The NRA is some evil, lying, no good corporate lobbyist group right?

[Moonbeam]

Cute, comparing owning a human being to owning a multipurpose inanimate object.

The simple fact is that living in this country without guns just isn't going to happen. If I could snap my fingers and make every firearm, and knowledge about them, in the world disappear, I might snap away but, that isn't going to happen. Now we are left with a couple possibilities, we can disarm law-abiding citizens through law, and hope that maybe within a couple hundred years all the guns in the country are accounted for and gone, and during that time as few defenseless law-abiding civilians are murdered by the criminals that aren't going to follow the law, to make it worth it, or we continued to allow law-abiding citizens the right to arm themselves as they see fit. I am going with the latter.

I didn't say what I'm going with. I finished my remarks with a question, "But there is one other issue at stake, would it be better or worse if we tried to take guns away.", which opens the door to all your points.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

It isn't multi-purpose any more than food is a multipurpose item. It is designed specifically to kill.

It is designed specifically to kill, and thus is used either to kill or to present the threat of killing.

Guns are most used for target/sports shooting, defense, and killing people, in that order.

 

[Moonbeam]

CharlesKozierok: If you want to take away guns, it's easy. Pass a constitutional amendment repealing the second and specifically removing the personal right to bear arms.

M: As I said, I am neither pro nor anti gun. I am commenting on how I see the positions and attitudes people with bias take.

CK: Oh, what's that? You'd never get it through Congress, much less get the states to ratify it?

M: I agree. But I am not talking about today. I am talking about a trend in the polls, the growth in the movement of people who would support such an amendment. I gave a prediction with a warning to gun absolutists that some respect for the opinions of the other side might be in order, that the absolute refusal to budge on any gun legislation could get folk to thinking gun nuts are intransigent assholes who need to be crushed. I'm doing my analysis of the autonomic amoeba that stumbles along in the dark over the gun issue, moved here and there by emotion rather than reason.

CK: Show me the gun equivalent of the 13th amendment, and then maybe your analogy will have some validity. Until then, it's bullshit.

M: Since I don't think you understand what I'm saying and have no idea what analogy you envision, I also don't see any connection to some need for validation. Again I am looking at trends. My comments were directed at how I see the attitude of the pro gun folk today and here in these gun threads working against their own desires.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

M: As I said, I am neither pro nor anti gun.

Oh, of course not. I have no idea what gave me the idea you were anti-gun. 🙂

M: I agree. But I am not talking about today. I am talking about a trend in the polls, the growth in the movement of people who would support such an amendment.

I see growth in support for certain measures, but certainly nothing even remotely approaching what would be necessary to remove gun rights altogether.

I gave a prediction with a warning to gun absolutists that some respect for the opinions of the other side might be in order, that the absolute refusal to budge on any gun legislation could get folk to thinking gun nuts are intransigent assholes who need to be crushed.

You did a lot more than that. You actually said those people were "assholes".

I think you know very well that the odds of anyone taking your "advice" are close to zero, especially when presented in that manner. I furthermore think you really don't care at all.

I'm doing my analysis of the autonomic amoeba that stumbles along in the dark over the gun issue, moved here and there by emotion rather than reason.

You mean all the people reflexively calling for assault weapon bans and other showy but basically ineffective measures? I agree. Definitely moved by emotion rather than reason.

 

[xj0hnx]

Notice how this guy added "or killed" when talking about violent crime, as if it is somehow the majority of his stats? Notice how he tries to equate a fistfight including crime statistic with a statistic specifically about using a highly efficient machine made specifically for killing?

Then he tries projection/insults.

This is why the US political system is in shambles.

Notice how this guy tries to portray gun violence as if it is somehow worse then being beaten to death with a bat, or stabbed to death with a knife? Notice how he tries to deflect away from reality to zero in on his agenda of choice, ignoring higher violent crime rates as long as they don't involve a gun?

Then he tries projection and insults.

This is why the US political system is in shambles.

Now what dummy?

Your entire argument is contrary to reality. People like you are the reason that the gun control crowd can't get traction even in the wake of a mass shooting. Your complete ignorance, and agenda is so transparent it's comical.

