The official Electric Car discussion thread

[Kaido]

Nice article on the Tesla S & Model T: "From crankstarting to charging: Why Tesla’s Model S is the Model T of our time"

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/a...-how-the-past-predicts-the-future-of-driving/

BMW i8 world premiere:

http://www.gizmag.com/bmw-the-i8-world-premiere/29023/

Sporting a 1.5 liter turbocharged engine of only three cylinders, the i8 is capable of taking down serious performance machines thanks to the addition of an electric motor delivering 131 hp and 184 lb.ft of torque to the front wheels. All in all the i8 develops 362 hp and 420 lb.ft of torque, which translates into the best of both worlds – 113 mpg (2.5 liter/100 km) mileage figures coupled with a 0-62 mph (100 km/h) time of 4.4 seconds.

...

The price for the i8 is will reportedly be US$135,700 when it hits US shores in the spring of 2014.

Porsche 918 Spyder plug-in hybrid drive debut: (0 to 62 in 2.8s, 880bhp engine/motors combo, $845k)

http://www.gizmag.com/porsche-918-spyder-plug-in-hybrid-drive-iaa-2013/29019/

Birò electric car's battery can be removed for charging indoors:

http://www.gizmag.com/estrima-biro-removable-battery-electric-car/29055/

Pretty interesting concept...wheel your battery inside to charge it up. That would be nice in my current workplace because we don't have any chargers at work, and the nearest plug-in charger is a town away at a restaurant.

Nissan Leaf added To Certified Used program:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1086903_nissan-leaf-electric-car-added-to-certified-used-program

To alleviate concern over the unknown future life of a used electric car, Nissan has now added its Leaf to the company's Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles program.

Starting this month, a Nissan Leaf that's certified under the program will get an extended warranty of 7 years or 100,000 miles on both the electric system and the powertrain.

Nissan Leaf cars already carry two warranties on the battery pack specifically: eight years or 100,000 miles for defects in materials or workmanship, and five years or 60,000 miles for capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the car's battery-capacity gauge.

The new warranty adds to these protections.

To be considered for the program, any used Leaf must be less than five years old, have fewer than 60,000 miles, and have at least nine of 12 bars of battery capacity remaining on the gauge.

...

The Certified Pre-Owned program also provides a Carfax vehicle-history report, and includes benefits like three free months of SiriusXM satellite radio, 24-hour emergency roadside assistance, reimbursement for car rentals, and trip-interruption coverage.

To kick off sales of used Leafs, Nissan is offering finance rates as low as 0.9 percent on 36-month loans only for Leaf electric cars bought under the Certified Pre-Owned program.

Honda Accord hybrid offers EPA rating of 50 MPG city, 45 MPG highway (47 MPG combined), 673-mile range on one tank of gas:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1086774_2014-honda-accord-hybrid-gas-mileage-47-mpg-combined

Wow, that's pretty amazing...the non-plug-in mid-sized Accord gets 50 MPG highway. Why get a Prius when you could be driving a comfortable Accord? That's pretty impressive!

Volkswagen will be the biggest electric-car maker in 2018, it says: (14 hybrids & electric models by the end of next year under their VW, Audi, and Porsche brands)

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...he-biggest-electric-car-maker-in-2018-it-says

I am excited to see more "real cars" like the Accord become hybrids with major MPG improvements. Previously the Prius was pretty much the go-to car for crazy-high mileage, but now you can get a fairly normal car and not be stuck with the eco-hippie status the Prius includes (to be fair, I do like the Prius).

