

The desktop has became the odd product, something you can avoid if money is not a problem and you are not using fancy software or heavy gaming.

 

[Torn Mind]

What you are describing also applies to Ultrabooks or even convertibles. Unless you need a lot of CPU/GPU performance, a notebook with keyboard and monitor can fully replace your desktop *and* give you mobility when necessary. The only question left is whether mobility is worth paying for you.

All that just means is that the web browser is a killer app for both notebooks and desktops. The thing is that web browsing doesn't require all that many resources, so finding a used C2D desktop and slapping an SSD in there can a desktop good enough for that task. It is not necessarily that desktops are replaced. It is just that old ones are providing an adequate level of performance for what the masses want it to do.

The matter is what features are more valuable to the user. Mobility is just one of those features a user cares about. Screen size and screen resolution are a couple other features. Speed, storage space are also things to consider. Of course, there's also cost. Given these many variables and differences in how people value them, there can be many combinations of getter a desktop and a laptop in addition to just having a laptop or just having a desktop to satisfy the user's wants.

For example, perhaps the user likes mobility, but doesn't need much of it. He could simply get a cheaper consumer grade laptop. Those laptops can replace a desktop, but not really all that well. So, he has an i3 desktop for productivity and/or comfort purposes and the laptop for when he has to carry the computer around.
A desktop i3 runs circles on virtually all laptop chips with perhaps the exception of a quad core i7, and for a much lower price.

 

[lopri]

(If you are on AT, you're not part of the mass-market.)

I think I am part of the mass-market. At least in some aspects. Though when I come to this CPU forum once in a while I do feel like I am thrown into an alternate reality. :biggrin:

 

[Morbus]

Unfortunately, the "post-PC era" is finally starting to sink into my noggin.

I've been drooling over the 1037U Gigabyte ITX board at Newegg.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128679

I was entertaining the thought of building a cheap PC with it, and possibly selling it.

Then I was looking at FW, and Microcenter is having a sale on tablets.
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/1321964/

Then it finally hit me. How can I compete with these cheap imported Chinese tablets, with PCs I build, for customers that just want basic internet access? I can't. The reality of it is depressing. No wonder HP considered pulling out of the PC market. Desktop PCs are no longer ubiquitious, they are a niche. Tablets are ubiquitious, they are the future, for the mass-market. (If you are on AT, you're not part of the mass-market.)

Edit: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, they say... I think I'm going to purchase my first Android Tablet. (I do already have an entry-level Android 2.3 smart-phone, with a single-core and 512MB RAM. I don't use it for much, just phone calls and the occasional web browsing. Browsing the web just sucks battery.)

You, Sir, are wrong. Tablets are dying, shoes are what's up. I rarely ever see anyone without at least TWO of them.

Shoes are what's up people! Dell, sell your factories and start making freaking shoes!!!

Tablets though, still depend on the PC for functionality, as they sometimes need to be serviced, such as having to recover from a soft brick due to the updating process messing things up.

Good point.

Microsoft also won't make a dedicated operational system for gaming...

They've been farther away.

To be honest, it would be a fantastic money maker for them. A Windows 8 gaming edition? Minimal investment and loads of people buying it, I have no doubt. But SteamOS will be the one deciding things in that respect.

The gaming market is important, but it's not strong enough to dictate trends to the entire industry.

Exactly. It's mostly about the graphics segment, and even there it's not completely true.

 

[VirtualLarry]

You, Sir, are wrong. Tablets are dying, shoes are what's up.

I know that you are being facetious, but if I'm so wrong, then why can't I unload the two Lenovo desktop PCs that I got for a song, brand-new? Nobody's buying desktops anymore, sorry to say. Unless they're just clueless, which is what I guess I am too, holding on to my desktops. I'm outdated. I'm a dinosaur. When someone needs a device to access the internet, I think of a desktop PC. But nobody else thinks that way, because they didn't grow up with the PC. Kids these days, want tablets. And if they're into "serious" gaming, they'll get a laptop. They don't even consider desktops these days.

