The poor don't work because it doesn't make economic sense to hold a job

[3chordcharlie]

What's it's purpose, then?

-John

Alkemyst already told you that.

 

[Zorkorist]

I haven't read that book, but I'll note it.

There is very little that people today can be blamed for. It's the Government, Religion, Insurance Companies and Lawyers.

There is very little room for People.

-John

 

[alkemyst]

What's it's purpose, then?

-John

Are you serious?

It's to prevent all companies from setting the bar at $1/hr or less for work.

You realize they would end up getting people to work if that was the only wage available.

Crime and other things would spiral out of control to make up that missing money.

There is a big reason crime is prevailant at lower incomes, sadly it's sometimes just about putting food on the table.

In the end though, if people accepted their status in life and lived more communally they'd be a lot better off. However, everyone thinks they deserve a big screen TV, a LV or Gucci bag, iPhone and a nice laptop.

My wife's coworkers shared a 6 or 7 bedroom house. It was about 12-14 people living in it (I am sure the neighbors loved that)...they got it for a steal renting it as the previous owners gutted a lot of it.

I couldn't handle living in it and I thought it was interesting until I found out they were all maxed out on credit cards, leasing higher end cars, everyone had a 50" or larger TV in their bedrooms and most had two laptops.

Fuckers got robbed one day (probably by someone else in their circle of friends) and the cops were questioning people about the number of TV's and computers at one physical address.

They also lost 'custom glassware' and scientific scales worth a few thousand dollars.

The kicker: NO INSURANCE...they expected the State of Florida / Police to cover them.

The poor fuck themselves.

 

[Zorkorist]

And I am not saying that as a person standing by, while Government, Religion, Insurance Companies, and Lawyers, fight over my bones. I'm doing it now, because I think it is important.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Are you serious?

It's to prevent all companies from setting the bar at $1/hr or less for work.

You realize they would end up getting people to work if that was the only wage available.

Crime and other things would spiral out of control to make up that missing money.

There is a big reason crime is prevailant at lower incomes, sadly it's sometimes just about putting food on the table.

In the end though, if people accepted their status in life and lived more communally they'd be a lot better off. However, everyone thinks they deserve a big screen TV, a LV or Gucci bag, iPhone and a nice laptop.

My wife's coworkers shared a 6 or 7 bedroom house. It was about 12-14 people living in it (I am sure the neighbors loved that)...they got it for a steal renting it as the previous owners gutted a lot of it.

I couldn't handle living in it and I thought it was interesting until I found out they were all maxed out on credit cards, leasing higher end cars, everyone had a 50" or larger TV in their bedrooms and most had two laptops.

Fuckers got robbed one day (probably by someone else in their circle of friends) and the cops were questioning people about the number of TV's and computers at one physical address.

They also lost 'custom glassware' and scientific scales worth a few thousand dollars.

The kicker: NO INSURANCE...they expected the State of Florida / Police to cover them.

The poor fuck themselves.

You have completely forgotten what made America great.

It was the people, and there was no thought of Government.

-John

 

[paperfist]

The main problem is you are not flexible on where you can live. Its probably going to be a nasty area with bad schools, neighbors and crime. Unless you have the luxory of staying with relatives.

What i really dont like is how people who dont need it seem to get it and people who do, don't.

We just need a clear mission amd staffing that can consistantly deliver on that through the application process

You assume they care, they don't. No matter where you live you're subject to crime, possibility of bad neighbors and bad schools. The advantage of being poor outweighs it, sit at home all day, don't take any shit from an employer, have all the wine, women and song you want all provided free. They get to send their kids to the same public schools as someone earning a living.

So for them they get free cell phones, room and board, medical, food, legal advice and the like.

That ain't bad considering how much you have to pay to cover those costs as a worker.

 

[Doppel]

the uk does something that makes sense, depending on your age, there are different minimum wages.

this means that your high school equivalent gets paid less than a 18 year old student who gets paid less than your 25 year old uneducated but needs to make a living adult.

it makes it more possible for businesses to hire younger workers for reduced wages and allows a realistic minimum wage to be set for those who need to make a living.

the best idea i have heard so far though is from a post somewhere in this thread, base minimum wage on the fiscal health of the company. Walmart can afford to pay people more, the mom and pop shop cannot.

Minimum wage in practice is for labor that a chimpanzee can do after losing most of its brain stem, so if I could hire a high school kid to dunk fries at such and such an hour why would I hire an older person doing the same task at more per hour?

