The Official Kaveri Review Thread (A10-7850K, etc)

[Arkaign]

So, first people complain 7850K CPU part is too slow. Now people recommend a whole bunch slower trinity athlon instead?
I'm not keeping up, give me a break!

The Athlon X4 750k (and especially 760K) are fast enough for gaming honestly.

For HTPC, the Kaveri is overkill. For gaming, the GPU is too weak $ for $. The only place it has is for users who must must MUST have a slim case. That's it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113348

760K $89

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814127687

7770GE $99 (can find 7790 for about the same if you're patient)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113359

7850K $184.99

And you don't even need fast ram for the 760K/7770GE combo to make it run well.

This has been proven over and over and over and over.

Which combo do you think will game better?

 

[Erenhardt]

Im not arguing athlon value. What I am surprised is a 180 degree change on kaveri CPU performance front.

 

[SPBHM]

Im not arguing athlon value. What I am surprised is a 180 degree change on kaveri CPU performance front.

Celeron is great for $50, garbage for $200.

Kaveri is not worth $180 as a CPU (i5 territory), and once you decide to use discrete graphics that's exactly what the 7850K is,

trinity/richland as CPU is fine for a low cost gaming PC with $100 VGA.
and for a low cost gaming PC it makes sense to go with discrete graphics and lower priced CPU,

 

[Arkaign]

Celeron is great for $50, garbage for $200.

Kaveri is not worth $180 as a CPU (i5 territory), and once you decide to use discrete graphics that's exactly what the 7850K is,

trinity/richland as CPU is fine for a low cost gaming PC with $100 VGA.
and for a low cost gaming PC it makes sense to go with discrete graphics and lower priced CPU,

Exactly. Kaveri just occupies a weird spot honestly.

HTPC builds can be done for much less and be just as good for that purpose if you're not gaming on them.

Gaming builds on a budget are dramatically better with a CPU+GPU combo with something like that 760K.

For people with high CPU performance in mind, $180 starts to get you into Haswell i5 land, and that's just hands-down better in that regard. And typically someone who pays $180 for the CPU alone has no qualms about buying a legit GPU if they do want to game (which is a distinct minority in the overall PC market anyway).

So it's kind of an odd bird.

 

[AtenRa]

Incorrect. One can get a Kepler GT 640 right now for $59 US$: http://www.amazon.com/Zotac-NVIDIA-G...eywords=gt+640 (and there are various other variants that are $69 US$).

Just because you found a single GT640 at $60 doesnt mean everyone can buy one at that price. I could as easily say that you can buy the A10-7850K at $130 in Microcenter. Also, you people always forgetting that prices are different in the rest of the world.

Incorrect again. The [DDR3] Kepler GT 630 variant has 2x more ROP's than the [DDR3] Fermi GT 630 variant. So in comparison, it has > 2x more pixel fillrate [ie. ROP throughput], > 1.28x more texture fillrate, and > 2x more shader throughput, all at half the TDP. In fact, Asus claims that their $55 [DDR3] Kepler GT 630 variant has up to 40% higher performance than the Fermi GT 630 variant: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814121836

With half the Memory bandwidth at 1080p it will under perform badly.

Last but not least, if one wants a Kepler GPU with a 128-bit memory bus interface, there is Kepler GT 640, which has far superior performance and comparable (if not lower) power consumption compared to [DDR3] Fermi GT 630. The Fermi GT 630 card is based on the ancient Fermi GT 440 that was launched three years ago.

And it is even more expensive than GT630.

Note that one can now find [GDDR5] GTX 650 for $79 US$, which is 100-200% faster (ie. 2-3x faster) than [DDR3] Fermi GT 630, with only slightly higher power consumption: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814134163

You keep raising the final price. We want Core i3 + dGPU at A10-7850K price.

 

[AtenRa]

Already hinted at it in my reply, but it boils down to those low bottom cards offering terrible performance per dollar. Saying we are better than trash, is pretty comical. Maybe, just maybe, people who are buying cards like the HD 7770/650 TI are not poor and stupid, it could be that they prefer to get the most value for their money at a reasonable thermal envelope, something top tier product don't offer basically.

This whole 1080p@30 narrative is desperate, because it's the setting at which Kaveri is bound to be GPU bottlenecked, best case scenario along with meaningless FPS averages not remotely representative of the actual experience. There is no use contesting discrete cards and i3s (intel IPC lead and DDR5 can't be be beat, sad but true), the whole point of Kaveri is not to have a dGPU.

