The real victims of the middle east conflict

[jjones]

To me it only looks like somebody's mother-in-law just pulled up in the driveway.

Hey, that's an idea. Maybe we could send in a battalion of mother-in-laws to knock some sense into those idiots; they'd restore order in no time.

 

[Miramonti]

You have no idea what it's like to live under the threat of terrorism. I just got off the phone with an Israeli buddy of mine, he tells me that no one is going to the stores, the streets are empty etc.

And have you lived under not just occupation, but occupiers that degrade and humiliate, and beat (and of course kill) the residents? Tears.

Israel could wipe out the palestinians but the reason why they haven't isn't because Sharon has any kind of morality or concern for them, but that it would increase his problems and not decrease them, just the same thing that his approach towards them has done already.

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< And have you lived under not just occupation, but occupiers that degrade and humiliate, and beat (and of course kill) the residents? Tears. >>



and this justifies terrorist activities?


also, the International community has not deemed this an Occupation. if it was so, they would have been forced to withdraw already.

What really pisses me off about you peaceniks is, you only want peace if it meets your terms. if peace works then go all out, prove it. Ghandi did. and i am an admirer of ghandis. are you?

 

[Miramonti]

And have you lived under not just occupation, but occupiers that degrade and humiliate, and beat (and of course kill) the residents? Tears.

and this justifies terrorist activities?

Forget the word terrorist to begin with. They have no large military and this is the only way they have to strike back. Does it justify a militant response? It screams for it.

also, the International community has not deemed this an Occupation. if it was so, they would have been forced to withdraw already.


Since 1967 the UN has called for Israel to pull out of their occupied land, to the borders previous of the '67 war. There have been resolutions for over 30 years calling it an illegal occupation. There are bouts interspersed where the military goes deeper, like now, which is also an occupation. Yes the international community has "deemed" it an occupation, what do you think this is all about?

 

[Red Dawn]

<< actually you read a lot into my post that i never put there. How many of the terrorist suicide bombers looked like anything other than a civilian when they went to kill. and yes, their intent was too kill >>

No doubt and nobody is arguing that point. That still doesn't mean that all Palestineans are terrorists



<< . Quit bashing the US. the US did not create the situation >>

Hmmm.. I fail to see where I said anything about the US in my post let alone critisize my Country. I'm highly critical of Sharon and believe that he, along Yasser Arafat , is an obstacle to a peaceful solution. I'm not convinced that Sharon would ever be open to negotiating an honest and fair settlement to this problem.



<< what a copout. do you think the British took ghandi's way when he started his movement for INDIA. are you really that dense. >>

Are you going to dig up Ghandi's Bones and Parade him down the main street of Jeruselem? What Ghandi would do and wouldn't do in this situation is irrelevent, we should be worrying what the PLO and the Knesset Leaders are going to do about it .



<< Ignorance must be bliss. >>

I've noticed that you've been rather blissful lately.The Israeli's live under the treat of terror, I never said they didn't. But they also don't have to worry about PLO tanks rolling into their neighborhood and fire fights breaking out in vacant lots where their kids played just the week before. I also hope you aren?t taking what I said to mean that I am supporting the infatada (SP) I was just commenting that the Palestinian Families are stuck right smack in the middle of this and are as much if not more the victims of these terrorists plus the reataliatory actions of the Israeli Government . Try to take into consideration what would happen to them if they did speak out against the Hamas and Hezbollah. They would be rounded up and assassinated just like the 11 Palestinians were earlier this week. The Palestinians have to fear the Israeli Army and the Terrorists while the Israeli's just have to fear the Terrorists which is nitemarish too.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

<< To me it only looks like somebody's mother-in-law just pulled up in the driveway. >>




Actually, that is pretty funny.

Now for serious stuff.

Yeah it sucks to be there. Know what? There is never going to be peace there because too many don't want it. It was pointed out earlier Israel could obliterate Palestine and may yet, depending on what kind of outside forces come into play. The Palestinian leadership wants conflict, because through it they remain in power, and as everyone ought to know, power makes the world go round.

