The problem with communism...

[Steeplerot]

Main problem in this thread is 2 things.

A lot of people here have no clue about Communism.

You guys keep speaking of lazy people in a communist society. Yet Communist societies have no unemployment.
(Unemployment is a optional element of a modern capitalist society to naturally drive down wages to benefit the capitalist class.)


You guys really should read some, you have quite a bit wrong, and it is odd, as none of what you are saying is common sense for a functional society to work. In other words you have been fed BS.



In the Soviet Constitution, Article Twelve states:

In the U.S.S.R. work is a duty and a matter of honor for every able-bodied citizen, in accordance with the principle: "He who does not work, neither shall he eat."

The biggest fallacy I see (and the foundation of the conservative movement nowadays) is that Socialist societies are repressive to growth because everyone is equal. The elephant in the center of the room everyone has ignored about reality is that no Marxist-Leninist society has EVER been anything near what Marx proposed.

EVERY Communist "test run" tried since the day Marx penned the last words in the Manifesto has included:
A. A Cash-based scaled and tiered wage economy depending on ones type of labor
B. Bosses/Ruling classes who dictate their own needs over workers.
C. Profiteering by the State on the workers backs.

In other words: a State Capitalist society with a bit of capitalist welfare state tacked on in some cases.


Another misconception:

A lot of: "It is just human nature! <insert excuse here>" This is a excuse for intellectual laziness, or to dismiss the subject without further insight. (or plain manipulation by the ruling classes of society to keep themselves in power by dividing and conquering the people against one another so they can stay happy manipulated consumers) The "human nature" bit is a myth as all individuals have their own reasonings and situations they have built upon to come to where they are. If one thing about the human race is a immutable fact and got us to where we are is that humans work together. Not the opposite. (which is known as a disorder in modern society - a sociopath)

Ahh, but what about good old Randian greed? Problem with this is that self preservation comes out of necessity or need. How far one is willing to go for a "want" is a case by case basis. Most "wants" nowadays are manipulations by the capitalists through freudian mindfucking. (advertising based off of ones inner need for validation or acceptance.) -which is optional to a society. Public Relations and advertising firms do this for a living out in the open manipulating people into irrational wants which benefit the capitalist class by lowering the chance of overproduction of a commodity thus loss of profitability.)

We live in a world nowadays with technology where there is no excuse for hunger or want. Capitalism will kill us all one day if we do not "evolve" beyond where the ruling classes manipulate us to keep their power through outdated mindsets such as shown in this thread.

 

[Bowfinger]

Communism is really an impossibility, at least it is if you want to still have any semblance of freedom. Human nature dictates that when people are all treated exactly the same for different work, they will act differently. Some will simply stop working and let the more principled get the work done for them, thus becoming leeches on the system. Others will become fed up with managing the more complex parts of the system for the same reward, and will skew it in their favor.

Simply put, you can't get people to do work without an incentive. If you say, "if your work gets done by someone, you get fed and clothed," then some people will just get others to do it for them. Or they'll cheat the system, make it look like they did the work, and get paid despite the smaller amount of overall work that has been completed.

Communism cannot work without strict monitoring of workers, accountability for those on top, and a completely brainwashed populace that is made to be happy with what they have (because, honestly, few people are). ...

I hope you realize that if you replace "communism" with "capitalism" in the paragraphs above, your comments will be equally accurate. Especially in typical corporate environments where most employees' compensation is only loosely tied to their performance, most productivity comes only from those who are personally motivated or who have exceptionally effective management. The rest of the workforce tend to slack as much as they can.

That's not to suggest communism as a whole works anywhere nearly as well as capitalism. It doesn't, at least not in today's world with today's people. I think TheRedUnderURBed offers good insight into some of its major flaws. It's just that capitalism works exceptionally well in small, entrepreneurial endeavors where the people are directly involved in the success of the business. This becomes more and more diluted as the company grows. It is badly aggravated as companies get greedy and stop sharing their success with their workers.

One of America's biggest problems in my view is we now have too many bloated, greedy conglomerates that are woefully inefficient. They blunder along anyway -- for a while -- through the sheer force of inertia and the fact that their pockets are so deep they can easily buy out small and efficient competitors. One of the many reasons we need strong anti-trust enforcement, keeping American business as a whole more healthy.

 

[Bowfinger]

Wow... such an angry little child.

Pooooooor little moonbeam.... shhhhhhh

It's ok, little child

Have you ever contributed anything of value to P&N? Ever? I'm just asking because I've never seen you post anything more interesting or insightful than what a six year old with a link to RNC.org could produce.