I like Kaveri, it eliminates redundancy and a fan and thus a source of noise, it has low idle consumption and the low graphics clock means its graphics is reasonably power efficient. The RAM limitations, even sort of make Kaveri interesting for tinkering. Most of all it removes the need to dedicate one's build to something as stupid and soul destroying as hardcore gaming, still leaving the option to experience your Portal 2s and Stanley Parables casually, knowing that drivers and architecture will support it.

You completely missed the point of the Review. In order to have the A10-7850K CPU and iGPU performance you need to buy a Core i3 + dGPU. That makes the Intel more expensive with lower GPU performance in Gaming.

 

[Arkaign]

You completely missed the point of the Review. In order to have the A10-7850K CPU and iGPU performance you need to buy a Core i3 + dGPU. That makes the Intel more expensive with lower GPU performance in Gaming.

Indeed. AMD still wins, but they are sort of competing against themselves.

Staying with AMD, I'd be much happier with a 760K + 7770/7790.

Yes, it won't fit in an HTPC slim case however. For HTPC a much cheaper/cooler CPU/APU makes sense (if not for any gaming purposes).

 

[AtenRa]

Athlon X4 750K $79.99
ECS GTX650-2GR5-GFM GeForce GTX 650 2GB 128-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 Video Card
$79.99

why not include this on the video and actually make it informative, relevant?

Because the Athlon 750K is slower than A10-7850K in CPU performance. The review in answering the question what you need to get at the same price as the A10-7850K to have the same performance both in CPU and GPU. The answer is a Core i3 + dGPU. The review is not about what is the cheaper solution to bit Kaveri in Gaming. 🙄

 

[Phynaz]

AtenRa, your argument changes in every post you make. Really, we get it, you like AMD. You make money selling AMD.

But jeez, if you are going to shoot down every single criticism of Kaveri, at least be consistent from post to post.

In the space of two posts you said the i3 was more expensive, and your very next post you said the comparison wasn't about cost. 😱

 

[AtenRa]

Indeed. AMD still wins, but they are sort of competing against themselves.

Staying with AMD, I'd be much happier with a 760K + 7770/7790.

Yes, it won't fit in an HTPC slim case however. For HTPC a much cheaper/cooler CPU/APU makes sense (if not for any gaming purposes).

I would choose the 760K + 7790 but that is not what the review is trying to show.

 

[AtenRa]

AtenRa, your argument changes in every post you make. Really, we get it, you like AMD. You make money selling AMD.

If you dont have something to counter my position dont personally attack me. There is a point when enough is enough. Keep your personal insults to yourself. And you have no idea what i sell or not, so keep it out of here.

But jeez, if you are going to shoot down every single criticism of Kaveri, at least be consistent from post to post.

Do you actually have anything to say about the review posted above or you are going to constantly troll at every post i make??? If you have a point against the review pls feel free to post it, personally attacking me again will get you reported.

 

[Phynaz]

Report away, I attacked your posts, not you.

 

[SPBHM]

Because the Athlon 750K is slower than A10-7850K in CPU performance. The review in answering the question what you need to get at the same price as the A10-7850K to have the same performance both in CPU and GPU. The answer is a Core i3 + dGPU. The review is not about what is the cheaper solution to bit Kaveri in Gaming. 🙄

and the 7850K is slower than the 4330 in CPU performance, so what is your point?

"In the broader sense however, Kaveri doesn't really change the CPU story for AMD. Steamroller comes with a good increase in IPC, but without a corresponding increase in frequency AMD fails to move the single threaded CPU performance needle. To make matters worse, Intel's dual-core Haswell parts are priced very aggressively and actually match Kaveri's CPU clocks. With a substantial advantage in IPC and shipping at similar frequencies, a dual-core Core i3 Haswell will deliver much better CPU performance than even the fastest Kaveri at a lower price."

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7677/amd-kaveri-review-a8-7600-a10-7850k/16

my selection was fine, 750K + 650 GDDR5 is superior for gaming for a lower price.

how much slower is a 760K? $90 3.8GHz Richland vs $180 3.7GHz Kaveri.

you can still have that 650 GDDR5 or 7750 GDDR5 + 760K for less money than the 7850 alone, 7850K is a badly priced product.

 

[AtenRa]

and the 7850K is slower than the 4330 in CPU performance, so what is your point?

The CPU performance is 10% slower on average when the Core i3 + GT630 is way slower than 10% in Gaming.