Regarding peace though, there is one possibility.

1) Palestine increases bombings against Israel.
2) Israel retaliates further.
3) Palestine increases bombings against Israel
4) Israel retaliates further
(sound familiar?)
5) Arafat assassinated.
6) Palestine REALLY increases bombings against Israel.
7) Israel REALLY retaliates further.
8) Palestine openly attacks Israelis
9) Iraqi/Saudi/Iranians supply weapons (nasty ones) to Palestine
10) Palestine uses them. Thousands of Israelis killed.
11) Israel begins to decimate Palestine

Now the scenario becomes a little tricky



12) A minor Arab state attacks Israel
13) Israel responds with troops and the REAL army
14) A major Arab state joins in, then another
15) Israel overwhelmed
16) Israel uses nuclear weapons
17) Hussain uses chemical/nuclear/biological weapons in a sneak attack
18) Israel obliterated (ironically destroying what is left of Palestine in the process)
19) US attacks and destroys Iraq
20) Muslim fundamentalists attack US interests worldwide
21) Terrorism escalates
22) Nuclear/chemical/biological weapons used against Americans in America- Thousands to millions dead
23) Open war between supporting nations and US
24) Oil embargo- recession/depression sweeps US/World economy
25) Palestinian/Israeli type conflict between Arab states and US
26) Another terrorist strike of massive proportions against US
27) Marshal law declared.
28) US uses nuclear weapons against all opposition.
29) Arabian penisula decimated
30) Casualties- 400,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 dead depending
31) PEACE!!!!!


Be careful of what you wish for because you might get it. Now you may rightly say the above is a hypothetical, but I would be interested in how it would be impossible or even unlikely if something positive doesn't happen soon in the Middle east.

Sweet dreams

 

[Red Dawn]

<< What really pisses me off about you peaceniks is, you only want peace if it meets your terms >>

Our terms? And what's with this Peacenik Bullsh!t, I'm as violent as the next guy, I just don't have a reason to maim and destroy. Keep calling me a Peacenik though and I might decide that I have a good reason😉Your labeling those who don't agree with you as Peaceniks isn't making your viewpoint seem any more reasonable (it actually makes you sound like Texmaster which isn't a good thing).

I'll be totally honest with you. I care more about our interests as a country than I do about two groups of people that often resemble packs of mad dogs more than civilized peoples. The longer this situation lasts as it is the less chance of our waragainst Bin Laden and that Bitch from Bagdad will come to a successful conclusion. The fighting in Palestine is just what the Mullah ordered for Bin Laden's group . They don't really want Israel to pull out because as long as they are in the Palistrineans towns with the tanks the easier it will be to gain support from those who had turned their backs on them just 3 months ago.

 

[kassy]

Gandhi on the Palestine conflict - 1938

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the
French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they
[the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under
the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the
bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with
the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I
wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable
encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be
said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in "A Land of
Two Peoples"

http://www.cactus48.com/mandate.html

-----------------------------------------------------

The Irgun: Palestine 1931-48

[1931] Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military Organization) was founded in Jerusalem; led by Avraham Tehomi,
it advocated armed Jewish insurrection against British rule and war against Palestinian Arabs.

[1943] Menachem Begin became leader of the Israeli terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military
Organization), which was engaged in a campaign against the British in Palestine.

[1946] King David Hotel bombing (July 22): Irgun Zvai Leumi terrorists, commanded by Menachem Begin,
bombed the British office wing of Jerusalem's King David Hotel, killing 91 people, 17 of them Jews. Among
other Irgun terrorist actions was the bombing of the British Embassy in Rome.


http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/jay/jew/firgun1931.htm

-----------------------------------------------------

Menachem Begin (1913-1992)
Underground commander, parliamentarian and the sixth prime minister, Begin was born in Brest-Litovsk,

Poland, in 1913. A passionate Zionist from an early age, he joined the Betar youth movement at the age of
16 and became head of Betar Poland in 1938.
Begin led the Irgun Zvai Leumi (IZL) in its battles against the British in Palestine. Under Begin's
leadership the pace and the scope of IZL's challenges to British rule increased, and after World War II he
ordered many of IZL's operations, including the Acre prison breakout and the bombing of the British
administration's central offices at the King David Hotel.
As leader of the Herut party, Begin lost eight elections until he was elected prime minister in 1977. In
November 1977, six months after Begin became prime minister, president Anwar Sadat of Egypt came to
Jerusalem, which led to the Camp David Accords. Begin was awarded the 1978 Nobel Peace Prize for the
agreement.