The Chevy Spark EV ($19k after tax rebate) has pretty much made the price issue moot in my book ($19k + no gas = low monthly TCO!!), so the next big thing will be increasing range. I think a longer range will be more important than fast recharging, because a nationwide rollout of electric chargers (and standards) is going to be slow. I don't think an 80-mile range with a 5-minute charging time will sell as well as a 300-mile range with an 8-hour charging time, for one because of the range anxiety thing, and two because you'd still have to stop somewhere to charge up. Right now it's a hassle - every time I've tried to charge up my buddy's EV, someone else is already on the charger, so I have to wait. I'd rather have a really long charge time that I could do overnight with a pretty decent range than vice-versa. Plus, 300+ miles is at least 4 hours of driving at 75 MPG, and not many people do that much driving in one day on a regular basis, especially when you cut that figure in half for cold-weather power drops, and factor in range anxiety as the mileage meter ticks down to zero.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

It's really awesome starting to see the see the development of performance hybrids. Though as expected, their price tag is going to be quite high to start. I'll settle for an A3 or A5 e-tron, in 2020. They just might be priced reasonably then.

 

[Kaido]

It's really awesome starting to see the see the development of performance hybrids. Though as expected, their price tag is going to be quite high to start. I'll settle for an A3 or A5 e-tron, in 2020. They just might be priced reasonably then.

Yeah seriously, the BMW i8 looks pretty nice, and I never thought I'd see a Porsche 918 Spyder plug-in haha. But then, I never thought I'd see an automatic-only line of Porsches either

 

[bigi]

Hawt

$2,000,000 and change to start.

Watch me

 

[Kaido]

Tesla Model S EVs have driven 3.2M miles on Supercharger power:

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/09/23/tesla-model-s-evs-have-driven-3-2m-miles-on-supercharger-power/

Ford EV and PHEV buyers have logged 30 million all-electric miles in the Ford Fusion Energi and C-MAX Energi; every 10 days, Ford customers drive approximately 1 million miles on electricity alone:

http://www.technologytell.com/in-ca...-charging-network-customers-log-30m-ev-miles/

 

[Kaido]

Hawt

$2,000,000 and change to start.

Watch me

Wow...it's like a Tesla S married to a new Camaro with a Corvette lovechild...and then melted down a bit to make it curvy & low...

 

[Kaido]

You know, I have grown to like the Tesla S's looks. In passing, it looks like an oversized Ford Fusion, or perhaps a Jaguar at the right angle. Personally I like the looks, but it's also non-descript enough that you could drive it around in a lot of areas without getting a lot of attention, at least if you get one in white or gray. The black does look pretty dang nice, the area surround me now has a white, gray, and black one (we don't get too many cool cars, so they do stand out to me!). I'd imagine a red one would be much more of a head-turner, but if you're into the car for the electric appeal & performance aspects rather than the attention-getting aspects, this is probably the right car for you to get.

 

[bigi]

Wow...it's like a Tesla S married to a new Camaro with a Corvette lovechild...and then melted down a bit to make it curvy & low...

Those were his earlier efforts with modified BMW. Good start indeed. Now the concept one.

 

[Kaido]

Those were his earlier efforts with modified BMW. Good start indeed. Now the concept one.

Oh man, they should sell older-model BMW's with electric kits like that, that's awesome

 

[Kaido]

The 2014 Kia Soul EV is official, although it will only be in selected markets (probably west coast):

http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/02/kia-soul-ev-in-the-us/

KIA MOTORS ANNOUNCES PLANS FOR FIRST All-ELECTRIC VEHICLE IN THE UNITED STATES

Electrified Version of the All-New Soul Urban Passenger Vehicle Scheduled to Arrive in 2014

- Kia's first EV in the U.S. will combine the Soul's funky and iconic design with new styling cues aimed at improving aerodynamics and distinguishing it from non-EV Souls
- Soul EV will be powered exclusively by a battery for gas-free driving and zero emissions
- Images of the Soul EV will be release closer to launch

Minneapolis, Oct. 1, 2013 – At the media launch of the all-new 2014 Soul, Kia Motors America (KMA) today announced plans to offer an all-electric version of the company's iconic Soul urban passenger vehicle in select markets in 2014. Already one of KMA's best-selling vehicles, an all-electric variant is a natural extension of the Soul's urban-friendly place in the brand's lineup of award-winning vehicles. More details about the Soul EV's powertrain, range/MPGe, packaging and go-to-market strategy will be announced at an upcoming major U.S. auto show.