 

[xj0hnx]

It isn't multi-purpose any more than food is a multipurpose item. It is designed specifically to kill. You could use food to throw at people, but that doesn't make it mtuli-purpose. Do you really think ANYONE with a brain thinks that a gun is "multi-purpose"? You could keep repeating something absolutely ludicrous.. but it only reflects your willingness to be blatantly dishonest.

It most certainly is multi purpose. Hunting, self defense, home defense, target practice, sporting events, etc ...Only the most disingenuous of fools would say otherwise.

 

[Moonbeam]

CharlesKozierok: I never called you an asshole. I said you were acting like one.

An assessment based on behavior.

M: I never even called them assholes. I was talking about what would happen if the population at large came see them as such, based, of course, on their behavior.

CK: You called tens of millions of law-abiding citizens assholes for no reason other than owning guns.

An assessment based on prejudice.

M: Oh dear. I warned that millions of gun owners are in danger of being stereotyped as assholes because a very visible number of their ranks exhibit what most people regard as an asshole attitude to rational compromise and reasonable attention to the concerns of the anti-gun population and that if they persist in it their insanity will be met with the same.

CK: If you're back to the stupid word games, and jumping in to every thread to flame conservatives left and right without any justification, then I guess I'll have to put you back on ignore. Your posts are starting to resemble cybrsage's, only politically reversed -- and that's not a good thing.

M: One night Mulla Nasrudin lay awake in his bed as thieves lay in wait outside his window for him to fall asleep and they could enter undetected. But the Mulla lay there praying aloud to Allah! "Oh Allah spare me from the torment of this monster that haunts me, this horrible Dib Dib, release me from it's terrible grasp. Oh Allah spare me from this vicious torture" and on and on in a similar vein. It was no time at all before the thieves had worked themselves into a fit of anxiety that if they were to enter this terrible creature would turn its attention to them. They were off the roof and down the street running as fast as they could go in but moments. Thus it was that Mulla Nasrudin was saved by the drip of his faucet.

 

[ultimatebob]

The sad thing is that NRA saves more lives with their gun safety training classes than any legislation coming out of congress this year will... and the liberal media still makes them out to be the evil bad guys. 🙁

 

[shadow9d9]

Notice how this guy tries to portray gun violence as if it is somehow worse then being beaten to death with a bat, or stabbed to death with a knife? Notice how he tries to deflect away from reality to zero in on his agenda of choice, ignoring higher violent crime rates as long as they don't involve a gun?

Then he tries projection and insults.

This is why the US political system is in shambles.

Now what dummy?

Your entire argument is contrary to reality. People like you are the reason that the gun control crowd can't get traction even in the wake of a mass shooting. Your complete ignorance, and agenda is so transparent it's comical.

More insults after a really, really poor attempt at an argument?

The violence statistics are NOT all deadly.. so stop trying to pretend that it is. Therefore, the stats are NOT relevant, since gun deaths are deaths. Try again. This time though, only attempt it if you could make it through a post without petty insults.

 

[shadow9d9]

It most certainly is multi purpose. Hunting, self defense, home defense, target practice, sporting events, etc ...Only the most disingenuous of fools would say otherwise.

The PURPOSE is to kill. It can be USED for some other things... just like food could be used to throw at people.

 

[shadow9d9]

The sad thing is that NRA saves more lives with their gun safety training classes than any legislation coming out of congress this year will... and the liberal media still makes them out to be the evil bad guys. 🙁

There are no liberals outside of vermont in this country.. just the middle/right democrats.

Since the republicans are breaking records with fillibusters, even attempting to block domestic violence protection for women.. yeah, no surprise not much good will get through congress.

So much for bias... http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...company-all-discussions-of-media-bias/257961/

 

[Charles Kozierok]

M: I never even called them assholes.

Yes, you did. "You assholes will bring about what you fear." That's why I responded as I did.

M: One night Mulla Nasrudin lay awake in his bed as thieves lay in wait outside his window for him to fall asleep and they could enter undetected. But the Mulla lay there praying aloud to Allah! "Oh Allah spare me from the torment of this monster that haunts me, this horrible Dib Dib, release me from it's terrible grasp. Oh Allah spare me from this vicious torture" and on and on in a similar vein. It was no time at all before the thieves had worked themselves into a fit of anxiety that if they were to enter this terrible creature would turn its attention to them. They were off the roof and down the street running as fast as they could go in but moments. Thus it was that Mulla Nasrudin was saved by the drip of his faucet.