At the same price, you get 10% slower CPU performance and 30-40-50% higher GPU performance than Core i3 + GT630. Thats what the review shows and what people doesnt like. :whiste:

 

[Essence_of_War]

No, I don't think anyone is arguing with you about what the review shows, people are arguing with you over whether the review is relevant.

Who cares about comparison with the GT630, it is awful price/performance.

 

[SPBHM]

The CPU performance is 10% slower on average when the Core i3 + GT630 is way slower than 10% in Gaming.

At the same price, you get 10% slower CPU performance and 30-40-50% higher GPU performance than Core i3 + GT630. Thats what the review shows and what people doesnt like. :whiste:

cool, now let's go back to the X4 + better VGA for the same/lower price (or increase the budget by a small %) and it's obvious that video is comparing 2 very bad choices.

 

[ams23]

Just because you found a single GT640 at $60 doesnt mean everyone can buy one at that price.

The [DDR3] Kepler GT 640 first launched almost 1.5 years ago. These type of lower prices will be the norm as this model gets cleared out to make room for the upcoming Geforce 7xx low-end and midrange cards.

With half the Memory bandwidth at 1080p it will under perform badly.

Like I said numerous times, that is incorrect due to ignorance of ROP throughput, shader throughput, and TMU throughput. See Fermi vs. Kepler GT 630 comparison here: http://www.pinoytechblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/image4.png

You keep raising the final price. We want Core i3 + dGPU at A10-7850K price.

The fact remains that there is a very small difference in street price right now between GT 630 and GT 640, and the [DDR3] GT 640 already outperforms the Kaveri GPU. There is also a small difference in street price right now between GT 630 and GTX 650, and the GTX 650 runs circles around the Kaveri GPU.

 

[AtenRa]

Like I said numerous times, that is incorrect due to ignorance of ROP throughput, shader throughput, and TMU throughput. See Fermi vs. Kepler GT 630 comparison here: http://www.pinoytechblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/image4.png

That comparison is in 1280x1024, the review was at 1080p. At 1080p you need memory bandwidth, no matter how many ROPs or TMUs you have.

 

[ams23]

That comparison is in 1280x1024

Which is a sensible resolution for such a low end GPU. And remember that I am comparing Fermi vs. Kepler variants. The Fermi GT 630 DDR3 variant is not heavily bottlenecked by memory bandwidth in the first place, and the Kepler GT 630 DDR3 variant is much more bandwidth efficient in comparison. But again, it is a silly argument to have in the first place because [DDR3] GT 640 (and especially GTX 650) is so much faster than GT 630 for only a small amount more money.

 

[AtenRa]

No, I don't think anyone is arguing with you about what the review shows, people are arguing with you over whether the review is relevant.

Who cares about comparison with the GT630, it is awful price/performance.

Newegg prices,

Hell, DDR-3 2133MHz is cheaper than 1600MHz 😛

A10-7850K = $185
+ 2x 4GB 2133MHz = $75

Total = $260

Core i3 4130 = $130
+ 2x 4GB 1600MHz = $77

Total = $207


That leaves you with $53 to get a dGPU. From NewEgg the best $53 dGPU is ??? yeap no GT630 at $53, they start at $55-56.

 

[hungtran]

Microcenter is selling the A10-7850K for $129.99 with the BF4 code. If you can sell the code for $30, then the A10 become a no-brainer purchase at less than $100. Hopefully, we see the price coming down soon for e-tailers.

 

[ams23]

That leaves you with $53 to get a dGPU.

Right, a consumer will arbitrarily set their max budget to equal the price of Kaveri 🙄

For $9 more the consumer will outperform Kaveri's GPU with GT 640, and for $26 more the consumer will trounce Kaveri's GPU with GTX 650.

 

[AtenRa]

Right, a consumer will arbitrarily set their max budget to equal the price of Kaveri 🙄

For $9 more the consumer will outperform Kaveri's GPU with GT 640, and for $26 more the consumer will trounce Kaveri's GPU with GTX 650.

You still dont get it right ??? for the same price Intel Core i3 needs a dGPU to compete and still is slower in Gaming. Not to add that the power consumption both in Idle and full load in Gaming will go up substantially and you have another device with another fan in the PC case.

 

[ams23]

You still dont get it right ?

No, I do get it. Aren't you the one who sells AMD APU's online? 😉

 

[AtenRa]

People also forgetting that adding a dGPU will add 15-25W at idle and 40W+ in gaming, completely invalidating Core i3 lower power consumption.