Twice during Begin's tenure as prime minister, military actions were launched in response to Palestinian
terrorist acts against Israeli citizens: the 1978 Operation Litani and the 1982 Operation Peace for
Galilee.

----------------------------------------------------

A timeline without any apparent bias :

http://middleeast.reference.users.btopenworld.com/Chronology.html


----------------------------------------------------


After reading information from both sides and deciding that truth lies somewhere in the middle it appears
that the conception of Israel didnt occur over a Sunday cup of tea and a handshake.
According to the majority of sources (mostly Zionist sources) Irgun was viewed as a patriot group whose
only recourse was to use terrorism as a means to an end.

It seems that there is a fine line between terrorism and patriotism, it just depends on whose history
books you read and which side of the fence you decide to stand on.

I am sure if I were Palestinian I would see the situation in an entirely different light than if I were an
Israeli.

As an outsider searching through the bullsh*t that is spewed forth by both sides its hard to not
acknowledge the grievances on both sides.

My solution: Send them a video of my children solving their disputes in a supposedly adult-like way... These baffoons that they call leaders may learn a thing or two.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer :

If you don't like my opinion, too bad. I respect my own right to be wrong.

 

[Russ]

Just looks like a typical American family awaiting the arrival of the UPS man with their latest hot deal. Note the look of anticipation on the Dad's face, while the women folk are rolling their eyes.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It seems that there is a fine line between terrorism and patriotism, it just depends on whose history
books you read and which side of the fence you decide to stand on.


Remember this lesson. If there is any certainty in history, this is it. The winners write history and the losers are always the bad guys. Sometimes, more than one perspective survives, but rarely is known or understood by the masses.

 

[ThePresence]

<<

<< Ignorance must be bliss. >>

I've noticed that you've been rather blissful lately.The Israeli's live under the treat of terror, I never said they didn't. But they also don't have to worry about PLO tanks rolling into their neighborhood and fire fights breaking out in vacant lots where their kids played just the week before. I also hope you aren?t taking what I said to mean that I am supporting the infatada (SP) I was just commenting that the Palestinian Families are stuck right smack in the middle of this and are as much if not more the victims of these terrorists plus the reataliatory actions of the Israeli Government . Try to take into consideration what would happen to them if they did speak out against the Hamas and Hezbollah. They would be rounded up and assassinated just like the 11 Palestinians were earlier this week. The Palestinians have to fear the Israeli Army and the Terrorists while the Israeli's just have to fear the Terrorists which is nitemarish too. >>



Sure they have to worry about firefights breaking out in playgrounds. As I'm sure you know, there have been plenty of suicide shooting attacks, where terrorists just open up with AK's on city streets. And why is the fear of bombs any less than the fear of tanks? On the contrary, the innocent Palestinians know that the Israeli tanks are not gunning for them, although the fear is there, it's not the same as knowing that you are targeted - which the suicide bombers are doing to the Israeli civillians.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Regarding peace though, there is one possibility.

You forgot the true prelude to Armageddon . . . Suzuki merges with Kawasaki . . .

I don't understand this "they intentionally kill civilians vs they kill civilians but not by intent" argument.

We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end the war . . . the civilian death toll was several orders of magnitude greater than the Japanese military.

We bombed Hanoi using much greater ordinance than the Allies used on Dresden.

Dresden appears to have been a reasonable military target; granted the 600,000 civilian population might disagree. Hanoi by our leader's words (Nixon) was an attempt to intimidate by "hitting them where they live". And well Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a bone too big to chew right now. The point is rules of war are BS. The rules are made up by the combatants and can change on a whim. If it was truly such an honorable enterprise; defenders of the status quo and collateral damage wouldn't trot out "war is dirty" every time an unconscionable act is commited by their side.

