The real lesson from Boston

[2timer]

You mean someone who you didn't know was injured. Had just killed four people and injured almost 200 and had just been in a gun fight where they're throwing grenades and another pressure cooker bomb which injured 15 police officers the night before.

Fuck yeah, everyone just go on and if you get carjacked, sucks to be you and we won't even know if he left the area b/c everyone is driving around.

Well we sure as hell better find a compromise between total lockdown and restricting nothing. Sad to say, these types of attacks will become more common. In Pakistan, car bombs go off that kill 20 people and injured hundreds. So this was nothing compared to that.

My point is this. If we assume that every terrorist has a massive cache of explosives at his disposal and that he is going to use them imminently on a gathering of people, then the result will be extreme lockdowns by the authorities. Hell, in 3rd world countries people lock themselves in their houses voluntarily. It just seems so abnormal here because this is AMURICAH

The facts of the situation are that after the authorities had identified the suspects, that's when the shootouts began. Not because they were *planning* an attack, but because they were cornered. That's how we ought to distinguish between the crime time lines .

You might could even argue that had the college cop not attempted to follow them, but tailed at a maximum distance and waited for backup, he might still be alive.

 

[IGBT]

liberal politically correct america fails to understand the power of faith and focused determination. War is not a single fight or battle.

 

[Sulaco]

My point is this. If we assume that every terrorist has a massive cache of explosives at his disposal and that he is going to use them imminently on a gathering of people, then the result will be extreme lockdowns by the authorities.

It was not an assumption, it was TRUE....they had just USED them hours prior on Police during the first shoot-out! The older suspect had been killed with explosives strapped to his body.

There is no debate about this; they didn't "assume he was a terrorist so he might have explosives", the explosives were THERE, were USED, and an unknown amount still remained in the vehicle and with the fleeing suspect.

 

[Bowfinger]

[ ... ]
You might could even argue that had the college cop not attempted to follow them, but tailed at a maximum distance and waited for backup, he might still be alive.

Where did you get that story? Everything I heard said the MIT officer was ambushed in his car, and may not have even seen them first. Do you have a link to something different?

Also, as Sulaco points out and as I mentioned earlier, there was no supposition about "more bombs" by the time they instituted the lock down. It was known fact.

 

[Svnla]

Travel internationally by airline before and after 9/11 are night and day. Security and cost are up tremendously due to terrorist acts.

 

[2timer]

Where did you get that story? Everything I heard said the MIT officer was ambushed in his car, and may not have even seen them first. Do you have a link to something different?

Also, as Sulaco points out and as I mentioned earlier, there was no supposition about "more bombs" by the time they instituted the lock down. It was known fact.

Bah, I read it off a Google News link, offhand, didn't save the link. But it appears I was wrong, the MIT officer was ambushed, according to other sources.

You and Sulaco are incorrect about the 2nd point. If law enforcement were to assume that all terrorist suspects posed an *imminent* threat to the public, ie 24 hrs, then we would live in a lockdown state.

My point is the bombers had more bombs, but there was NO EVIDENCE that they had another attack planned. The shelter down was a little overboard, as others mentioned.

 

[woolfe9998]

Wouldn't that make it even worse? Hundreds of cops ARE looking for him and one civilian accidentally finds him after the lockdown was lifted. That just shows that the police, despite having locked down the entire area and bringing in military hardware failed. A larger point is that the citizens are actually an asset and not a hindrance in a situation like this. Would you rather 100 sets of eyes looking or half a million?

If your going to say shit like "oh but they were in danger", well then the terrorists goal was achieved.

The guy was in her boat for crying out loud. What exactly is your point here? That they had failed to search that one boat before the owner saw blood there?

No one would ever have been found had LE not solicited tons of photos and videos. Moreover, you haven't clue what was happening on the ground there.

Never mind, the article you linked is an uncautious rant that you instantly credited because it's in line with something you want to believe. Just believe whatever you want. It's what everyone else does anyway.

