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The official Electric Car discussion thread

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Hey
I'd love an electric car and I've dumped all over this thread about the 3 big hurdles
$, range, charge times of the batteries
So, anytime I see something positive in battery development I post.
 
desy said:
Hey
I'd love an electric car and I've dumped all over this thread about the 3 big hurdles
$, range, charge times of the batteries
So, anytime I see something positive in battery development I post.
Click to expand...

I think range trumps all. If they could release a 500-mile electric car, that would make them practical. Tesla already has a 500-mile battery, but it's so crazy-expensive that they won't even sell it. I wouldn't want an 80-mile car that could fill up in 5 minutes...I'd still be having to charge it up alllll the time on my commute, which would be annoying.

The price is dropping...the Spark EV is $19k after tax rebates. Big price drop on the Focus EV ($6k off). If the Tesla Model 3 comes to market with a 200-mile range and a $35k price, that will be pretty practical for a lot more people than the current crop of EV's available. Although there is a rumor that the 2017 Chevy Spark EV may have a 200-mile range as well:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...onic-ev-more-electric-car-details-trickle-out
 
I'm stuck in traffic for over an hour in the middle of winter in a blizzard
My car can idle for hours and provide me heat how about my electric?
This pretty much happens a couple three times a season
 
desy said:
I'm stuck in traffic for over an hour in the middle of winter in a blizzard
My car can idle for hours and provide me heat how about my electric?
This pretty much happens a couple three times a season
Click to expand...

Yup. That's why it all goes back to the battery.

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but my buddy's Honda Fit EV drops to 19 miles of range in sub-20F temperatures; the battery is not shielded against weather changes, unlike the Tesla's. He was driving home one time and couldn't even turn on the defroster because it made his range drop to like 5 miles or something ridiculous, so he had to keep breathing on the windshield & wiping it off to keep it clear enough to drive home.

It's a great car, but the current limitations are the limitations. He kept a truck for backup (snow, long drives, cold weather), but since that only got 17 MPG, he didn't use it often. Personally I'm not interested in that much of a compromise due to my weekly commute requirements, but it's still a beast of a vehicle! So much torque :awe:
 
If you get stranded in a blizzard 2-3 times a year, you should talk to your job about their severe weather policies. And an electric car is probably not viable for you yet.
 
Kaido said:
I think range trumps all. If they could release a 500-mile electric car, that would make them practical. Tesla already has a 500-mile battery, but it's so crazy-expensive that they won't even sell it. I wouldn't want an 80-mile car that could fill up in 5 minutes...I'd still be having to charge it up alllll the time on my commute, which would be annoying.

The price is dropping...the Spark EV is $19k after tax rebates. Big price drop on the Focus EV ($6k off). If the Tesla Model 3 comes to market with a 200-mile range and a $35k price, that will be pretty practical for a lot more people than the current crop of EV's available. Although there is a rumor that the 2017 Chevy Spark EV may have a 200-mile range as well:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...onic-ev-more-electric-car-details-trickle-out
Click to expand...

With the Tesla Super-Charger network I don't see why a EV with a range of more than 200-250 miles is needed for most people. From my viewpoint Tesla is rapidy getting rid of the entire range anxiety issue with their EV's.
 
I think the cold range thing is blown way out of proportion. So much of it depends on how the heater is used, driving strategies etc. Sure if you are used to a gas car that has plenty of wasted energy you can use it all to heat the cabin to a comfy 90F if you want. But in an EV, you might have to settle for 55F and wearing a jacket (for now) plus heated seats.


"Over the past year, FleetCarma has been collecting data from 7,375 Nissan Leaf trips and 4,043 Chevrolet Volt trips. The best that a Leaf driver was able to get was 106 miles from the lithium ion batteries in freezing conditions. A Volt driver managed 38 miles on battery only when the temperature was 32 degrees Fahrenheit outside.

There has been a huge gap between those top performing numbers and what drivers do more often. While the aforementioned numbers – called "best range" – make cold weather driving look manageable, the "average range" was far different: Leaf drivers in the FleetCarma study were at 64 miles at 32° F, while for the Volt it was 26 miles.

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/12/26/drive-100-ev-miles-nissan-leaf-freezing/

If your commute is only say, 10 miles each way, and you can't figure out how to stretch these cars to make a round trip, you're doing it wrong.