 

[Bowfinger]

True. I probably posted this in too much zeal ...

Indeed you did, and it makes you look like an idiot that hasn't the foggiest clue what "communism" is. If you don't want to look like such a buffoon you might want to change your Subject to something at least slightly accurate.

Just sayin'.

 

[Moonbeam]

It always cracks me up, Mr. Hates Himself Man, when I tell folk they hate themselves and they turn right around and try to turn that hate on me. Hehehehehehehe Please oh please don't throw me in the brier patch. Anything but making me hate myself. We're going to cut your hand off Moonbeam, when I lost my arm ages ago. Hehehehehehe! You buggas is really dumb.

 

[PJABBER]

It always cracks me up, Mr. Hates Himself Man, when I tell folk they hate themselves and they turn right around and try to turn that hate on me. Hehehehehehehe Please oh please don't throw me in the brier patch. Anything but making me hate myself. We're going to cut your hand off Moonbeam, when I lost my arm ages ago. Hehehehehehe! You buggas is really dumb.

Honestly, Moonie, when I read your posts I think you are Rickrolling us.

 

[Bowfinger]

Honestly, Moonie, when I read your posts I think you are Rickrolling us.

Small world.

 

[PJABBER]

Small world.

Hehehe. Not sayin' I am and not sayin' I ain't.

The Wall o' Text, she hold many mysteries.

 

[PeshakJang]

Have you ever contributed anything of value to P&N? Ever? I'm just asking because I've never seen you post anything more interesting or insightful than what a six year old with a link to RNC.org could produce.

You probably don't notice because most of the time, I completely destroy the opposing argument (usually techs, Craig), and they stop responding, thus the thread drifts into the night. ()

 

[Steeplerot]

You probably don't notice because most of the time, I completely destroy the opposing argument (usually techs, Craig), and they stop responding, thus the thread drifts into the night. ()

Such arrogance, problem is you guys live in a echo chamber of RW bs, thing is people tend to have fun with arguing with fundamentalists mindsets for awhile, then the pointlessness of talking to a wall gets boring. People move on.

 

[PeshakJang]

thing is people tend to have fun with arguing with fundamentalists mindsets for awhile, then the pointlessness of talking to a wall gets boring.

Do they have irony in a communist society?

 

[Steeplerot]

Do they have irony in a communist society?

Of course, Socialist of all stripes are probably the most cynical group of them all (notice the left never gets along with itself) but you sir have cornered the market on arrogant douchebaggery. Talking points and echo chamber bumper sticker logic from talk radio fantasyworlds will not get you far except for the cheap thrill of a lame troll. Troll on Comrade. Troll on. Keep thinking those tired right-wing lines are new to anyone and not been plonked a million times written by the much more "professional" RW shills that populate this board.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

I hope you realize that if you replace "communism" with "capitalism" in the paragraphs above, your comments will be equally accurate. Especially in typical corporate environments where most employees' compensation is only loosely tied to their performance, most productivity comes only from those who are personally motivated or who have exceptionally effective management. The rest of the workforce tend to slack as much as they can.

That's not to suggest communism as a whole works anywhere nearly as well as capitalism. It doesn't, at least not in today's world with today's people. I think TheRedUnderURBed offers good insight into some of its major flaws. It's just that capitalism works exceptionally well in small, entrepreneurial endeavors where the people are directly involved in the success of the business. This becomes more and more diluted as the company grows. It is badly aggravated as companies get greedy and stop sharing their success with their workers.

One of America's biggest problems in my view is we now have too many bloated, greedy conglomerates that are woefully inefficient. They blunder along anyway -- for a while -- through the sheer force of inertia and the fact that their pockets are so deep they can easily buy out small and efficient competitors. One of the many reasons we need strong anti-trust enforcement, keeping American business as a whole more healthy.

I'm not saying capitalism is the perfect system - it isn't. And, as you said, communism can work very well in small groups; a family, for example, may practice communism. Families share everything, they eat the same food, and each member is expected to work their fair share at the risk of being ostracized or cut off.

A totally free market is not good for anyone but those on top. We tried that in the industrial revolution. What we got is the guys likes Rockefeller on top with the steel workers on the bottom.


