dpopiz, I think thats what the first 20 messages in this thread were about 🙂 But besides this thread, see the other 2 threads I linked to earlier. Certainly put the fear of God into me. It may well be that there is a 99% chance that nothing bad will ever happen to you, but personally I like odds a little better than that when the costs are so high (especially since it is not just me, it is my wife, kids, etc.)
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The people on Tech TV are dangerous, they reccomended running Cat5 outside.
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dpopiz, I think thats what the first 20 messages in this thread were about 🙂 But besides this thread, see the other 2 threads I linked to earlier. Certainly put the fear of God into me. It may well be that there is a 99% chance that nothing bad will ever happen to you, but personally I like odds a little better than that when the costs are so high (especially since it is not just me, it is my wife, kids, etc.)
sorry...okay so I read the threads now
Please forgive me because I'm still pretty clueless about all this, anyway it sounds to me like the only danger to running cat5 outside is lightning and uv deterioration.
well, we barely ever have lightning strikes anywhere near here and after 2 years the cables look new and I still get good performance.
is a lightning strike really that dangerous? I don't see how just a current running into the nic could damage the whole computer or kill someone
Please forgive me because I'm still pretty clueless about all this, anyway it sounds to me like the only danger to running cat5 outside is lightning and uv deterioration.
well, we barely ever have lightning strikes anywhere near here and after 2 years the cables look new and I still get good performance.
is a lightning strike really that dangerous? I don't see how just a current running into the nic could damage the whole computer or kill someone
Why couldn't it blow the whole computer up? I guess once you've seen a PC get hit by lightening (I lost one because of poor phone wiring - hit the nic, fried the mobo, powersupp, monitor, everything). I've also seen a rack full of gear fried.
Lightening is a funny beast.
Can it kill someone? People have been killed talking on the phone or taking a shower. My Aunt's been struck twice over the phone, she lives in a very rural part of the country.
Lightening is a funny beast.
Can it kill someone? People have been killed talking on the phone or taking a shower. My Aunt's been struck twice over the phone, she lives in a very rural part of the country.
There is more to the issue besides lightning (though lightning is a *really* good thing to consider).
There are a number of things that can cause a difference of potential between two systems, especially if the two systems are in different buildings.
There are also possible environmental issues for external copper, even if it's going to two locations in the same building (even a house). They range from the blatently obvious (like lightning), to the unlikely-but-possible (like having a power line drop across it), the the ridiculous-but-possible (remember all the talk about folks putting straight pins through someone's CB antenna coax?).
One of the less-than-obvious dangers (to the equipment anyway) is static. If the cable is exposed to a dry & windy environment (like winter or desert areas), the wind can charge the cabling with static ... static is a very bad thing for semiconductors. Extreme static charges can be present (in the form of a traveling ion charge) as active clouds (like developing T-storms) pass. If your cabling happens to be a good discharge path (like, through your PC or switch/hub) for the traveling charge, your equipment gets whacked.
Other obscure possibilities include people eavesdropping (the vertical copper acts as a radiating element, expecially if improperly terminated). The Tempest specification was developed because someone figured out that CRTs (used to) radiate like a mother, and that energy could be intercepted, "decoded," and remotely viewed. (Tempest is pretty much a dead issue these days, but the principle is similar). Some neighbors are ignorant enough to try splicing into the cabling....ya just never know...
Differences of potential and discharge paths are the nuts & bolts of why it the use of UTP (really, any copper) outdoors is a bad thing; even if it's buried, even if it's in conduit. The "entrance protection" elements are there (should be there) to shunt potentially dangerous surges / currents / voltages into a safe discharge path.
FWIW
Scott
There are a number of things that can cause a difference of potential between two systems, especially if the two systems are in different buildings.
There are also possible environmental issues for external copper, even if it's going to two locations in the same building (even a house). They range from the blatently obvious (like lightning), to the unlikely-but-possible (like having a power line drop across it), the the ridiculous-but-possible (remember all the talk about folks putting straight pins through someone's CB antenna coax?).
One of the less-than-obvious dangers (to the equipment anyway) is static. If the cable is exposed to a dry & windy environment (like winter or desert areas), the wind can charge the cabling with static ... static is a very bad thing for semiconductors. Extreme static charges can be present (in the form of a traveling ion charge) as active clouds (like developing T-storms) pass. If your cabling happens to be a good discharge path (like, through your PC or switch/hub) for the traveling charge, your equipment gets whacked.
Other obscure possibilities include people eavesdropping (the vertical copper acts as a radiating element, expecially if improperly terminated). The Tempest specification was developed because someone figured out that CRTs (used to) radiate like a mother, and that energy could be intercepted, "decoded," and remotely viewed. (Tempest is pretty much a dead issue these days, but the principle is similar). Some neighbors are ignorant enough to try splicing into the cabling....ya just never know...
Differences of potential and discharge paths are the nuts & bolts of why it the use of UTP (really, any copper) outdoors is a bad thing; even if it's buried, even if it's in conduit. The "entrance protection" elements are there (should be there) to shunt potentially dangerous surges / currents / voltages into a safe discharge path.