And yes many EVs aren't being sold outside California yet for this reason. So if you're in Minnesota etc. and worried about EVs, just wait until they're actually being sold in the same quantities there and the problems will solve themselves by testing and driving strategies.

EVs don't use any energy at "idle" (the engine isn't running at idle), although the heater sure will. The most efficient people are probably using heated seats (instead of cabin heaters) and wearing heavy winter clothing while driving, and pre-heating the cabin before leaving (while charging) so it starts at ~80F.
 
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I want 500 mile range, no more than 10 minute charge time, and $30k price tag. I would be fine if it was of the quality and performance of a Prius if it had those numbers.
 
Actually work is pretty good that way
Problem with blizzards is sometimes they show up and sometimes they don't as they track north or south.
So while you show up at 8 am weather is good til 3 pm but something that was supposed to miss shows up, or showed up early, or went from snow to WTF!
I work downtown so all the lemmings are trying to rush out at the same time. car crash down a lane, somebody ran out of gas sitting too long OK push that out of the way still blocks a lane, overall still creeping alone in snow/ice. I commute 35 miles a day so most of the time the range would be fine but stack -40 or stuck into it.
I've had my V6 flex not even heat up enough to blow warm when driving and idling wow just watch the temp gauge plummet, you sit there pulsing the peddle just to get the revs up
 
Most gasoline powered cars have a range of @300-400 miles per tank, and that is enough for most people to commute for 1-2 weeks between fill ups.

EV's do not need a 500 mile range to be accepted by most drivers. I think 200 is the sweet spot that will open the market up.
 
tweakmonkey said:
And yes many EVs aren't being sold outside California yet for this reason.
Click to expand...

EVs are not sold outside of CA (and Oregon), because automakers are only interested in meeting state requirements for zero emissions vehicles. California requires manufacturers to sell zero-emissions vehicles on a schedule that started in 2012 and rises to 15.4 percent of new-vehicle sales by 2025.

The Chevy SparkEV (which uses the same actively heated/cooled battery system as the Volt without the extended range gas generator) is not sold outside of CA (or OR), because it is a compliance vehicle. Not because it can't handle the weather.
 
MiataNC said:
Most gasoline powered cars have a range of @300-400 miles per tank, and that is enough for most people to commute for 1-2 weeks between fill ups.

EV's do not need a 500 mile range to be accepted by most drivers. I think 200 is the sweet spot that will open the market up.
Click to expand...

200 miles in cold weather with the heater on. That and quick charging.
 
MiataNC said:
EVs are not sold outside of CA (and Oregon), because automakers are only interested in meeting state requirements for zero emissions vehicles. California requires manufacturers to sell zero-emissions vehicles on a schedule that started in 2012 and rises to 15.4 percent of new-vehicle sales by 2025.

The Chevy SparkEV (which uses the same actively heated/cooled battery system as the Volt without the extended range gas generator) is not sold outside of CA (or OR), because it is a compliance vehicle. Not because it can't handle the weather.
Click to expand...

Oh ok thanks - I should've just left it at "many EVs aren't being sold outside California". Anyway you look at it, the cold weather isn't a problem here 🙂
 
tweakmonkey said:
Oh ok thanks - I should've just left it at "many EVs aren't being sold outside California". Anyway you look at it, the cold weather isn't a problem here 🙂
Click to expand...

As a long time Southern Californian (1976-2011) that moved to Las Vegas, I really miss the weather with it his 110+. :biggrin:
 
I think I know how to handle the EV heat problem, but the vast majority of EV owners who choose EV for environmental reasons won't like it. Fuel. 3.8 pounds of propane contains as much energy as the 480lb battery in the Leaf. I've long thought that if I bought or converted an EV, the smart way to heat it would be with a catalytic propane heater, like this one. That puts out about 1100W, or about as much as an average home space heater. Probably not as much as a car's heater at full blast, but enough to keep one warm enough for a while.

I doubt any OEM will every fit a fuel-fired heater to an EV simply because of the green contingent outrage. Many EV buyers have sworn off of fuels entirely and would rather have their fingernails torn off than burn another hydrocarbon. It's too bad, since fuel for heat only could be a great stepping stone until amazing batteries come down the line in the medium-far future. Propane burns pretty darn clean, and it'd be easy to screw in a new refillable/exchangable cylinder once a week or so during the winter. It'd make EVs much more practical for cold climate dwellers.