To their credit the Israelis have shown some restraint in the past and arguably the present. But suicide bombers have demonstrated nothing but blatant disregard for life: Israeli, Jew, Arab, and anyone else unfortunate enough to be within reach of their shrapnel.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Interesting political cartoon, Czar.

thnx

 

[ThePresence]

<<
After reading information from both sides and deciding that truth lies somewhere in the middle it appears
that the conception of Israel didnt occur over a Sunday cup of tea and a handshake.
According to the majority of sources (mostly Zionist sources) Irgun was viewed as a patriot group whose
only recourse was to use terrorism as a means to an end.

It seems that there is a fine line between terrorism and patriotism, it just depends on whose history
books you read and which side of the fence you decide to stand on.

I am sure if I were Palestinian I would see the situation in an entirely different light than if I were an
Israeli.

As an outsider searching through the bullsh*t that is spewed forth by both sides its hard to not
acknowledge the grievances on both sides.

My solution: Send them a video of my children solving their disputes in a supposedly adult-like way... These baffoons that they call leaders may learn a thing or two.
>>



The difference is, The Irgun, Etzel, Stern gang and the rest, were NOT targeting civillians. Neither were the early US militias that fought the Brits. They were fighting an army and targeting the military. As a matter of fact, Before they bombed the King David Hotel, they placed a phone call warning the British to get out. The British officer who answered the phone replied that "we dont take orders from Jews". Well, who is to blame there? (The British denied this phone call untill the early '70's when they admitted it in Parliament. It seems that the gentleman and officer who took the phone call decided to leave the hotel before it blew up, but did not pass the message along...)

 

[kassy]

<< The difference is, The Irgun, Etzel, Stern gang and the rest, were NOT targeting civillians. Neither were the early US militias that fought the Brits. They were fighting an army and targeting the military. As a matter of fact, Before they bombed the King David Hotel, they placed a phone call warning the British to get out. The British officer who answered the phone replied that "we dont take orders from Jews". Well, who is to blame there? (The British denied this phone call untill the early '70's when they admitted it in Parliament. It seems that the gentleman and officer who took the phone call decided to leave the hotel before it blew up, but did not pass the message along...) >>



Again - it depends on which history books you read. I found several references depicting the event as you do, and others which told a different story.
There were also several references to this group being responsible for the deaths of innocent people aside from the Hotel David incident.

As for who is to blame, one could argue that a phone call wouldn't have been necessary if the group wasn't planning to bomb the hotel, thus ultimately they are responsible.

The entire situation reminds me of a dog trying to catch its tail.

Facts are hard to come by from either side.

 

[Piano Man]

Nice Czar.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< On the contrary, the innocent Palestinians know that the Israeli tanks are not gunning for them, although the fear is there, it's not the same as knowing that you are targeted - which the suicide bombers are doing to the Israeli civillians. >>

You know I never meant to suggest that the Israeli's weren't living in fear either, just that the Palistineans are as much victims as the Israeli's are. To label the Palestineans as a group terrorists is wrong and simple minded but some here can't seem to see the difference.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

The difference is, The Irgun, Etzel, Stern gang and the rest, were NOT targeting civillians.
I hope you are not trying to imply that if the 9/11 hijackers had called the Pentagon and said evacuate the building then their act of aggression would have been a reasonable act of war?!

 

[ThePresence]

<< As for who is to blame, one could argue that a phone call wouldn't have been necessary if the group wasn't planning to bomb the hotel, thus ultimately they are responsible. >>



They meant to bomb an empty building, because it was the British Army's Jerusalem command center. I can see your argument, but all the same, if they had heeded the warning...........

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Well, BBD--- Perhaps after Armageddon, something wonderful will happen. From the ashes, perhaps a better motorcycle will arise. Maybe call it the Phoenix.