It's amazing how so few people in this thread don't realize that minimum wage is a) only what a tiny fraction of workers actually get and b) heavily biased toward young people using it for spending money and old folk supplementing their income. Few people do actually use it to live for years on end.

 

[alkemyst]

Minimum wage in practice is for labor that a chimpanzee can do after losing most of its brain stem, so if I could hire a high school kid to dunk fries at such and such an hour why would I hire an older person doing the same task at more per hour?

It's amazing how so few people in this thread don't realize that minimum wage is a) only what a tiny fraction of workers actually get and b) heavily biased toward young people using it for spending money and old folk supplementing their income. Few people do actually use it to live for years on end.

People tend to believe this, especially the educated. However, many of america are not ever rising much higher than minimum wage. Some are lucky to hit $10-$12.50/hr.

Even more are indeed getting a higher wage, but then only part time hours without benefits and in the end making about minimum wage over a 40 hour work week.

Median household income is something like $50k I think....thats about two people making $12.00/hr each. Chances are one is making slightly more and the other slightly less. Either way its not that far outside minimum wage.

 

[Throckmorton]

I almost fall out of my chair every time I see someone claim minimum wage jobs are mostly for high school kids. I'm guessing a lot of forum members have lived very sheltered lives in the wealthy suburbs.

 

[wuliheron]

I almost fall out of my chair every time I see someone claim minimum wage jobs are mostly for high school kids. I'm guessing a lot of forum members have lived very sheltered lives in the wealthy suburbs.

Poverty is also just kept out of sight better these days. The homeless are discouraged from hanging out in front of businesses, the poor dress better thanks to cheap imports, etc. What looks like a single family dwelling in the suburbs often can have multiple occupants illegally renting individual rooms. Illegal immigrants will sometimes jam 20 people into a motel room or 2 bedroom apartment.

Those that can't afford even that much might move into ghettos where again their poverty is largely kept out of sight. One friend of mine who is a serious professional went to a ghetto once to attend a funeral and was told by the police not to come back. Some of these ghettos even have high walls surrounding them to keep the occupants in and prevent their obvious existence from lowering neighboring real estate values.

 

[Zorkorist]

Good post Wuliberton.

-John

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I almost fall out of my chair every time I see someone claim minimum wage jobs are mostly for high school kids. I'm guessing a lot of forum members have lived very sheltered lives in the wealthy suburbs.

I grew up in a rural town in Southwestern Virginia and most (60%-75%) of the people who worked for minimum wage were teenagers/high school kids. I went to work full time in a grocery store after I graduated (1976) for almost double the minimum wage.

 

[ShawnD1]

I grew up in a rural town in Southwestern Virginia and most (60%-75%) of the people who worked for minimum wage were teenagers/high school kids. I went to work full time in a grocery store after I graduated (1976) for almost double the minimum wage.

That's how it works up north here as well.
-part time day shift at mcdonalds (or any retail/fast food) might get minimum wage if there's an excess of labor
-full time people get paid slightly more per hour
-night shift pays more than day shift

I remember Walmart being like that too. I never worked at Walmart but a friend was applying for night shift shelf stocking because it paid something like $13/hour. That's quite a bit more than day shift. They also got a discount card so everything they bought at Walmart was extra cheap. It probably depends on your city's economy. My city is doing pretty good, so nobody gets paid minimum wage. If your town is hit hard by recession, then there probably are a lot of minimum wage jobs.

 

[alkemyst]

I grew up in a rural town in Southwestern Virginia and most (60%-75%) of the people who worked for minimum wage were teenagers/high school kids. I went to work full time in a grocery store after I graduated (1976) for almost double the minimum wage.

40 years ago is a bit different than today.

Demographics are showing people are lucky to secure $25/HR of household income.

 

[ShawnD1]

Demographics are showing people are lucky to secure $25/HR of household income.

Indeed. There are actually a lot more poor people than anyone wants to admit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States
"Of those individuals with income who were older than 25 years of age, over 42% had incomes below $25,000 while the top 10% had incomes exceeding $82,500 a year."

Let that sink in for a second. If you make over 82.5k per year as an individual, you're technically in the top 10% of the entire US. ~40% of Americans over the age of 25 are working bullshit McDonalds jobs. No joke. The median family income in the US is around $50k, so basically the median family in the US is 2 parents working the night shift at Walmart.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Demographics are showing people are lucky to secure $25/HR of household income.

$25/hr is how many times the minimum wage?

 

[ShawnD1]

$25/hr is how many times the minimum wage?