"Eco-consciousness already comes standard on the all-new Soul with 85-percent of its materials able to be recycled at the end of its lifespan, and the Soul EV will further demonstrate Kia's engineering capabilities as well as our commitment to producing vehicles with reduced environmental footprints," said Orth Hedrick, executive director of product planning, KMA. "The Soul has always been a terrific choice for drivers in urban environments, and the all-new version's blend of technology, refinement, style, improved dynamics and value has allowed us to create a car that is as efficient as it is fun to drive."

Kia Motors was recently ranked by Interbrand as one of the "50 Best Global Green Brands," and Soul EV will be the second alternative-fuel Kia vehicle to be offered for sale in the U.S. The award-winning Optima Hybrid was introduced in 2011 and for 2013 sees a number of enhancements including numerous powertrain refinements for smoothness and drivability, including a more robust 47 HP electric traction motor, a stronger Hybrid Starter Generator (HSG) and a more powerful 47 kW Lithium Polymer battery.

Kia: One of the World's Fastest Moving Global Automotive Brands
Kia Motors America is one of only three auto brands to increase U.S. sales in each of the past four years, and in 2012 the company surpassed the 500,000 unit mark for the first time. With a full line of fun-to-drive cars and CUVs, Kia is advancing value to new levels of sophistication by combining European-influenced styling – under the guidance of chief design officer Peter Schreyer – with cutting-edge technologies, premium amenities, affordable pricing and the lowest cost of ownership in the industry. Kia recently moved up in the exclusive ranking of Interbrand's "Top 100 Best Global Brands" after joining the list for the first time last year, and the company is poised to continue its momentum with seven all-new or significantly redesigned vehicles scheduled to arrive in showrooms in 2013. Over the past decade Kia Motors has invested more than $1.4 billion in the U.S., including the company's first U.S. assembly plant in West Point, Georgia – Kia Motors Manufacturing Georgia – which is responsible for the creation of more than 14,000 plant and supplier jobs. The success of the U.S.-built* Optima and Sorento in two of the industry's largest segments has fueled Kia's rapid growth and is complemented by Kia's comprehensive lineup which includes the Cadenza flagship sedan, Soul urban passenger vehicle, Sportage compact CUV, Optima Hybrid, the Forte sedan, Forte5, and Forte Koup compacts, Rio and Rio 5-door sub-compacts and the Sedona minivan.

About Kia Motors America
Kia Motors America is the marketing and distribution arm of Kia Motors Corporation based in Seoul, South Korea. KMA offers a complete line of vehicles through more than 765 dealers throughout the United States and serves as the "Official Automotive Partner" of the NBA and LPGA. In 2012, KMA recorded its best-ever annual sales total and gained U.S. market share for the 18th consecutive year. Kia is poised to continue its momentum and will continue to build the brand through design innovation, quality, value, advanced safety features and new technologies.

Information about Kia Motors America and its full vehicle line-up is available at its website – www.kia.com. For media information, including photography, visit www.kiamedia.com. To receive custom email notifications for press releases the moment they are published, subscribe at http://www.kiamedia.com/us/en/newsalert.

* The Sorento and Optima GDI (EX Trims and certain LX Trims only) and GDI Turbo are built in the United States from U.S. and globally sourced parts.

 

[Kaido]

There's still no official specs on the Kia Soul EV, but the rumor floating around is 124 miles. I would feel a lot more comfortable on 124 miles than 82 miles (more or less standard on the other EV models) for my particular commute, which is typically 40 to 50 miles, because even in cold-weather where the battery can drop to 50% capacity, 60 miles is still a nice enough range where I'd have a bit of a buffer for delays and rerouting, and there is an emergency charger at the halfway point in my commute if needed. Sign me up! Unfortunately my local sales guy said we're not going to see them here on the east coast anytime soon

 

[Kaido]

A lot of buzz going around a recent Tesla Model S accident where the car caught on fire:

http://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-fiery-tesla-model-s-death-looks-like-1440143525

