The Reason for a Good Heater Core

Parkre

Senior member
Jul 31, 2005
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I heard the 77 bonneville is a good choice, but the one NAPA and Oreilly pulled were brass, not copper. So my question is there any other good copper heater cores out there?

on a side note, the guys at the stores weren't excactly helpful or eager to help me find what I wanted (ie, wouldn't check the other 77 bonneville HCs they had in stock). So a specific year and model of car/motorcycle would help.

As for my rig, I have only started. I have the pump and the swiftech storm selected, and might machine my own gpu block, although aquacomputer makes a very nice one. :D

EDIT: The question got off topic and we ended up with reasons why dissimiliar metals are bad. It's not electrolysis, it's electrolytic corrosion or galvanic corrosion.
 

GalvanizedYankee

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Oct 27, 2003
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Stupid question..Why does it have to be copper? Is it because it would be easyer to use lead based solder? Properly cleaded and fluxed, low temp silver solder will give a very acceptable
joint with brass. Brass fitting to brass core.

In the past i have gone through catalogs by heater core demention, but the only real mention of material type was when it was aluminum. I was looking for an obselete automotive application.

Galvanized
 

Elfear

Diamond Member
May 30, 2004
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The ones they pulled should be just fine. I could be wrong but I think the bronze ones work very well too. That's the same heatercore that I'm using and it's awesome.
 

Parkre

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Jul 31, 2005
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when using a brass or aluminum core and copper waterblocks, you get electrolysis, which will corrode the metals.
 

GalvanizedYankee

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Oct 27, 2003
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You have posted the electrolysis problem with disimilar metals more tha once. Link some cooling system info on that. Quite frankly it sounds as if the intended coolent is sulferic acid.

Distilled water and a high end coolent will have the proper PH and no chemical reaction should take place.

If money were not an object, i would go with an aluminum heater core and have the
coolent connections TIG welded in place.

How do automotive and motorcycle engines servive:Q Many have a mix of brass, bronze, cast iron, aluminum, pot metal, plastic,rubber and steel, all subject to the same coolent, plus working temps at 240F. According to your level of fear they won't make it out of the driveway :p A good drain and flush on these systems is every 30k miles.

Earlyer today I did look up the heat condectivity of metals. Brass is far behind copper or aluminum.


Galvanized

 

Elfear

Diamond Member
May 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee
You have posted the electrolysis problem with disimilar metals more tha once. Link some cooling system info on that. Quite frankly it sounds as if the intended coolent is sulferic acid.

Distilled water and a high end coolent will have the proper PH and no chemical reaction should take place.

If money were not an object, i would go with an aluminum heater core and have the
coolent connections TIG welded in place.

How do automotive and motorcycle engines servive:Q Many have a mix of brass, bronze, cast iron, aluminum, pot metal, plastic,rubber and steel, all subject to the same coolent, plus working temps at 240F. According to your level of fear they won't make it out of the driveway :p A good drain and flush on these systems is every 30k miles.

Earlyer today I did look up the heat condectivity of metals. Brass is far behind copper or aluminum.


Galvanized

Most of the watercooling gurus over at Xtremesystems.org agree that aluminum is a bad metal to put in a system with copper/brass. I've seen some photos over there of corroded waterblocks from mixing metals and its not very pretty. I believe that's the reasoning behind Danger Den discontinuing their aluminum topped Maze4 blocks.

I know it's weird that aluminum works fine in an automotive application (I'm using an aluminum radiator and a regular heatercore in my car) and not in a computer watercooling environment but that's how it is. The only reason I can think of is the temperature difference between the two applications.
 

GalvanizedYankee

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Oct 27, 2003
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Just out of curiosity i'll take a look into it. Kind of bothers my car gear head brain.

Might have something to do with the electricly charged case enviroment.


Galvanized
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Originally posted by: Parkre
when using a brass or aluminum core and copper waterblocks, you get electrolysis, which will corrode the metals.


You have posted the electrolysis problem with disimilar metals more tha once. Link some cooling system info on that. Quite frankly it sounds as if the intended coolent is sulferic acid.

Distilled water and a high end coolent will have the proper PH and no chemical reaction should take place.

If money were not an object, i would go with an aluminum heater core and have the
coolent connections TIG welded in place.