Who knows, maybe someday I'll have an EV and get that catalytic heater above and clip it in the passenger seat. It takes just a little ventilation to be safe. The 1lb propane cylinders are outrageously expensive in the store, but can be refilled with cheap BBQ cylinder propane by any individual clever enough to buy the fitting on eBay and spend 10 minutes doing it.
 
MiataNC said:
I think 200 is the sweet spot that will open the market up.
Click to expand...

I could definitely live with a 200-mile EV (provided it's also 200 miles in the winter due to battery weather sealing). I predict the Model 3 will sell like hotcakes...
 
nedfunnell said:
I doubt any OEM will ever fit a fuel-fired heater to an EV simply because of the green contingent outrage.
Click to expand...

I think the safety issues would prevent such a system from being installed. CNG is a disaster waiting to happen in an accident. Securely placing the tank, and then developing a safe way to refill would be an engineering nightmare for very little benefit.
 
MiataNC said:
EVs are not sold outside of CA (and Oregon), because automakers are only interested in meeting state requirements for zero emissions vehicles. California requires manufacturers to sell zero-emissions vehicles on a schedule that started in 2012 and rises to 15.4 percent of new-vehicle sales by 2025.

The Chevy SparkEV (which uses the same actively heated/cooled battery system as the Volt without the extended range gas generator) is not sold outside of CA (or OR), because it is a compliance vehicle. Not because it can't handle the weather.
Click to expand...

Tesla seems sell in any state that it is allowed to sell in and in multiple countries around the world.
 
Brovane said:
Tesla seems sell in any state that it is allowed to sell in and in multiple countries around the world.
Click to expand...

Presumably, he was just referring to non-Tesla manufacturers. If so, he's almost right. They still sell Leaf's and plenty of other EV cars in other states. (Washington State, for instance)

I really am surprised by how much bullshit auto manufacturers and dealerships can pull to make it so that Tesla cannot sell in certain states. I am just floored that anyone allows that shit to pass. From what I've heard, there isn't any legit reason for it. It's basically lobbying by dealerships to fuck over the common man. Stuff like that really pisses me off when it's so blatant and obvious what is going on. (And how no one does shit about it)
 
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dguy6789 said:
I want 500 mile range, no more than 10 minute charge time, and $30k price tag. I would be fine if it was of the quality and performance of a Prius if it had those numbers.
Click to expand...

I want a blowjob every 2 hours from any chick I choose.

It has to last half an hour each and they would pay me $1K every time.

It'd be fine if I could nap after the last one too.

If not EV cars will not do, I stick with my Tesla S.
 
bigi said:
I want a blowjob every 2 hours from any chick I choose.

It has to last half an hour each and they would pay me $1K every time.

It'd be fine if I could nap after the last one too.

If not EV cars will not do, I stick with my Tesla S.
Click to expand...

Nonsense. It's not unreasonable to ask. A $20,000 gasoline car has those stats and is way faster and nicer inside than a Prius. A 50% increase in price with no benefit but fuel cost isn't setting expectations crazy high for an electric car. It doesn't matter if the technology isn't there yet, it needs to get there to be a reasonable alternative to ICE vehicles.
 
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Brovane said:
Tesla seems sell in any state that it is allowed to sell in and in multiple countries around the world.
Click to expand...

There is nothing preventing any manufacturer from selling EVs anywhere they have a market. That doesn't mean they are willing to or that they want to.

EVs cost a lot in research and development to bring to the market. Economies of scale result in huge losses until enough cars are built and sold to offset development and production costs. The only incentive any automaker has to build and sell an EV in the US is to meet zero emission requirements in the handful of states that require them.

Dealerships make more money on service than they do in sales. EVs require a LOT less maintenance. (no oil/fluid changes, brake pads wear much longer due to regenerative systems, fewer moving parts and points of failure, etc) LEAF owners typically only rotate/replace tires during the entire length of a 2-year lease. In almost every measurable way EVs equate to less money flowing into dealerships after the initial sale is made.

Companies that sell EVs beyond just meeting compliance are not doing it because it is profitable today. They are gambling/investing in the future.

Manufacturers that are building EVs for compliance reasons are keeping one foot firmly in the past, and dipping a toe in a future. If EVs take off they will have products and knowledge to compete in the market. If they don't, they can cut their losses cancel the low volume EV production.
 
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