 

[Bubbleawsome]

Kids these days, want tablets. And if they're into "serious" gaming, they'll get a laptop. They don't even consider desktops these days.

This is true based off my HS. Only a few (Maybe 50 out of 2600) talk about gaming on anything other than a console. It is so rare we have a club. Only maybe 5 of us have anything other than a laptop or a $400 pc, and they complain. Us 5 have in the range of $1.5k to $6k PC's, so that is rare too. Only 2 are custom built, one is acctually from scratch, and it isn't mine. 😛

 

[cbn]

The desktop's killer app is the web browser. The mouse and printer are the killer hardware it has. A big monitor is also useful. Browsing a giant wad of tabs on a 7" is not optimal, and copy+paste is slower on an Android tablet. In addition, there is no substitute for CTRL+F on a tablet.

They are still useful. It is just that in developed countries, there is no pressing need for many with web browsers to get a new one because their old ones, with an SSD upgrade, do the job just fine.

To me, it is like talking about nails. There are nails specialized for certain environments, like galvanized nails for boards to be covered with siding, and while using an inappropriate one, such as interior drywall nails, will do for a while, it does not provide optimal results. In that same vein, Desktops might be the most suitable tools for some folks, notebooks for others, and tablets yet for others.

Tablets though, still depend on the PC for functionality, as they sometimes need to be serviced, such as having to recover from a soft brick due to the updating process messing things up.

As far as the keyboard and mouse goes, that can be used on the Tablet as well.

Then if it has HDMI, it can be connected to a TV or Monitor.

 

[Torn Mind]

As far as the keyboard and mouse goes, that can be used on the Tablet as well.

Then if it has HDMI, it can be connected to a TV or Monitor.

Mouse, fine. Small keyboards? Consider me skeptical. I like them full-sized. Their lack of storage and sometimes OS limits how much they can take advantage of the HDMI port, although it can work if it is a presentation and is handy to have.

 

[Arkaign]

What didn't they like about the Ultrabooks?

Sorry for the late reply, got buried the past couple of days playing catch-up (got behind thanks to IcePocalypse 2013 here in North Texas, lol).

The performance of the ultrabooks was just too weak for their needs. FWIW, they were using Toshiba and Apple ultrabooks, all 2Ghz and below dual-cores (the fake i7s mostly, with some i5s as well).

 

[Arkaign]

Example, look at this pile :

http://www.toshiba.com/us/computers/laptops/kira/kirabook13/KIRAbook13-i7-touch

$1599.

Sure it's got touch (meh), and a 2560x1440 display, but it's 13", who cares. It also has a DUAL CORE w/HT i7 at 2Ghz (basically a desktop i3 with lower clock and better IGP, big whoop). My clients had older but similar units.

Not a totally horrible system like an Atom or low end AMD, but pretty awful $ for performance. The desktop i7s they now have run absolute circles around them. I've also found that the stock SSDs in almost every unit that comes with them stock has a lower performance than Samsung 840 or similarly competent drives.

 

[Zodiark1593]

Example, look at this pile :

http://www.toshiba.com/us/computers/laptops/kira/kirabook13/KIRAbook13-i7-touch

$1599.

Sure it's got touch (meh), and a 2560x1440 display, but it's 13", who cares. It also has a DUAL CORE w/HT i7 at 2Ghz (basically a desktop i3 with lower clock and better IGP, big whoop). My clients had older but similar units.

Not a totally horrible system like an Atom or low end AMD, but pretty awful $ for performance. The desktop i7s they now have run absolute circles around them. I've also found that the stock SSDs in almost every unit that comes with them stock has a lower performance than Samsung 840 or similarly competent drives.

Wish Intel would kill off the i7 moniker for anything below a quad. And whomever decided touch on a laptop was a good idea should be shot, revived, doused in sulfuric acid, shot, thrown in a ditch, coated in lye, covered in concrete, and made into an outhouse.