Great story. What it has to do with the topic at hand -- or even this side-topic -- is utterly beyond me.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

The PURPOSE is to kill.

In some situations, yes. In others, the purpose is a deterrent -- the gun is only shot if absolutely necessary, and the goal is to not have to use it.

 

[Moonbeam]

M: As I said, I am neither pro nor anti gun.

CK: Oh, of course not. I havee no idea what gave me the idea you were anti-gun.

M: You did. You assumed that I am anti gun because I criticized the attitude of hard core pro gun people without claiming to be on the side of more normal pro gun people as would befit a person who isn't pro gun. I hav taken the position I have because, in my opinion, the anti gun folk are up in arms about the attitude of the NRA and are becoming anti gun as a result coupled with the doubling down of the folk here who mirror that same no compromise attitude. I am saying that people create what they fear and gun nuts fear the loss of the right to bear arms. Their fear will cause that wish to materialize. This isn't really different than Republican extremism causing them to lose elections, or a hard line Israel creating an implacable enemy.
-----------------------
M: I agree. But I am not talking about today. I am talking about a trend in the polls, the growth in the movement of people who would support such an amendment.

CK: I see growth in support for certain measures, but certainly nothing even remotely approaching what would be necessary to remove gun rights altogether.

M: Shouldn't be that hard if you assume continued growth.
------------------------
M: I gave a prediction with a warning to gun absolutists that some respect for the opinions of the other side might be in order, that the absolute refusal to budge on any gun legislation could get folk to thinking gun nuts are intransigent assholes who need to be crushed.

CK: You did a lot more than that. You actually said those people were "assholes".

M: Nope, I said that they would come to be seen that way just as so many today think Republicans are stupid. I then used the word assholes to refer back to whom would be seen that way. I know what my words meant because I wrote them. Since you can think anything you want, you choose to call them games. I know what I was saying.
-----------------------
CK: I think you know very well that the odds of anyone taking your "advice" are close to zero, especially when presented in that manner. I furthermore think you really don't care at all.

M: The answer to a fool is silence. Experience tells us that any other answer will in the long run have the same effect. The moment you care you become subject to ego and bias. On the death of his son a Zen master wrote these words.

This little world
It may be only a dew drop
And yet, and yet

You can do nothing but eat these words: Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
---------------
M: I'm doing my analysis of the autonomic amoeba that stumbles along in the dark over the gun issue, moved here and there by emotion rather than reason.

CK: You mean all the people reflexively calling for assault weapon bans and other showy but basically ineffective measures? I agree. Definitely moved by emotion rather than reason.

M: Exactly but you miss the vital point, I think. It isn't the fact that they are irrational that matters, but the fact that they move. Not liking the reasons that they do will change nothing. It isn't logic that moves most people but emotion. You want people to reason, I want them to know they are irrational because they don't know what they feel. It's no surprise to me that the what, the 'form of my mentation', cause folk to react.

 

[xj0hnx]

More insults after a really, really poor attempt at an argument?

The violence statistics are NOT all deadly.. so stop trying to pretend that it is. Therefore, the stats are NOT relevant, since gun deaths are deaths. Try again. This time though, only attempt it if you could make it through a post without petty insults.

You and your obtuse evasion of reality deserve nothing more than mockery. Not all gun statistics are deadly ...so stop trying to pretend that they are. Deaths are deaths, whether they are by gun, knife, bat, fist, whatever. Stop trying to pretend the only violent crimes are committed with firearms. The simple fact that you keep ignoring is that even in places where guns are outlawed there is still more violent crime. The difference is I don't want anyone to be beaten, shot, stabbed, or raped, you seem to not care as long as it isn't done with a gun.

 

[xj0hnx]

It can be USED for some other things.

Yes, therefore it has multiple purposes.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

A guard stands outside a jewelery store. He wears a gun in a holster, prominently displayed on his hip.

What is the primary purpose of that gun?

 

[LunarRay]

It isn't multi-purpose any more than food is a multipurpose item. It is designed specifically to kill. You could use food to throw at people, but that doesn't make it mtuli-purpose. Do you really think ANYONE with a brain thinks that a gun is "multi-purpose"? You could keep repeating something absolutely ludicrous.. but it only reflects your willingness to be blatantly dishonest.