How do automotive and motorcycle engines servive Many have a mix of brass, bronze, cast iron, aluminum, pot metal, plastic,rubber and steel, all subject to the same coolent, plus working temps at 240F. According to your level of fear they won't make it out of the driveway A good drain and flush on these systems is every 30k miles.

Earlyer today I did look up the heat condectivity of metals. Brass is far behind copper or aluminum.


Galvanized


 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
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You want the 77 bonneville with AC core. I have no idea what the dif might be, but the question is asked when you buy it.
The metal used for the tank is not bronz, it's brass. In plumbing applications where electrolysis (sp) will be an issue (connecting steel to copper pipe) a brass fitting is used and it prevents corrosion. As I understand it, electrolysis only occurs if the fluid is conductive, so distilled water should prevent any problems
 

mindwreck

Golden Member
May 25, 2003
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the only difference is that the outsides are brass. The internals and the fins are still copper. The main difference is the tube that comes out of the top plenum. Its harder to put fittings on a brass one than the copper versions.
Text

distilled water will still cause some corrosion. However it is much slower than normal tap water. coolant should still be added for extra safety.

edit:spelling
 

Parkre

Senior member
Jul 31, 2005
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I was wrong. It's not electrolysis, it Electrolytic corrosion.

This website I have found seems informative, but it's not really a scientific site. It does explain the electrolysis, electrolytic corrosion, and galvanic corrosion.

http://www.boatsurveyor.com/corrosion.htm

As for the autos with different metal, there some setups (special barbs that usually teflon coated) that stop (or at least greatly hinder) the corrosion process. Or so I have heard...
 

GalvanizedYankee

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2003
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OP, in the link posted just above you, it is stated that the only problem with brass tanks is it's harder to work with. Most likely meaning, to tap and solder. (there are tanks at both ends of the core) Tapping can be a little harder because brass has*tin*alloyed to copper. The *tin*
has a very low coefficiant of friction when being cut. A*very light* application of the proper cutting fluid on the tap will make it a snap to tap. This is the best i have ever used,get it,
Rapid Tap made by RELTON Corp. it provides gaul free drilling and tapping on most anything,
including,stelite,stainless, titanium, brass, copper,aluminum....about $4 for a 4oz can.
I use it often.
When you do tap, do it with the core vertical and the tank down as any chips will be easily removed. Using a Q-Tip. The residual Rapid Tap must be cleaned off before soldering.
As i indicated before, low temp silver solder would most likely be best for a brass to brass joint. Prep is the most important componet of a lasting/leak free joint.
In marine enviroments(sea water)and many large stationary diesel engine cooling systems,
a perishable plate is used to attract the the bad elements in their enviroments and withers away. This plate is made of magnesium, at least in my experiance it was.
Generally the guys at a NAPA near an industrial area are much more helpful and knowledgable than the local Pep-Boys ;) You just got to catch them when it is slow.

I'm glad water systems are comming on so strong in the market place because that fact is driving the providers of air HSF to provide better products.
Hope i was of some help.


Galvanized

EDIT: The scary thing about using silver solder is the heat necessary to work it.
I would stand the core near vertical in water leaving only the area being worked dry.
This will prevent the lead based solder where the tubes meet the top plate unmolested
by the necessary heat the silver demands.
 

Parkre

Senior member
Jul 31, 2005
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That first one was just something I found to prove i was calling the wrong thing.

http://www.dansdata.com/burning.htm

In this article (i haven't finished reading yet) has a aluminum block and copper radiator. The water was pitted and gouged....looks rough.

as for the automobile
this site was semi-informative. it's not the antifreeze (ethylene glycol), but additives which slow the process greatly

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/cm/cm59730.htm

I did find a chart that show the annode and cathodes (which it seems i closed that window) which included many metals and alloys


....maybe this should have been in highly technical for the ChemE s to explain a little more indepth....
 

GalvanizedYankee

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2003
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Having been a mechanic for many years the babcox link is on the money:thumbsup:

The RedLine water wetter that is linked at Dan's Data is top shelf stuff. Highly rated
and diservidly so. It's used in motorcycle racing engines by most everyone.

The next thing to come our way might be ceramic ball bearings. Tight fit, low noise,
low friction,retain lube extremly well, incredably long life, cost twice their steel equivilent.
I know that is way off topic but i can't help myself.