Remember, that 50k USA average is household income. 2 people working brings it down to 25k per person. That's about $12-13 per hour. Depending on where you live, that's about 50% more than min wage.

That doesn't mean the average is 2 people flipping burgers, but it means those 2 people flipping burgers are very very very close to the average. "Average" Americans cannot laugh at people who work at McDonalds because the two are so close together.

 

[alkemyst]

It also doesn't consider many at that level and below may be working more than one job and more than 40 hours a week.

That $50k income is also reported as a median. It's much HIGHER than the real average.

 

[blackangst1]

40 years ago is a bit different than today.

Demographics are showing people are lucky to secure $25/HR of household income.

Well, adjusted for inflation, if minimum wage was what it was in the the 70's it would be about $8.50/hr, or $17,600/yr. I dont think anyone would think thats a living wage either.

Fact is, less than 5% of hourly wage earners are making minimum wage, and even if we raised it to $9/hr families will still suffer. I dont have a solution, but a few things I know are increasing the size of the handout wont motivate anyone to get off of it, and forcing the poverty line UP will just do that...force it up, not eliminate it. If minimum wage was somehow $35k/yr, then $30k/yr would be the new poverty and we'd be back in the cycle we're in now.

 

[Throckmorton]

Indeed. There are actually a lot more poor people than anyone wants to admit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States
"Of those individuals with income who were older than 25 years of age, over 42% had incomes below $25,000 while the top 10% had incomes exceeding $82,500 a year."

Let that sink in for a second. If you make over 82.5k per year as an individual, you're technically in the top 10% of the entire US. ~40% of Americans over the age of 25 are working bullshit McDonalds jobs. No joke. The median family income in the US is around $50k, so basically the median family in the US is 2 parents working the night shift at Walmart.

That's mind boggling. The concentration of income and wealth isn't even at the top 10%, it's at the top 1%.

$82,500 is how much I hope to make in 5-10 years... enough to live pretty comfortably in a low cost of living area. And that's the 10% percentile??

 

[Throckmorton]

I grew up in a rural town in Southwestern Virginia and most (60%-75%) of the people who worked for minimum wage were teenagers/high school kids. I went to work full time in a grocery store after I graduated (1976) for almost double the minimum wage.

I'm thinking 1976 is the key word here.

That grocery store probably doesn't exist anymore because they've been put out of business by the Always Low Prices at Wal Mart.

Now the teenagers aren't working and their parents are doing the minimum wage jobs, because the real jobs went to China, making crap for that same Wal Mart.

 

[ShawnD1]

That $50k income is also reported as a median. It's much HIGHER than the real average.

Usually, the mean average is higher than the median because rich people are much farther away from the median than poor people are. What I mean by that is you'll have a situation where 7 people make 50k per year and 1 person makes 1 million per year, and 1 person has absolutely no income. The median for this group of 9 people would be 50k, which is accurate because it shows exactly where the middle of the group is. The mean (average) for this group would be 150k which is waaaay above the majority of the group because that 1 rich person has such a strong effect on the average. When using median instead of mean, no single person can throw the entire thing out of whack.

To get an idea of how this works, think of how far the extremes are and think of how much effect each extreme has on the average. Suppose the average income is 50k. Absolutely no income is zero. The difference between no income and the average is 50k. A super crazy ass rich person will make maybe 10 million, which is 9950k away from the average. A few rich people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet can completely throw the average so it's much higher than the median.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I'm thinking 1976 is the key word here.

That grocery store probably doesn't exist anymore because they've been put out of business by the Always Low Prices at Wal Mart.

Now the teenagers aren't working and their parents are doing the minimum wage jobs, because the real jobs went to China, making crap for that same Wal Mart.

My daughter, nieces, and nephew all worked while they were in high school, the youngest just graduated from high school. They all earned minimum wage or better working at grocery stores, Veterinary office assistant, and paving crew worker. At the current time with the exception of my daughter (currently in the Army), they're going to college and still making better than minimum wage. This is in that same rural area of Southwestern Virginia.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

A few rich people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet can completely throw the average so it's much higher than the median.

Most people at that level receive $1 a year salary, they make their money on stocks/options which wouldn't be used to determine median income.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

That grocery store probably doesn't exist anymore because they've been put out of business by the Always Low Prices at Wal Mart.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/consumer/110419-grocery-prices

What's that mean in dollars and cents? It means that buying the same items that you might buy once a week, is costing you more at every store in our survey.

$4.34 more at Kroger. $2.47 more at HEB. $5.25 more at Wal-Mart.