Cause is unclear - reports are conflicting, so we'll have to wait until an official analysis is released (apparently the car struck a large metallic object, but what actually caused the fire hasn't been determined yet). What's interesting is that Tesla is on track to sell 21,000 Model S cars this year, with 3.2 million miles driven just off the free Supercharger power alone, and this is the very first report of a fire. Compare that with an annual average over over 250,000 car fires per year on ICE vehicles: (curious as to the number of ICE cars on the road, though - for comparative statistics)

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v9i1.pdf

Also, the driver got out of the car safely, completely unharmed. Tesla's statement so far:

“Yesterday, a Model S collided with a large metallic object in the middle of the road, causing significant damage to the vehicle. The car’s alert system signaled a problem and instructed the driver to pull over safely, which he did. No one was injured, and the sole occupant had sufficient time to exit the vehicle safely and call the authorities. Subsequently, a fire caused by the substantial damage sustained during the collision was contained to the front of the vehicle thanks to the design and construction of the vehicle and battery pack. All indications are that the fire never entered the interior cabin of the car. It was extinguished on-site by the fire department.”

Anxious to see what the cause of the fire was. Within the car itself, it could be the EV battery or the 12V battery, or perhaps the battery coolant fluid. I'm curious to see what the root cause was, especially if it was system-related, because what if you hit something larger like a semi-truck and breach more of the battery system?

 

[Kaido]

Ah, Forbes has a good article on the fire:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrog...-can-catch-fire-but-keeping-cool-is-in-order/

Cars catch fire on the highway surprisingly often, 187,500 times in 2011 in fact. There are a bit more than 250 million registered vehicles in the U.S., giving any car approximately a 1 in 1500 chance of being on fire in a given year. By contrast, you’ve only got a 1 in 3000 chance of being struck by lightning in your lifetime, and those odds fall to 1 in 700,000 per year. So this puts the car fire risk in perspective: It’s actually quite high. Yet, with around 20,000 Teslas on the road, this is apparently the first such incident of one catching fire. Given that the Model S is new, that isn’t shocking. It’s more likely an older car will catch fire than a recent model. But it seems so far, it’s also far more likely a gas-powered vehicle will catch fire than an electric — leaking gasoline is more combustible.

Okay, 20,000:1 vs. 1500:1 ratio of EV vs. ICE car fires. Sounds reasonable haha. A lot of these articles I'm reading are acting like electric cars are supposed to be bulletproof machines, instead of just a mechanical system designed by humans which can still run into things at very high speeds with bad results.

And that’s why Tesla spokesperson Liz Jarvis-Shean was talking about the incident yesterday. ”This was not a spontaneous event,” Jarvis-Shean said. “Every indication we have at this point is that the fire was a result of the collision and the damage sustained through that.” Tesla confirmed that the battery did catch fire.

So what we know:

1. A Tesla Model S hit a large metallic object in the road
2. The damage to the car caused the battery to catch fire
3. The car's warning system had the driver pull over & get out unharmed, fortunately

Another article with more details:

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2013/10/03/tesla-says-car-fire-began-in-battery-after-crash/

I am curious to see exactly what happened. It apparently reignited after being extinguished and they weren't able to access the battery from the undercarriage on a lift. What's even more interesting is that the Model S just passed the NHTSA's crash testing with flying colors (and no fires). And as the Tesla rep pointed out, the battery didn't spontaneously combust; the car was damaged, which kicked off the fire. Hopefully we'll get more information soon!

 

[JCH13]

The whole "gasoline is more combustible than a battery" argument is REALLY stupid. Gasoline can't ignite itself, unlike a battery pack. It's a hasty statement with little or no thought (let alone technical thought) behind it.

Another thing to consider is that many ICE cars are much older than most EVs, especially the model S. Aging components, poor maintenance, ancient designs, and year of rust, abuse, and accumulated damage would logically result in more incidents of fire in older vehicles. Are you really trying to compare a group of cars that include carburetor fueled vehicles from the 1950s to a top brand of EVs from the last few years?