 

[Sulaco]

My point is the bombers had more bombs, but there was NO EVIDENCE that they had another attack planned. The shelter down was a little overboard, as others mentioned.

So what?

Before LE had any names or solid leads (that we know of) to go with the photos, the suspects carjacked a civilian and ambushed and murdered a cop, sitting in his car, in cold blood. That was THEIR initiative.


Whether they had another planned attack is moot and irrelevant. They were on the loose, had already attacked and killed police, and were STILL ARMED WITH GUNS AND EXPLOSIVES, running around inside suburban Boston.
That is why the "shelter in place" order was in effect, not because there was another planned, coordinated bombing in the works.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here...

As an aside, can you imagine the (understandable) backlash if the police had just said , "Oh, business as usual. Do everything normally...this guy's on the loose, but we'll keep looking..." and he decided to chuck one of these bombs at a passing school bus? Or a bus stop? People would understandably have the Police's nuts on a pike. You just don't fuck around in this kind of situation.

 

[monovillage]

I agree in many ways. I opposed and still oppose the Patriot Act, I oppose the whole idea of extreme airline security and the TSA. The terrorists win when they make this country change our laws and our freedom on the miniscule chance there's going to be a terrorist attack.

 

[Venix]

Frankly, I would give the cops a pass on what happened after they found out the guy was in the boat. I still find a lot of shit they did wrong but hey, its heat of the moment type of stuff so alone I would give them a pass. Its all the stuff that led up to that even that is truly fucked up.

Do you really think that the following video is ok when the police are not in hot pursuit of a suspect (as in they had no good info that he was in that house)?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2be_1366536241

It looks possible that the house was targeted, as I don't see anything happening to any of the other houses on the block. I also don't have the sound on, so maybe something was said that gives some more context.

This is also the only video I've seen of the police pulling the occupants of a home out at gunpoint. I would have expected more videos and reports if it were widespread. The only other videos I've seen are of the police walking through yards, which is generally permissible even when investigating minor crimes.

Of course, if they didn't have a warrant or exigent circumstances (something more substantial than "the bomber is somewhere in this 5 mile radius"), then it's an outrageous civil rights violation. And if it did happen to every house in Watertown and didn't enrage the populace, I'm not sure what to say.

 

[blankslate]

So the badguy couldn't have broken into the house instead of the boat and taken a hostage? You are being retarded, the people didn't leave the area they just stayed inside so the potential hostages are all still there.

Since the initial shooting there was blood, we don't know how much there was but maybe it was enough to indicate that the suspect was bleeding from a wound that didn't stop leaking.

If that was the case (which is likely since he left a blood trail getting into the boat) then the shelter in place order and to not answer the door for anyone except a uniform was good because the act of breaking in would either be to much or draw attention the suspect didn't want (if he used a gun).

If more people were wandering about then it would've given the suspect many more chances to grab a hostage (or two). You're acting like an insipid idiot for ignoring how much continuous bleeding that doesn't stop weakens a person.

Evidently you don't mind the government violating our rights due to terrorism but I do. Your way and the terrorists win every single time just like they won, and won BIG, this time........ all with some fucking fireworks and a pressure cooker. How bout that?

WTF? You think I welcomed the data mining of communications that started early this century or the fact that they have a safety show with the TSA instead of getting training from the experts who oversea airport security in Israel on how to really spot shady people?

Furthermore those are different situations than having a suspect armed and at large in a neighborhood. I guess you'd just rather the police went home and let the suspect wander off at will. Such utter stupidity. How did they win? One was killed and the other captured a few days later. Hell if the police acted the way you wanted he probably would be free right now.

Yet the writer is an idiot....

Yeah he is and you're playing the role of a little sycophant eating up his slop.

 

[OverVolt]

Ehh after seeing the pictures of the victims that bombing was horrible. I'm not sure how they can live with themselves

 

[Genx87]

I had to laugh at the beginning of the article.