FWIW
Scott
hmm I'm just thinking...I had my cable installed by a good electrician (although he didn't have any experience with ethernet; I had to show him how to hook up the wires to the rj45 jacks), so maybe I do have some kind of protection installed....is there any way I could tell?
Obviously people here haven't seen the results of a high lightning strike area. My mother lives on the top of a hill in rural PA. As of about 2 months ago, I have picked through the remains of 4 computers layed to shambles by phone line connections to modems. This has happened after the phone line surge suppressors were rendered functionless by lightning strikes. Then it just takes one time of forgetting to unplug the phone line when not in use to fry a nice computer. She now has 2 spare phone line suppressors. I guess most people have never seen a chunk of the main modem chip physically blown off the board. The last one had all the power conditioning capacitors burnt. I was lucky on the first computer in that it was only the modem that died. The last 2 have been turned into doorstops. Sure most people don't live in areas were you ever need to worry about grounding your TV antenna. I just thought I'ld give people a nice horror story.
The ground potential issue is one that most people can't understand. Ground is all a relative thing. You learn this usually the hard way when working with low signal to noise circuitry. Proper grounding makes all the difference. Sure things like ethernet may work simply because they have a fair bit of margin in the signals, but I wouldn't trust it. Having your 2 houses grounded together through your expensive computers ethernet card, isn't my idea of a safe setup. Admittedly, most of this discussion continues to fall on deaf ears.
Just like the friend who had his brother in-law, who is a licensed commercial electrician, wire a new breaker box into his housefor "free". Since the old box had the neutral and ground tied together, he was sure the neutral didn't need to be connected at all????? Ever see the white light that occurs when every electrical appliance in your house decides to arc to complete the electrical circuit. From what I understand it is a pretty sickening feeling.
But what the heck, what you can't see won't hurt you. Right?
After this rant, I have to qualify my statements. I am all for people doing whatever they want. Run CAT5 outside, eat at fast food restaurants and believe that the food won't make you gain weight, don't wear a seatbelt and ride your motorcycle without a helmet. Just don't come crying, or suing, when things go terribly wrong.
The ground potential issue is one that most people can't understand. Ground is all a relative thing. You learn this usually the hard way when working with low signal to noise circuitry. Proper grounding makes all the difference. Sure things like ethernet may work simply because they have a fair bit of margin in the signals, but I wouldn't trust it. Having your 2 houses grounded together through your expensive computers ethernet card, isn't my idea of a safe setup. Admittedly, most of this discussion continues to fall on deaf ears.
Just like the friend who had his brother in-law, who is a licensed commercial electrician, wire a new breaker box into his housefor "free". Since the old box had the neutral and ground tied together, he was sure the neutral didn't need to be connected at all????? Ever see the white light that occurs when every electrical appliance in your house decides to arc to complete the electrical circuit. From what I understand it is a pretty sickening feeling.
But what the heck, what you can't see won't hurt you. Right?
After this rant, I have to qualify my statements. I am all for people doing whatever they want. Run CAT5 outside, eat at fast food restaurants and believe that the food won't make you gain weight, don't wear a seatbelt and ride your motorcycle without a helmet. Just don't come crying, or suing, when things go terribly wrong.
Goosemaster
Lifer
When A big storm rolls in, call me.
The usualy entrance protection blocks can be a couple different form factors. The Avaya unit for their external-grade Cat5 looks to be a block about 3 inches square. It looks like it's using a gas-discharge breakdown device with maybe some other components (maybe a MOV - looks like a flat round disk with two leads ~3/4 inch diameter).
The "quick view" evaluation would be to look for where the cable ends, if there's a phone "biscuit block" looking thing on the end with a GROUND WIRE coming out of it (hopefully going to a good ground). There should be one on both ends.
*biscuit block is the traditional little box that the telephone plugs into. An entrance protection device is a little larger.
FWIW
Scott
The "quick view" evaluation would be to look for where the cable ends, if there's a phone "biscuit block" looking thing on the end with a GROUND WIRE coming out of it (hopefully going to a good ground). There should be one on both ends.
*biscuit block is the traditional little box that the telephone plugs into. An entrance protection device is a little larger.
FWIW
Scott
I have nothing to rub when other people are talking about 5-8mbps cable connections ... makes me think my large outbound connection is a tad over priced -- and I get it for dirt cheap because I work at my ISP!
As for the grounding, here in Colorado we have people's DSL stuff cook all the time due to lightning. When a lightning storm gets really bad, we lose DSL modems and customer modems out the wazoo. Somebody mentioned grounding your two houses via Cat5 and ethernet cards, and that's what you're doing -- if either house has a surge or static build up or even a bad glance from god, kiss at least your nic goodbye, if not your whole box.
randal 😀
Jeff7
Lifer
Plug you power supply into 220V - that's only 2x the power that the thing is rated, and it'll still toast it. Now send a lightning bolt through it - several thousand volts at a few thousand amps. That'll toast just about anything.
I have nothing to rub when other people are talking about 5-8mbps cable connections ... makes me think my large outbound connection is a tad over priced -- and I get it for dirt cheap because I work at my ISP!
Geez, I wish I had that kind of speed. My cable is capped at only 800kbps.🙁
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