I don't think I follow your point.... Assuming I've a brain.... if just for this post...

It seems that if there is more than one objective to be met and one tool can facilitate the needs of those objectives then the tool is multi-purpose to the extent the objectives are dissimilar. Perhaps as an example we can speak to guns. Say an assault weapon, an M16... That weapon does meet the objective of hunting within the parameters of the bullet capability as well as being a pretty good defensive weapon and one that could defend against an invasion plus if you'd be interested in target shooting it can meet that objective too. As far as I can tell these are reasonably dissimilar objectives... They seem to be legal objectives as well....

Now then...
It is true that some folks have as an objective an illegal act and choose to use the same weapon a legal abiding folk would use for his... That condition ought not render the tool of the legal thinker universally undesirable or illegal. The criminal might use the same tool to enhance the illegality of the crime he might commit but that is a case of legality versus illegality... the Person is the criminal and I'd wager the criminal don't give two hoots in hell about that aspect. Someone hell bent on massive destruction of human life can use any number of insane methods to effect their objective... and we've made illegal many that I can think of... BUT, there is no Right to assemble a bomb or create some poison substance to pour in the drinking water or as far as I can tell any other like method. There is a Constitutional provision for owning and bearing arms though. One that I feel requires an Amendment to alter.

Edit: Consider the folks who want an Amendment to ban Abortion and Gay Marriage or even the ERA that did not get ratified.... lots of Rights wanting being taken away or denied.

 

[shadow9d9]

Yes, therefore it has multiple purposes.

Great. Food can be used to throw at people, therefore food's purpose isn't to feed. This is why the US is becoming a laughing stock. You can't even begin a real discussion when dealing with people obsessed with killing machines.

 

[shadow9d9]

A guard stands outside a jewelery store. He wears a gun in a holster, prominently displayed on his hip.

What is the primary purpose of that gun?

To kill people. Guns were created to kill.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

To kill people.

So the jewelery store hired him to kill people?

Funny, I thought they would have hired him to deter thieves, and only use the gun as a last resort.

There are far more defensives uses of guns each year than people killed by them. So how can killing be the "primary use"?

 

[shadow9d9]

You and your obtuse evasion of reality deserve nothing more than mockery. Not all gun statistics are deadly ...so stop trying to pretend that they are. Deaths are deaths, whether they are by gun, knife, bat, fist, whatever. Stop trying to pretend the only violent crimes are committed with firearms. The simple fact that you keep ignoring is that even in places where guns are outlawed there is still more violent crime. The difference is I don't want anyone to be beaten, shot, stabbed, or raped, you seem to not care as long as it isn't done with a gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Guns KILL 40x more people here than in the UK.

People are trying to compare this to "violent crime" in general... NOT violent crime that causes death.

This is why it is a ridiculous comparison.

You keep making purposely misleading comparisons and then try to make utterly assinine statements like "I don't want anyone to be beaten, shot, stabbed, or raped, you seem to not care as long as it isn't done with a gun."

Show your statistics about the violent crime rate that leads to death in the UK vs us. Til then, shut the fuck up.

 

[shadow9d9]

So the jewelery store hired him to kill people?

Funny, I thought they would have hired him to deter thieves, and only use the gun as a last resort.

There are far more defensives uses of guns each year than people killed by them. So how can killing be the "primary use"?

Funny, yet you are wrong. The purpose is to kill.

Amazing that for SUCH a defensive weapon, that we have 40x the amount of gun related deaths than the UK! Great argument! They must all be defense related! Who'd of thunk!

Show your proof of "more defensive uses" than people killed by them.

 

[LunarRay]

A guard stands outside a jewelery store. He wears a gun in a holster, prominently displayed on his hip.

What is the primary purpose of that gun?

Hopefully to disabuse a criminal from the notion that robbing that jewelry store is prudent.

 

[shadow9d9]

Hopefully to disabuse a criminal from the notion that robbing that jewelry store is prudent.

If that is the case, then a fake gun would have the same effect, or an unloaded gun. I am SURE it is unloaded, because the purpose is DEFINITELY NOT to kill!