Reminds me of this.

 

[bshole]

My point is the bombers had more bombs, but there was NO EVIDENCE that they had another attack planned.

The bombers had more bombs but those bombs are not evidence they had another attack planned? What were the bombs for? A fireworks display? What kind of planning is necessary? Just put the thing in a backpack, walk to the nearest crowded area, drop it off and walk away. It ain't rocket science.

 

[waggy]

In part i agree with the OP.

I am suprised at how easy it was to impart a form of martial law and how willing people were to do it. They were willing to allow the police/military to search the house etc.

They shut down the city at a cost of millions? billion? the cost may never be known.


No i am not saying civies should be out looking for him. That's silly. personally i would be in the basement with a weapon.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

liberal politically correct america fails to understand the power of faith and focused determination. War is not a single fight or battle.

I hope we win the coming war with Chechnya....lmao

Wake up, people.

 

[Muse]

I understand where this guy's coming from but he's way over the top with it. The fact of the matter is the terrorists would likely have perpetrated more mayhem had not the police/FBI/etc. dragnet smoked them out. That was chiefly due to a the painstaking examination of a lot of video and a tip from one of the bombs' victims, who scribbled a note saying a guy had looked him in the eye as he dropped a backpack on the ground and walked away a few seconds before bomb's explosion.

Once the pictures of the suspects were finally released [and for some reason(s) the cops decided not to release their best images], the terrorists realized their cover was blown and they wigged out.

 

[Muse]

The bombers had more bombs but those bombs are not evidence they had another attack planned? What were the bombs for? A fireworks display? What kind of planning is necessary? Just put the thing in a backpack, walk to the nearest crowded area, drop it off and walk away. It ain't rocket science.

I've not seen or heard any discussion of how the bombs were detonated. The bombers were using cell phones, I suppose they were possibly the detonation source. I think some of their bombs had lightable fuses, maybe some were designed to explode on impact. Maybe some were designed to explode after a few seconds by virtue of a count down timer.

 

[soulcougher73]

I'd be happy to stay in my home instead of going to work. Need more faux martial law here

 

[Darkman]

When post-Communist Russia tells you something ... you better listen to them and take it serious...

 

[Darwin333]

You mean someone who you didn't know was injured. Had just killed four people and injured almost 200 and had just been in a gun fight where they're throwing grenades and another pressure cooker bomb which injured 15 police officers the night before.

Fuck yeah, everyone just go on and if you get carjacked, sucks to be you and we won't even know if he left the area b/c everyone is driving around.

So we just let terrorists know that all it takes to shut down half the major cities in the countries is a couple of idiots and shit they can purchase exclusively at walmart?

You'll forgive me if I refuse to allow terrorists to actually achieve their goal of terrorizing me. You are free to be as scared as you wish.

 

[Darwin333]

I understand where this guy's coming from but he's way over the top with it. The fact of the matter is the terrorists would likely have perpetrated more mayhem had not the police/FBI/etc. dragnet smoked them out.

Instead they got more than they ever dreamed. They got the authorities to cause the mayhem for them shitting on the constitution, specifically the 4th amendment, in the process. Like I have implied this entire thread, terrorists who want to harm the US are smiling their asses off all across the world after watching this fiasco. This absurdly easy to pull off attack worked outstandingly well at terrorizing an entire city to the point of complete lockdown and quasi martial law complete with machine gun (they look like machine guns at least) toting government agents ripping people from their homes at gunpoint and forcibly searching the home without cause (like "hot pursuit") or warrant.

 

[Darwin333]

Since the initial shooting there was blood, we don't know how much there was but maybe it was enough to indicate that the suspect was bleeding from a wound that didn't stop leaking.

If that was the case (which is likely since he left a blood trail getting into the boat) then the shelter in place order and to not answer the door for anyone except a uniform was good because the act of breaking in would either be to much or draw attention the suspect didn't want (if he used a gun).