Good luck.


Galvanized(self healing surface plating of zinc, generally applied to steel :p )
 

GalvanizedYankee

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2003
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Thanks for the thank you and this link. Most body repair is done by grunts that could care less about the electrical system.
Thank you's should be a little more common on these boards as it shows a lack of selfcenteredness.

In the olden days many cars, particularly the British models were positive ground. The thought of the day was that this would stop any electrolysis. This made installing negative ground after market accesories a real pita.


Galvanized
 

Bigredhog

Junior Member
Sep 23, 2005
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Originally posted by: Parkre
when using a brass or aluminum core and copper waterblocks, you get electrolysis, which will corrode the metals.

As a Plumber with 25 years experience I can tell you we use Brass to prohibit electrolysis in Plumbing systems! As per code : When connecting disimiliar piping such as galvanized steel pipe and copper a Brass nipple at least 6 inches long shall be installed between the two to prohibit electrolysis.

 

Parkre

Senior member
Jul 31, 2005
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what does shins mean?

And I think he's got brass washer (doesn't look copper to me) and the nut should be stainless steel. The screw looks to be a plain steel screw (which on the chart is most reactive and would show the most corrosion).

I am comparing the screw with pictures I could find here. (a couple other sites seem to agree, but this was the most straightforward)
http://www.quickscrews.com/technical/tech1.htm
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
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Shens. Short for shenanigans.
My point being that if one screw is stainless and the other is plain steel the test is worthless. The screw with rust on it looks like plain old oxidation to me.
 

Parkre

Senior member
Jul 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: Greenman
Shens. Short for shenanigans.
My point being that if one screw is stainless and the other is plain steel the test is worthless. The screw with rust on it looks like plain old oxidation to me.

4 days is pretty quick for oxidation. Besides if you look at the chart, stainless and plain are at opposite ends. When I studied anodes and cathodes in college (chemistry was never my thing), I remember surface area matters too. Since there are two objects (the brass and stainless) and they are both cathodic, they will experience the least corrosion, if any.

Because of the this, the aluminum block setup from earlier corroded extremely fast, compared to the surface area of the radiator.;)
 

GalvanizedYankee

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Oct 27, 2003
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OP, "shens", iirc=shenanigans=being tricked or fooled.

The tought of your brass can (i called it a tank, but in the radiator repair trade it's can)

crossed my mind. If you tap it, most likely 3/8" pipe, be aware that pipe thread is tappered.

If Rapid Tap or it's equivilant is not used, there is a danger of the tap binding and getting stuck. Damaging the thread when it is removed. The can will generate some heat while being tapped, expanding, then cool, clamping down on the tap. This is why a good cutting agent is necessary. If tin were less common, it would be amoung the exotic metals.

RedLine is not a fly-by-night Co. They have been around awhile and they service the most demanding of clientail(sp). I would not doubt this test you linked.

Water wetter was developed because of the problems cleaning up ethalyne glychol(sp) from the race track surface. Causing very long periods of yellow or red flag conditions.

Water wetter helps the water cling to the surface being cooled, helps in reducing cavitation, has strong anti-corrosive properties and cleans up without leaving a slick surface behind. Cavitation would not be a concern in a WC PC but in automotive systems
a restriction is placed at the end of the return(thermostat) causing engine block coolent pressures of up to 40psi. This reduces cavitation. The radiator is at the psi indidated on the cap. This is true ;) Aside: GMCorp did testing on mineral build up in HD diesels many years ago. Mineral would build up at the hottest places in the cooling system, around the exhaust valve pockets and the top .75" of piston travel. They found .062" of lime and calcium would be equivilant to 4.5" of cast iron in rate of heat transfer.

Good luck on the project.

Galvanized
 

racinjimy

Member
Jun 3, 2001
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water wetter is OK but stinks (really it smells)

a lot of people (me included) pretty much use Zerex Racing Super Coolant

I had a Dtek WW and PolarfloTT (both aluminum) with ZRSC and had no corrsion after 6 months

It is true that distilled will prevent corrosion, if ions did not leach into it, which they do so distilled alone is NO protection in the long term.

This is Weapons thread with a detailed guide to swapping barbs on a 77 bone HC WITH AC
DUAL 120 HC