But really, it's devices like these that are making Apple computers like like a steal in comparison.

 

[CHADBOGA]

Example, look at this pile :

http://www.toshiba.com/us/computers/laptops/kira/kirabook13/KIRAbook13-i7-touch

$1599.

Sure it's got touch (meh), and a 2560x1440 display, but it's 13", who cares. It also has a DUAL CORE w/HT i7 at 2Ghz (basically a desktop i3 with lower clock and better IGP, big whoop). My clients had older but similar units.

Not a totally horrible system like an Atom or low end AMD, but pretty awful $ for performance. The desktop i7s they now have run absolute circles around them. I've also found that the stock SSDs in almost every unit that comes with them stock has a lower performance than Samsung 840 or similarly competent drives.

That is interesting feedback.

Time & time again we keep hearing people say that computers have long been way faster than people need, so is that saying BS, or were your guys demanding power users?

 

[blastingcap]

PC gaming is a 20 billion/year industry, that's less than half of what Intel alone earns per year. Add Microsoft, Adobe, Dell, Acer, IBM, Lenovo, Asus, Nvidia, and all other companies of the PC ecosystem, and yes, gaming becomes a niche.

It's not exactly growing or shrinking, it's stagnant. But I expect SteamOX/Steambox to shake things up and give PC gaming its mojo back.

 

[Arkaign]

Wish Intel would kill off the i7 moniker for anything below a quad. And whomever decided touch on a laptop was a good idea should be shot, revived, doused in sulfuric acid, shot, thrown in a ditch, coated in lye, covered in concrete, and made into an outhouse.

But really, it's devices like these that are making Apple computers like like a steal in comparison.

I agree. Calling a 2C/4T an i7 is very dubious, and shows a reckless disregard for their customers. Touch is of limited use on something with a kb/touchpad already there.

That is interesting feedback.

Time & time again we keep hearing people say that computers have long been way faster than people need, so is that saying BS, or were your guys demanding power users?

It's not BS to those that are satisfied with them. It's not like the UltraBooks were defective or anything. My users were a lot more power-user centric than most, so the additional lag/delays using the Ultrabooks (and even more so, the hassles of docking/undocking with the USB docks daily) were just an annoyance. Now that they're on desktops, they have a massive increase in grunt. For my top user, I built a i7 @ 4Ghz (very mild OC on a CM 212+ Evo), 16GB DDR3 2400, GT630 (not a heavy video user, but he uses dual 24"), and raid 840 Pros. He said he'll never go back until something mobile can be as fast. But he's usually running 30-50 tabs, a dozen or so Office docs, a bunch of cloud services (local resources for cloud aren't free after all), and so on.

 

[Bubbleawsome]

fek, that is depressing. When I was in HS (not that long ago...) we ALL built our own machines....

It is. Seeing people surprised that you can upgrade a pc, or actually play minecraft with shaders at 60 fps hurts me. They also think a 4 core 3ghz is a 12ghz pc, and the tech class here doesn't help. It makes a pc look super complicated, or not complicated enough so people buy crappy psus and kill stuff. D:
On the other hand, our tech school is amazing. Pc building courses, java coding, c++, iProgramming, etc. it's pretty neat.

 

[kimmel]

This is true based off my HS. Only a few (Maybe 50 out of 2600) talk about gaming on anything other than a console. It is so rare we have a club. Only maybe 5 of us have anything other than a laptop or a $400 pc, and they complain. Us 5 have in the range of $1.5k to $6k PC's, so that is rare too. Only 2 are custom built, one is acctually from scratch, and it isn't mine. 😛

So what you are saying is that it's exactly like (high) schools in the 00's and 90's and 80's. Most people didn't care or know how to build a pc or upgrade one or even know how to run one. It was playstation, n64, snes, nintendo and sports and other things that weren't (general purpose / PC) computers. Computer clubs have never been a mainstream thing as far as I know.

Yes yes, get off my lawn. Thinking things are different yet they are exactly the same is a common ailment.