WTF does that have to do with what I posted?

If more people were wandering about then it would've given the suspect many more chances to grab a hostage (or two). You're acting like an insipid idiot for ignoring how much continuous bleeding that doesn't stop weakens a person.

So wait, now the lockdown order was at least partially because he was wounded or is that just pure hindsight bullshit? If they didn't know that he was wounded AND the exact extent of said wound, and even then, my point is still valid. The hostages were still there. Its not like they fucking vanished or clicked their heels and went to Oz, the bad guy knew exactly where they were...

WTF? You think I welcomed the data mining of communications that started early this century or the fact that they have a safety show with the TSA instead of getting training from the experts who oversea airport security in Israel on how to really spot shady people?

Hell if I know and since its not really in the scope of this discussion I frankly don't care.

Furthermore those are different situations than having a suspect armed and at large in a neighborhood. I guess you'd just rather the police went home and let the suspect wander off at will. Such utter stupidity. How did they win? One was killed and the other captured a few days later. Hell if the police acted the way you wanted he probably would be free right now.

How did they win??? Ok, see they call this type of attack "terrorism", pay close attention to that word. See the first half and how it says "terror" that is because that is the ultimate goal of said attacks, to cause terror. Exactly how much better would you like to prove that the city of Boston was absolutely terrified than implementing a quasi-martial law, issuing shelter in place orders and violating peoples rights? All perpetrated by two idiots with materials that can be purchased from one brick and mortar store.

And for the record, I want the police to do their job to the best of their legal abilities and allow everyone else to go on about their lives in the way that said people best see fit. Obviously a ridiculous and absurd desire in your mind. If they are actually in pursuit of the badguy or have intel that he is in a specific place I have no issues with them securing the area to get the badguy. Shutting down a major fucking city is beyond absurd.

 

[Darwin333]

So what?

Before LE had any names or solid leads (that we know of) to go with the photos, the suspects carjacked a civilian and ambushed and murdered a cop, sitting in his car, in cold blood. That was THEIR initiative.


Whether they had another planned attack is moot and irrelevant. They were on the loose, had already attacked and killed police, and were STILL ARMED WITH GUNS AND EXPLOSIVES, running around inside suburban Boston.
That is why the "shelter in place" order was in effect, not because there was another planned, coordinated bombing in the works.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here...

As an aside, can you imagine the (understandable) backlash if the police had just said , "Oh, business as usual. Do everything normally...this guy's on the loose, but we'll keep looking..." and he decided to chuck one of these bombs at a passing school bus? Or a bus stop? People would understandably have the Police's nuts on a pike. You just don't fuck around in this kind of situation.

How about just telling the people the truth about the situation and advising them, but not requiring nor implying that it is required, to avoid traveling if you can? Give people the information about the situation and allow them to make up their own minds, I know its one of those way out there ideas but I kinda like it.

 

[Capt Caveman]

So we just let terrorists know that all it takes to shut down half the major cities in the countries is a couple of idiots and shit they can purchase exclusively at walmart?

You'll forgive me if I refuse to allow terrorists to actually achieve their goal of terrorizing me. You are free to be as scared as you wish.

LOL. So, you want to let terrorists know that they can just carjack someone and drive away b/c we don't care if people are out and about driving their vehicles. And if you lived in the Watertown, I'm sure you'd feel perfectly safe letting your kids play in the street with you sitting on your porch with rifle in hand. And if the suspect ended up flying down the street at 60mph running them over, you wouldn't have a grudge against the police/authorities that were chasing him.

Oh, since I don't live in Watertown, I broke the order at 4:30pm. Drove past a dozen police vehicles on my way to my gf's.

Do you really think the terrorist care if a city is locked down when the police are hunting them? Sorry, they could careless how we feel but it sure makes it harder for them to get around without being caught. I'm sure as they're hiding, they're thinking, yeah, we have them locked down for a day. Too funny.