The perfect system in today's world is a blend of regulated capitalism with some socialist programs. However, the government also needs to be small enough to stay efficient. What I think should happen is that the Federal government should still have supremacy over the states, but most of the tax revenue, except what is necessary for the defense budget and some discretionary spending, should go to the individual states. The state governments are smaller and more efficient, and can thus maintain the more run-of-the-mill spending activities (reasonable entitlements, education) more effectively. But with the Federal government able to preside over them, they can be checked and prevented from becoming too large.

The nation at large should still fall under the foundation of a Constitution, and the responsibility to enforce this document should fall to the Federal government and its Justice department.

At the same time, any popular vote held by the people should trump any other entity, federal and state government alike. Thus, the federal government presides over the state government presides over the people, but the people can ultimately out-vote either of them.

 

[JS80]

i know what you mean.

I wonder if communism could work.. We've, of course, never seen the means of production controlled by the workers; every communist revolution is always, perpetually, stuck in the 'transition phase'.

communism was way ahead of it's time and thus usurped by some very bad people.

lol

 

[Moonbeam]

You probably don't notice because most of the time, I completely destroy the opposing argument (usually techs, Craig), and they stop responding, thus the thread drifts into the night. ()

Hehehehehehehehe

Poor little PissantJang, It will be ok little PissantJang. You destroy everybody with the depth of your arguments. Now go to sleep.

Hehehehehehe. You have the gift of posting with such stupidity as to leave nothing much else to say.

 

[sandorski]

The biggest problem with Communism is that it has become the Great Strawman used for arguing against everything the Right doesn't agree with.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

The biggest problem with Communism is that it has become the Great Strawman used for arguing against everything the Right doesn't agree with.

I feel Godwin coming on...

 

[Atreus21]

Indeed you did, and it makes you look like an idiot what hasn't the foggiest clue what "communism" is. If you don't want to look like such a buffoon you might want to change your Subject to something at least slightly accurate.

Just sayin'.

Frankly, an ideology that has directly claimed the lives of millions doesn't require many clues to understand. It speaks not to my idiocy but to yours that you should defend it.

 

[werepossum]

Main problem in this thread is 2 things.

A lot of people here have no clue about Communism.

You guys keep speaking of lazy people in a communist society. Yet Communist societies have no unemployment.
(Unemployment is a optional element of a modern capitalist society to naturally drive down wages to benefit the capitalist class.)


You guys really should read some, you have quite a bit wrong, and it is odd, as none of what you are saying is common sense for a functional society to work. In other words you have been fed BS.



In the Soviet Constitution, Article Twelve states:

In the U.S.S.R. work is a duty and a matter of honor for every able-bodied citizen, in accordance with the principle: "He who does not work, neither shall he eat."

The biggest fallacy I see (and the foundation of the conservative movement nowadays) is that Socialist societies are repressive to growth because everyone is equal. The elephant in the center of the room everyone has ignored about reality is that no Marxist-Leninist society has EVER been anything near what Marx proposed.

EVERY Communist "test run" tried since the day Marx penned the last words in the Manifesto has included:
A. A Cash-based scaled and tiered wage economy depending on ones type of labor
B. Bosses/Ruling classes who dictate their own needs over workers.
C. Profiteering by the State on the workers backs.

In other words: a State Capitalist society with a bit of capitalist welfare state tacked on in some cases.


Another misconception:

A lot of: "It is just human nature! <insert excuse here>" This is a excuse for intellectual laziness, or to dismiss the subject without further insight. (or plain manipulation by the ruling classes of society to keep themselves in power by dividing and conquering the people against one another so they can stay happy manipulated consumers) The "human nature" bit is a myth as all individuals have their own reasonings and situations they have built upon to come to where they are. If one thing about the human race is a immutable fact and got us to where we are is that humans work together. Not the opposite. (which is known as a disorder in modern society - a sociopath)

Ahh, but what about good old Randian greed? Problem with this is that self preservation comes out of necessity or need. How far one is willing to go for a "want" is a case by case basis. Most "wants" nowadays are manipulations by the capitalists through freudian mindfucking. (advertising based off of ones inner need for validation or acceptance.) -which is optional to a society. Public Relations and advertising firms do this for a living out in the open manipulating people into irrational wants which benefit the capitalist class by lowering the chance of overproduction of a commodity thus loss of profitability.)

We live in a world nowadays with technology where there is no excuse for hunger or want. Capitalism will kill us all one day if we do not "evolve" beyond where the ruling classes manipulate us to keep their power through outdated mindsets such as shown in this thread.