Furthermore, it is most irrational to compare a single brand of EV to EVERY brand of ICE. For example, Daewoo made cars (it lasted a day, woo!) is it really sensible to include the positively shittiest ICE brands with the singular best EV brand?

Finally, those statistics are ultimately meaningless without an adjustment 'per passenger mile' on top of everything else I outlined.

I'm just trying to point out how dangerously out of context the various quoted articles are mentioning various 'facts' and statistics. It's very irresponsible IMO.

 

[Kaido]

The whole "gasoline is more combustible than a battery" argument is REALLY stupid. Gasoline can't ignite itself, unlike a battery pack. It's a hasty statement with little or no thought (let alone technical thought) behind it.

Another thing to consider is that many ICE cars are much older than most EVs, especially the model S. Aging components, poor maintenance, ancient designs, and year of rust, abuse, and accumulated damage would logically result in more incidents of fire in older vehicles. Are you really trying to compare a group of cars that include carburetor fueled vehicles from the 1950s to a top brand of EVs from the last few years?

Furthermore, it is most irrational to compare a single brand of EV to EVERY brand of ICE. For example, Daewoo made cars (it lasted a day, woo!) is it really sensible to include the positively shittiest ICE brands with the singular best EV brand?

Finally, those statistics are ultimately meaningless without an adjustment 'per passenger mile' on top of everything else I outlined.

I'm just trying to point out how dangerously out of context the various quoted articles are mentioning various 'facts' and statistics. It's very irresponsible IMO.

It makes for good headline reading tho! :awe:

Not being argumentative here, just discussing: as pointed out in the article above, the Tesla battery didn't self-combust, it was ignited via damage from a collision with another object. It is also the first Tesla fire that is publicly acknowledged. Also, the statistics for gas cars exist because the cars do exist in America's inventory, so even if it's not a direct comparison, the numbers are still the numbers - so even though saying it's safer to be in a brand-new electric car than an older gas car is ridiculous because obviously the safety technology & requirements have advanced over the years, it's also still true.

But yeah, it's all bogus reporting. And nothing is more fun than saying "See! See! Electric cars will catch on fire and kill your family!" Sure, because there's no such thing as a perfect, bulletproof system, you can still get in an accident, your car can still catch on fire, and you can still lose your car or your life. That's reality, Media!

 

[Kaido]

Furthermore, it is most irrational to compare a single brand of EV to EVERY brand of ICE. For example, Daewoo made cars (it lasted a day, woo!) is it really sensible to include the positively shittiest ICE brands with the singular best EV brand?

An excellent point. Even GM had to release a fix for the Volt to make it safer:

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/21/business/la-fi-autos-volt-20120121

General Motors Co. is making modifications to the Volt because of a series of fires after test crashes of the plug-in hybrid vehicle. The fires were caused by a coolant leak that occurred when the car's battery pack was punctured during severe side test crashes by NHTSA.

The fires occurred hours to weeks after the tests as the coolant leaked and eventually created a short circuit.

To me, that's even scarier - what if you tow it to a yard and a few hours later it just randomly catches on fire? What the heck? I've never heard of that happening on an ICE vehicle!

 

[JCH13]

It makes for good headline reading tho! :awe:

Not being argumentative here, just discussing: as pointed out in the article above, the Tesla battery didn't self-combust, it was ignited via damage from a collision with another object. It is also the first Tesla fire that is publicly acknowledged. Also, the statistics for gas cars exist because the cars do exist in America's inventory, so even if it's not a direct comparison, the numbers are still the numbers - so even though saying it's safer to be in a brand-new electric car than an older gas car is ridiculous because obviously the safety technology & requirements have advanced over the years, it's also still true.

But yeah, it's all bogus reporting. And nothing is more fun than saying "See! See! Electric cars will catch on fire and kill your family!" Sure, because there's no such thing as a perfect, bulletproof system, you can still get in an accident, your car can still catch on fire, and you can still lose your car or your life. That's reality, Media!

It is true, but it's not a reasonable comparison, and very misleading.