As far as the rules of war go, there never were any for any length of time, except one. Win. Nagasaki and Hiroshima happened because it could. It saved uncounted American soldiers that would have died in the inevitable invasion. I agree with you in that a dead civilian is a dead civilian. But leaders of a nation will always prefer to have the other country suffer instead. If that means "collateral damage" so be it.

If it were not so tragic I would be amused at the lack of understanding of war. I hear words that make war "right" in a moral sense. War is not moral. It is not immoral. It is AMORAL. If a car strikes and kills a child, is the car immoral? War is an EVENT. The CAUSE of war may be just, but when it comes down to it, it war is man made destruction and death. It serves it's purpose. This is not an endorsement of war, but as pragmatic and unemotional analysis of it as I can make. If you understand a thing, it makes it easier to deal with, and perhaps avert.

 

[kassy]

ThePresence - I don't disagree with your point, I just took it a step further.
I am merely pointing out that its difficult to find facts regarding the entire Palestinian-Israeli conflict, so if your purpose was to sway me from a Pro-Palestinian stance you are pissing up the wrong tree trunk. I am neither Pro-Palestinian or Pro-Israeli just anti-idiot leadership, something which neither side has lacked during the history of conflict.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

<< ThePresence - I don't disagree with your point, I just took it a step further. I am merely pointing out that its difficult to find facts regarding the entire Palestinian-Israeli conflict, so if your purpose was to sway me from a Pro-Palestinian stance you are pissing up the wrong tree trunk. I am neither Pro-Palestinian or Pro-Israeli just anti-idiot leadership, something which neither side has lacked during the history of conflict. >>




Objectivity is priceless. 🙂

Not that you need my approval, but I am glad to see that you watch out for bias, and are thinking critically.

 

[Texmaster]

<< PlatinumGold,
Exactly, the Palestinians have only one way of using force against the Israelis and that is this "terrorism", if they had an army they would most likely use it, but they dont so we are comparing the Israelis way of using force to the Palestinian way of using force. >>



Dont get caught in that trap Czar. Comparing the Actions Israelies have taken against what Palestinians have taken isn't even close to being the same.

The if they did or if they had arguement wont work. Deal with what they have done.

They use their own people to blow up civilians and they concentrate as many as possible in one blast. There is nothing the Israelies have done or are doing that even comes close.

If the Israelies were doing the equivant they would be leveling malls and concentrations of civilians with their tanks not surrounding Palestinian militants shooting at them and going after Arafat, the man repsonsible for their funding.

It literally blows me away how one side who takes 2 weeks off from ANY reltaliation while the other continually targets civilians and then people actually question why the terrorists get a strong reaction.

And the only links showing any Israeli soldiers diectly targeting civilians have come from Palestinian newspapers. Thats like asking the Pope if he believes in God.

Its the INTENT to kill civilians. One side is CLEARLY guilty of it, the other side its small occcurances involving a gunfight or terrorists nearby firing back.

The INTENT is what kills me about Palestinian supporters. No one can deny Palestinians have intentionally targeted Civilians.

So far not one article has a valid source linking to ANY Israeli soldiers SPECIFICALLY targeting civilians. Not a single one. And I said VALID. Quoting a Palestinian newspaper is NOT valid.

 

[Texmaster]

edit

 

[PlatinumGold]

Kassy
nice quote from Ghandi. He still stood for non violence vs terrorism. as to the overwhelming odds part of it. mb then now, w/ the almost unified arab countries standing against isreal, i'd say the odds are against isreal



<< You know I never meant to suggest that the Israeli's weren't living in fear either, just that the Palistineans are as much victims as the Israeli's are. To label the Palestineans as a group terrorists is wrong and simple minded but some here can't seem to see the difference. >>


red dawn, you make my point for me. I label all palestinians terrorists because the palestinian extremest place them in that situation. i don't personally believe all palestinians are terrorists. that would just be stupid, but if i were the Government of Isreal I would have a hard time distinguishing between Palestinian civilians and Palestinian Terrorist. that's onus is on the Terrorists. they choose to hide themselves in the guise of civilians thereby putting THEIR OWN PEOPLE IN DANGER. who's fault is that??