Low unemployment is a selling point in all forms of slavery. It's not necessarily a good selling point though, unless you happen to be in the ruling class. Kudos though for recycling the old argument that Marxism has never been properly tried, though I shudder to think how many millions would have to be murdered for that proper trial. Nice to know though that none of YOUR stuff are irrational needs driven by "freudian mindfucking". Nope, YOUR MP3 player and YOUR computer and YOUR music and YOUR televisions are all essential needs, it's all those other people wanting stuff that are screwing up the world.

 

[xj0hnx]

The problem with communism is it's full of ...communist.

 

[WelshBloke]

...is that eventually you run out of other peoples' money.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...43R3JQ?docId=528bfa0f2dec4bf8a9c7132848ebfc0d



These people have got some nerve. It's their birthright that they get free health-care.

Arrogant bunch of folks. I'm proud to be an American, where at least some semblance of sanity still resides.

Its interesting that you call them arrogant but feel entitled to tell them how to run their country. :hmm:

 

[xj0hnx]

Its interesting that you call them arrogant but feel entitled to tell them how to run their country. :hmm:

Where is he "telling them how to run their country"? Many foreigners feel it's their right to bash America, and give their opinions on how we should run our country.

 

[First]

Frankly, an ideology that has directly claimed the lives of millions doesn't require many clues to understand. It speaks not to my idiocy but to yours that you should defend it.

Um, and capitalism hasn't claimed the lives of millions of people? Let's not pretend it hasn't. I'd never want a communist society of course, but let's be honest, "capitalism" has killed as many people as "communism" has, as if either really "killed" anyone.

 

[PJABBER]

Um, and capitalism hasn't claimed the lives of millions of people? Let's not pretend it hasn't. I'd never want a communist society of course, but let's be honest, "capitalism" has killed as many people as "communism" has, as if either really "killed" anyone.

I haven't been able to find any statistics for capitalism killing millions of people in ideological purges and mass starvations. However, the "inefficiencies" of communism and its predilection for genocidal actions against the people that are governed by these totalitarian systems is very well documented, so I'll reoffer those.

Communist Body Count

Scott Manning
December 4, 2006

The following estimates represent citizens killed or starved to death by their own Communist governments since 1918. These numbers do not include war dead. The governments are sorted by body count (highest to lowest).

All numbers are mid-estimates.

While this list is as complete as I have been able to determine, it is evolving. Some numbers are incomplete and there are still five Communist countries that have the potential to kill more of their citizens. Over the next year, each government will be profiled in detail on this website.

A detailed bibliography is listed at the end of this page.

Communist Body Count: 149,469,610

Rank

1. People's Republic of China

Body Count: 73,237,000
1949-Present (57+ years and counting)
​

R.J. Rummel originally estimated China's body count between between the years of 1949-1987 to be 35,236,000 (Rummel 1994). This excluded 38,000,000 million that died of famine during the Great Leap Forward. After the release of Mao: The Unknown Story, Rummel became convinced that the Chinese government was directly responsible for the famine, thus increasing his original estimate by 38,000,000 (Rummel 2005). 1,000 was added for Tienanmen Square in 1989 (Courtois 1999).

2. Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
​

Body Count: 58,627,000
1922-1991 (69 years)

The body count only covers the years 1923-1987 (Rummel 1996).

3. Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic
​

Body Count: 3,284,000
1918-1922 (4 years)

This body count does not include the 6,210,000 killed in the civil war (Rummel 1996).

4. Democratic People's Republic of Korea
​

Body Count: 3,163,000
1948-Present (58+ years and counting)

1,663,000 is attributed between 1948-1987 excluding the Korean War (Rummel 1994). 2,500,000 is the mid-estimate for those who starved to death between 1995-1998 (U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea 2006).

5. Cambodia
Body Count: 2,627,000
1975-1987 (12 years)

The body count estimate is complete (Rummel 1994). The offical country name was Democratic Kampuchea during Pol Pot's reign and then known as People's Republic of Kampuchea afterwards.

6. Democratic Republic of Afghanistan
​

Body Count: 1,750,000
1978-1992 (14 years)

The body count estimate is complete (Courtois 1999).

7. Vietnam
​

Body Count: 1,670,000
1975-Present (30+ years and counting)

The body count covers the years 1945-1987 for Vietnam/North Vietnam and excludes 1,062,000 from the Vietnam War (Rummel 1994).

8. People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia
​

Body Count: 1,343,610
1974-1991 (17 years)

The body count includes 10,000 political assasinations during 1977-1978, 1,000 children killed in 1977, 110 massacred in an Orthodox church in 1975, 80,000 during the civil war between 1978-1980, 250,000 that died in 1982 through Transit Camps, and 2,500 killed in a bombing raid (Courtois 1999). Another 1,000,000 is added for the famine during 1984-1985 (BBC News 2000).

9. Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
​

Body Count: 1,072,000
1945-1992 (47 years)

The body count only covers the years 1945-1992 excluding 100,000 from the Tito Partisans between 1941-1944 (Rummel 1994).

10. Chinese Soviet Republic
​

Body Count: 700,000
1931-1934 (3 years)

The body count only includes the Jiangxi and Fujian provinces (Chang 2005). Although Mozambique has 700,000 to its name, the Chinese Soviet Republic produced more bodies in a shorter time period and the estimate is low.

11. People's Republic of Mozambique
​

Body Count: 700,000
1975-1990 (15 years)

100,000 civilians murdered between 1986 and mid-1988 (Young 1991) and 600,000 starved to death between 1975-1985 (Courtois 1999).

12. Socialist Republic of Romania
​

Body Count: 435,000
1947-1989 (42 years)

The body count only covers the years 1947-1987 (Rummel 1997).

13. People's Republic of Bulgaria
​

Body Count: 222,000
1946-1990 (44 years)

The body count only covers the years 1948-1987 (Rummel 1997).

14. People's Republic of Angola
​

Body Count: 125,000
1975-1992 (17 years)

The body count only covers the years 1975-1987 (Rummel 1997).

15. Mongolian People's Republic
​

Body Count: 100,000
1924-1992 (68 years)

The body count only covers the years 1924-1987 (Rummel 1997).

16. People's Socialist Republic of Albania
​

Body Count: 100,000
1946-1991 (45 years)

The body count only covers the years 1944-1987 (Rummel 1997).

17. Republic of Cuba
Body Count: 73,000
1961-Present (45+ years and counting)

The body count only covers the years 1959-1987 (Rummel 1997).

18. German Democratic Republic
Body Count: 70,000
1949-1990 (41 years)

The body count only covers the years 1948-1987 (Rummel 1997).

19. Socialist Republic of Czechoslovakia
Body Count: 65,000
1948-1990 (42 years)

The body count only covers the years 1948-1968 (Rummel 1997).

20. Lao People's Democratic Republic
Body Count: 56,000
1975-Present (31+ years and counting)

The body count only covers the years 1975-1987 excluding 47,000 war dead (Rummel 1997).

21. Hungarian People's Republic
Body Count: 27,000
1949-1989 (40 years)

The body count only covers the years 1948-1987 (Rummel 1997).

22. People's Republic of Poland
Body Count: 22,000
1948-1989 (41 years)

The body count only covers the years 1948-1987 (Rummel 1997). Excludes 1,585,000 from ethnic cleansing between 1945-1950 (Rummel 1994).

23. People's Democratic Republic of Yemen
Body Count: 1,000
1969-1990 (21 years)

The body count only covers the years 1969-1987 (Rummel 1997).

References

BBC News (2000, April 6). Flashback 1984: portrait of a famine. Retrieved May 7, 2006, from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/703958.stm

Chang, Jung, & Halliday, Jon (2005). Mao: the unknown story

(1st American ed.). New York: Alfred A Knopf.

Courtois, S., Werth, N., Panne, J., Paczkowski, A., Bartosek, K., & Margolin, J. (1999). The black book of Communism: crimes, terror, repression

. United States: Harvard University Press.

Rummel, R. J. (1994). Death by government

. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers.

Rummel, R. J. (1996). Lethal politics: Soviet genocide and mass murder since 1917

(1st paperback ed.). New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers.

Rummel, R. J. (2005, November 20). Reevaluating China's democide to be 73,000,000. Retrieved April 5, 2006, from http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2005/11/reevaluating-chinas-democide-to-be.html

Rummel, R. J. (1997). Statistics of democide: genocide and mass murder since 1900

. Charlottesville, Virginia: Transaction Publishers.

U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea (2006). Failure to protect: a call for the UN Security Council to act in North Korea. United States: DLA Piper.

Young, Lance S. (1991). Mozambique's sixteen-year bloody civil war. Retrieved November 1, 2006, from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1991/YLS.htm

 

[WelshBloke]

Where is he "telling them how to run their country"? Many foreigners feel it's their right to bash America, and give their opinions on how we should run our country.

And? You don't think that's arrogant as well?

Although saying "These people have got some nerve." seems a bit OTT.

And the OP seems to be criticizing people for wanting a say in the ruling of their own country.