To take another example, it is factually accurate to say that in 1921 ~13,000 people died in traffic incidents, and in 2003 ~43,000 died in traffic incidents. The erroneous implication is that traffic fatalities have tripled in the intervening 82 years. However, when VMT (vehicle miles traveled) is considered we find the fatality rate actually dropped significantly, from ~24 deaths/million miles to ~1.5 deaths/million miles.

http://www.saferoads.org/federal/2004/TrafficFatalities1899-2003.pdf

Not to mention the statistical insignificance of 20k cars compared to 250M, 5 orders of magnitude difference, 0.008% of the number of cars.

 

[Kaido]

It is true, but it's not a reasonable comparison, and very misleading.

To take another example, it is factually accurate to say that in 1921 ~13,000 people died in traffic incidents, and in 2003 ~43,000 died in traffic incidents. The erroneous implication is that traffic fatalities have tripled in the intervening 82 years. However, when VMT (vehicle miles traveled) is considered we find the fatality rate actually dropped significantly, from ~24 deaths/million miles to ~1.5 deaths/million miles.

http://www.saferoads.org/federal/2004/TrafficFatalities1899-2003.pdf

Not to mention the statistical insignificance of 20k cars compared to 250M, 5 orders of magnitude difference, 0.008% of the number of cars.

Hyperloop is sounding good right now

http://www.dilbert.com/dyn/str_stri...100000/90000/7000/900/197954/197954.strip.gif

 

[JCH13]

Hyperloop is sounding good right now

http://www.dilbert.com/dyn/str_stri...100000/90000/7000/900/197954/197954.strip.gif

Indeed! :awe:

 

[Kaido]

Indeed! :awe:

Seriously though:

1. Hyperloop between cities
2. Self-driving electric cars in the cities
3. Wireless chargers in parking lots

Shoot across the country in less time than it takes to fly via the Hyperloop, or just from city to city like a monorail. Keep it running all day instead of just random flight times. Then create a Zipcar system with self-driving electric cars. Bosch already has a wireless charger out for the Leaf, so the cars could drop you off at your destination and then head to a designated charging area:

http://www.pluginnow.com/plugless

Although they've been talking about converting old public telephone booths into street chargers:

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/14/could-outmoded-phone-booths-become-e-v-charging-stations/

Lots of neat stuff that could be done with funding!

 

[Raghu]

Hawt

$2,000,000 and change to start.

Watch me

That car can steer without moving its front wheels to the left or right!

I wonder why hybrids (like the Fisker Karma) have such big engines. They should be able to charge their batteries even with a small 1L turbo petrol running at peak efficiency and power.

 

[JCH13]

Think about how those hybrid systems are setup, and how slowly battery packs actually charge.

 

[Kaido]

That car can steer without moving its front wheels to the left or right!

I wonder why hybrids (like the Fisker Karma) have such big engines. They should be able to charge their batteries even with a small 1L turbo petrol running at peak efficiency and power.

I still don't see why we don't have diesel-hybrids. The VW EA288 engine coming out next year is 46 MPG highway, can you imagine coupling that with a battery system?? Other than killing existing hybrid/efficient car sales & being really expensive, I don't see why not :awe: Good article here:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/h...rk-and-why-they-aren-t-on-sale-yet-20472.html

In 2008, Volkswagen revealed the Golf TDI Hybrid concept, which used a 1.2-liter three cylinder common rail diesel engine and an electric motor. The diesel developed 74 horsepower and 132 lb-ft of torque (178.76 Nm), while the electric motor added 27 horsepower and 103 lb-ft (139.49 Nm). The car’s average mpg is 69 mpg (3.4 liters/100 km) in the European fuel economy test cycle, according to Volkswagen. Much better than Toyota Prius' 54 mpg (4.35 liters/100 km).

Nearly 70 MPG? Yes please!

 

[thedarkwolf]

Because hybrid $$$$ + diesel $$$$ = $$$$$$$$

 

[Kaido]

Because hybrid $$$$ + diesel $$$$ = $$$$$$$$

"Yeah it's $80,000, but it'll save gas!" :awe: