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The Not-So-Secret History of Filibusters

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Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
In addition to the transparent dishonesty about tradition on page 1, CsG then offers this-

"The constitution clearly states that judicial nominees are confirmed with a simple majority - not a simple majority unless a filibuster is in place."

When called upon to quote the Constitutional demand for his statement, he merely offers an editorialized interpretation of the Constitution- not the same thing, at all.

The Constitution is quite clear about the other side of the issue, however- Article 1, section 5, clause 2-

" Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings..."

Which is precisely what the Senate has done wrt filibusters. The Founders, I suspect, never contemplated the naked power play currently envisioned by the Repub leadership, breaking the rules to change the rules... They likely figured on a much higher level of integrity than what we're seeing today...

And what part of what I linked to is not true? That's right - it's entirely true regarding what the Constitution states on Judicial nominees. You may not agree with the rest of the article dealing with the politics of the situation -but it's clear that the Constitution provides for a simple majority approval.
So yes, there is "transparent dishonesty" at play here and it is coming from folks like you who think the Constitution can be manipulated and traditions shattered. Yes, that's right - the democrats are the one breaking tradition by blocking nominees for YEARS with this fake filibuster threat game.

Continue on...

CsG
 

gallivanter

Member
May 8, 2005
141
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
In addition to the transparent dishonesty about tradition on page 1, CsG then offers this-

"The constitution clearly states that judicial nominees are confirmed with a simple majority - not a simple majority unless a filibuster is in place."

When called upon to quote the Constitutional demand for his statement, he merely offers an editorialized interpretation of the Constitution- not the same thing, at all.

The Constitution is quite clear about the other side of the issue, however- Article 1, section 5, clause 2-

" Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings..."

Which is precisely what the Senate has done wrt filibusters. The Founders, I suspect, never contemplated the naked power play currently envisioned by the Repub leadership, breaking the rules to change the rules... They likely figured on a much higher level of integrity than what we're seeing today...


As I am fully certain that the Founders never ever envisioned the abuse of tactics and power presently being employed by the opposition. Where again in the Constitution is is the filibuster? Oh that's right, it isn't, and the fall back position is that the Senate can make their own rules, which is exactly what the Republicans may do again now.

I showed you conclusively in the other thread, using the thoughts and words of the individuals involved, how the Constitutional/nuclear option is both legal and fitting, and how it was implemented on multiple occasions. If you for some strange reason continue to disbelieve what transpired in 1975, disbelieve Senators Allen and Byrd, I will ask you another question. Do we still have post-cloture filibusters in the Senate? We did.

And just to be clear, changing Senate rules only requires 51 votes. Ending debate is what takes 60 votes, though it didn't require this for the first 60+ years of our Republic.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
You were doing pretty well in the otherthread, gallivanter. This, however, merely reinforces the abusive tactics and powerplays currently employed by the majority-

"And just to be clear, changing Senate rules only requires 51 votes. Ending debate is what takes 60 votes, "

Funny, that, considering that the Senate Rules, article XXII, clearly states that it takes a 2/3 majority to achieve cloture to change the rules... 3/5 majority for other business. The 1975 compromise. Your statement is actually true, just not inclusive of all the possibilities.

As for the nuclear option being used on multiple occasions, you merely alluded to events other than the 1975 incident, and your representation of what happened in that one is slightly disingenuous, representing the ultimate compromise as what the majority actually wanted in the first place... they wanted to achieve simple majority rule, which is not what the Senate has been about for its entire modern history.

As for the whole argument wrt legislative entrenchment, it's been a feature of the Senate for a very long time, and has a tendency to lead to real compromise, something we're badly needing at the moment. I would personally much prefer it to the entrenchment of the far right in the federal appeals cort and the SCOTUS, which is really what this whole deal is all about. The people can change the composition of the legislature on a regular basis, which can't be said of the judiciary. It's no place for extremists, which is why Dems are opposing these very few nominees...

 

gallivanter

Member
May 8, 2005
141
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
You were doing pretty well in the otherthread, gallivanter. This, however, merely reinforces the abusive tactics and powerplays currently employed by the majority-

"And just to be clear, changing Senate rules only requires 51 votes. Ending debate is what takes 60 votes, "

Funny, that, considering that the Senate Rules, article XXII, clearly states that it takes a 2/3 majority to achieve cloture to change the rules... 3/5 majority for other business. The 1975 compromise. Your statement is actually true, just not inclusive of all the possibilities.

As for the nuclear option being used on multiple occasions, you merely alluded to events other than the 1975 incident, and your representation of what happened in that one is slightly disingenuous, representing the ultimate compromise as what the majority actually wanted in the first place... they wanted to achieve simple majority rule, which is not what the Senate has been about for its entire modern history.

I thought it was rather obvious that I was only referencing cloture concerning rule changes. At any rate, you are correct. As I stated, the 51 vote rule change side won back in 1975 and they achieved their desired result, 60 votes to end cloture on rule change motions. You can reasonably argue that they took a just position, decrying the Constitutionality of the filibuster, which they did, while also not completely eliminating the need for more than a simple majority to end filibusters, though they could have. I accept that point of view. However, what they did and what they could have done were both legal and successful, as illustrated by future uses of a Chair ruling and simple majority approval. To argue what the GOP may do next week or thereafter is unfair and not in the spirit that our government should operate in is perfectly reasonable and acceptable. To argue that they can not do what is being proposed, or that it is illegal, is not. The history of the Senate refutes that notion. Also remember that it is also perfectly reasonable for the other side to argue that what is being done in regards to Circuit Court judicial nominees is also unfair and not in the spirit of the intentions of the Framers. We both know what this is really about, what the bigger prize at the end of the rainbow is. I just don't think that out of hand ideological dismissals should rule the day.



Originally posted by: Jhhnn

As for the whole argument wrt legislative entrenchment, it's been a feature of the Senate for a very long time, and has a tendency to lead to real compromise, something we're badly needing at the moment. I would personally much prefer it to the entrenchment of the far right in the federal appeals cort and the SCOTUS, which is really what this whole deal is all about. The people can change the composition of the legislature on a regular basis, which can't be said of the judiciary. It's no place for extremists, which is why Dems are opposing these very few nominees...



Yes, it has been a feature for some time now, though not always. It does not mean that I have to like it, or that many others, from all ideological stripes, haven't railed against the notion. The current construct of the filibuster belies the spirit of our Constitution.

On a somewhat related note, I would not only like to see a compromise on this issue, (though a fair one representing the electoral majority the GOP now holds), I now fully expect a compromise to be reached. We will not see the Constitutional/nuclear option utilised.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Unfortunately, gallivanter, I believe that Dems have already compromised more than enough wrt the judiciary, having approved 95%+ of all Bush nominees, including many to the appeals courts. There's not much left to compromise, and Repubs haven't really offered anything other than the back of their hand... Bush could easily withdraw the nominations, replace them with more centrist candidates, which is really what would benefit the country the most.

I find it odious that the very people who so openly and partisanly exploited the Senate rules when it served their purposes are now so eager to toss them onto the trashbin of history. It speaks directly to their integrity in a way very unflattering- They'll rue the day that they do, somewhere down the road.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: loki8481

I don't really have any original thoughts to add in this post... I just think it's a good read :)
Never, before this current effort, has there been a fillibuster to keep a nominee off of a Circuit Court of Appeals. Never.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: loki8481

I don't really have any original thoughts to add in this post... I just think it's a good read :)
Never, before this current effort, has there been a fillibuster to keep a nominee off of a Circuit Court of Appeals. Never.

Oh?
In 1996 Clinton nominated Judge Richard Paez to the 9th Circuit of the United States Court of Appeals. Conservatives in Congress held up Paez's nomination for more than four years, culminating in an attempted filibuster on March 8, 2000. Bill Frist was among those who voted to filibuster Paez.
 

gallivanter

Member
May 8, 2005
141
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: loki8481

I don't really have any original thoughts to add in this post... I just think it's a good read :)
Never, before this current effort, has there been a fillibuster to keep a nominee off of a Circuit Court of Appeals. Never.

Oh?
In 1996 Clinton nominated Judge Richard Paez to the 9th Circuit of the United States Court of Appeals. Conservatives in Congress held up Paez's nomination for more than four years, culminating in an attempted filibuster on March 8, 2000. Bill Frist was among those who voted to filibuster Paez.



Attempted!

Did he receive a vote? Yes he did. Is this really so hard to comprehend?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
After FOUR years. And, Frist (Mr. holier-than-thou, "Just Us" Sunday participant, anti-filibuster blowhard) voted to actually filibuster Paez.

Why do you not see the hypocrisy?!?
 

gallivanter

Member
May 8, 2005
141
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
After FOUR years. And, Frist (Mr. holier-than-thou, "Just Us" Sunday participant, anti-filibuster blowhard) voted to actually filibuster Paez.

Why do you not see the hypocrisy?!?

I am still not sure what they mean by "voting" to filibuster, but that is beside the point. More importantly, yes I see hypocrisy, from both sides equally. That isn't the point. The point is that this truly is new territory for our nation, and regardless of the party involved, it's wrong.

For example, I thought Mr. Paez was a horrendous choice and his service has proven me correct, at least from my point of view. However, he deserved a vote once out of committee and if the whole of the Senate approved him, as they did, he deserves to sit on that wonderful Ninth Circuit Court that he now does.

I simply want the situation to be portrayed accurately.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: gallivanter
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: loki8481

I don't really have any original thoughts to add in this post... I just think it's a good read :)
Never, before this current effort, has there been a fillibuster to keep a nominee off of a Circuit Court of Appeals. Never.

Oh?
In 1996 Clinton nominated Judge Richard Paez to the 9th Circuit of the United States Court of Appeals. Conservatives in Congress held up Paez's nomination for more than four years, culminating in an attempted filibuster on March 8, 2000. Bill Frist was among those who voted to filibuster Paez.



Attempted!

Did he receive a vote? Yes he did. Is this really so hard to comprehend?

So you have no problem with the Democrats Attempting to filibuster Bush's nominees?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Heh. More of the same bullshit qualifiers- "once they're out of committee" and "equal hypocrisy from both sides" and judging a filibuster not for its intent, but on its result...

All rather convenient obfuscations of the real issues. Here's what Reid said recently-

Two weeks ago, Bill Frist and I exchanged proposals in an attempt to avert a vote on the nuclear option.

One proposal allowed for up or down votes on all but four judges - which many of us on both sides of the aisle considered to be the goal of this hyped battle over judicial nominations.

It also took the "nuclear option" off the table, which even Ken Starr said yesterday was damaging to the Senate as an institution and "amounts to an assault on the judicial branch of government." This compromise would break the gridlock over these seven judges, and allow us to get back to doing the people's business.

Senator Frist's proposal does nothing to end the judicial impasse, as it would wipe away the very checks and balances that have prevented an abuse of power for more than 200 years.

That result is unacceptable.

I still consider this confrontation entirely unnecessary and irresponsible. The White House manufactured this crisis. Since Bush took office, the Senate confirmed 208 of his judicial nominations and turned back only 10, a 95% confirmation rate. Instead of accepting that success and avoiding further divisiveness and partisanship in Washington, the President chose to pick fights instead of judges by resubmitting the names of the rejected nominees.

This fight is not about seven radical nominees; it's about clearing the way for a Supreme Court nominee who only needs 51 votes, instead of 60 votes. They want a Clarence Thomas, not a Sandra Day O'Connor or Anthony Kennedy or David Souter. George Bush wants to turn the Senate into a second House of Representatives, a rubberstamp for his right wing agenda and radical judges. That's not how America works.

I believe there are two options for avoiding the nuclear showdown, which so many of us believe is bad for the Senate, and bad for America.

But I want to be clear: we are prepared for a vote on the nuclear option. Democrats will join responsible Republicans in a vote to uphold the constitutional principle of checks and balances.

If it does come to a vote, I asked Senator Frist to allow his Republican colleagues to follow their consciences. Senator Specter recently said that Senators should be bound by Senate loyalty rather than party loyalty on a question of this magnitude. But right wing activists are threatening primary challenges against Republicans who vote against the nuclear option. Senators should not face this or any other form of retribution based on their support for the Constitution. In return, I pledge that I will place no such pressure on Democratic Senators and I urge Senator Frist to refrain from placing such pressure on Republican Senators.

I also suggest two reasonable ways to avert this constitutional crisis.

First, allow up or down votes on additional nominees, as I addressed in my proposal to Frist two weeks ago. If this is about getting judges on the courts, let's get them on the courts.

Second, allow the Senate to consider changing the rules without breaking the rules. Every one of us knows that there is a right way and a wrong way to change the rules of the Senate; the nuclear option is the wrong way. Senator Dodd will go to the floor this afternoon to expand on the way the Senate changes its rules.

I suggest that Senator Frist introduce his proposal as a resolution. If he does, we commit to moving it through the Rules Committee expeditiously and allow for a vote on the floor. It takes 67 votes to change the rules. If Senator Frist can't achieve 67 votes, then clearly the nuclear option is not in the best interest of the Senate or the nation.

Either of these options offers a path away from the precipice of the nuclear option. But if neither of these options is acceptable to you, let's vote.

Like I said, Frist doesn't have the votes, so he's beating the drum, escalating the pressure on moderate Repubs, going so far as to threaten the wayward with primary challenges...

So much for voting one's conscience, or considering the good of the Senate, the Country and the people above partisan powerplays...
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: gallivanter
Originally posted by: conjur
After FOUR years. And, Frist (Mr. holier-than-thou, "Just Us" Sunday participant, anti-filibuster blowhard) voted to actually filibuster Paez.

Why do you not see the hypocrisy?!?
I am still not sure what they mean by "voting" to filibuster, but that is beside the point. More importantly, yes I see hypocrisy, from both sides equally. That isn't the point. The point is that this truly is new territory for our nation, and regardless of the party involved, it's wrong.

For example, I thought Mr. Paez was a horrendous choice and his service has proven me correct, at least from my point of view. However, he deserved a vote once out of committee and if the whole of the Senate approved him, as they did, he deserves to sit on that wonderful Ninth Circuit Court that he now does.

I simply want the situation to be portrayed accurately.
Well, if turn about is fair play, we'll just wait another four years and give these nominees a vote. Sound fair?
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
81
HAHAHAHA,
i was listening to HAnnity's show last night and he was saying that judicial nominees have never been filibustered before. What a god damn tool...
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
81
Originally posted by: Ozoned
There is a link on on a Leahy page

titled: A List Of Republican filibusters against Judicial Nominations

Look at all them god damn Republican filibusters against Judicial Nominations.


HAHAHAHA What a god damn tool...


Never, before this current effort, has there been a fillibuster to keep a nominee off of a Circuit Court of Appeals. Never.

There has never been a filibuster to keep a nominee off of the SCOTUS. Never.


that's not what hannity said,
I was listening to his show last night.

, Hannity declared that "this is the first time in history that this has been used against nominees that would be confirmed." I heard that with my own ears.


here
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Dood,

It's an opinion piece by a former leader of the senate citing cold hard facts on GOP filibusters that you and the GOP are now trying to tell everyone never happened.

Just another example of the GOP's lack of ethics. One set of rules for the rest of the world and another set for the GOP. All laid down by the GOP.

What a bunch of serial hypocrites.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
The Top 10 Most Ridiculous Judicial Filibuster Defenses

Part of a Statement of Orrin G. Hatch
United States Senate
May 10, 2005


The Top 10 Most Ridiculous Judicial Filibuster Defenses. Time
permits only brief treatment, but then it was difficult to limit the list to ten.
Number 10
is the claim that these filibusters are part of Senate tradition. Calling
something a filibuster, even if you repeat it over and over, does not make it so. These
filibusters block confirmation of majority supported judicial nominations by defeating
votes to invoke cloture, or end debate. Either these filibusters happened before or they
did not.
Let us take the evidence offered by filibuster proponents at face value.
These two charts list some representative examples of what Democrats repeatedly
claim as filibuster precedents. As you can see, Mr. President, the Senate confirmed each
of these nominations. As ridiculous as it sounds, filibuster proponents claim, with a
straight face, that confirming these past nominations justifies refusing to confirm
nominations today.
Some examples are more ridiculous than others.
Stephen Breyer is here on the Democrats? list of filibusters, suggesting that the
Senate treated his nomination the way Democrats are treating President Bush?s
nominations today. The two situations could not be more different. Even though
President Carter nominated Breyer in November 1980 after losing his bid for re-election
and after Democrats lost control of the Senate, we voted to end debate and
overwhelmingly confirmed Stephen Breyer just 26 days after his nomination.
The suggestion that confirming the Breyer nomination for the party losing its
majority now justifies filibustering nominations for the party keeping its majority is, well,
just plain ridiculous.
Number 9
on the list of most ridiculous judicial filibuster defenses is that they are
necessary to prevent one-party rule from stacking the federal bench. If you win elections,
you say the country has chosen its leadership; if you lose, you complain about one-party
rule. When your party controls the White House, the president appoints judges. When
the other party controls the White House, the president stacks the bench.
Our Democratic colleagues say we should be guided by how the Democratic
Senate handled President Franklin Roosevelt?s effort to pack the Supreme Court. It is
true that FDR?s legislative proposal to create new Supreme Court seats failed ? and
without a filibuster, I might add. But as it turned out, packing the Supreme Court
required only filling the existing seats. President Roosevelt packed the Court all right, by
appointing no less than eight Justices in six years, more than any President except George
Washington himself.
As this chart shows, during the 75th, 76th, and 77th Congresses, when President
Roosevelt made those nominations, Democrats outnumbered Republicans by an average
of 70 to 20. Now that is one-party rule, and yet the Senate confirmed those Supreme
Court nominees in an average of just 13 days, one of them the very day it was made, and
six of them without even a roll call vote.
That is not because filibustering judicial nominations was difficult. In fact, our
cloture rule did not then apply to nominations. A single member of that tiny beleaguered
Republican minority could have filibustered these nominations and attempted to stop
President Roosevelt from packing the Supreme Court.
Mr. President, the most important number on this chart is the number right here at
the bottom, the number of filibusters against President Roosevelt?s nominees. Zero.
Number 8
is the claim that, without the filibuster, the Senate would be a patsy,
nothing but a rubberstamp for the President?s judicial nominations.
To paraphrase a great Supreme Court Justice, if simply stating this argument does
not suffice to refute it, our debate about these issues has achieved terminal silliness.
Being on the losing side does not make one a rubberstamp.
For all these centuries of democratic government, have we seen only winners and
rubberstamps?
Was the famous tagline for ABC?s Wide World of Sports, the thrill of victory and
the agony of rubberstamping?
Democrats did not start filibustering judicial nominations until the 108th
Congress. Imagine the American history books describing the previous 107 as the Great
Rubberstamp Senates.
Did Democrats rubberstamp the Supreme Court nomination of Clarence Thomas
in 1991 since they did not use the filibuster? That conflict lasting several months and
concluding with that 52-48 confirmation vote did not look like a rubberstamp to me.
Some modify this ridiculous argument by saying it applies when the same party
controls both the White House and the Senate. They make the stunning observation that
Senators of the president?s party are likely to vote for his nominees. The Assistant
Minority Leader, Senator Durbin, recently said, for example, that Republican Senators
are nothing but lapdogs for President Bush.
Pointing at others can be dangerous because you have a few fingers pointing back
at yourself. Counting both unanimous consent and roll call votes, more than 37,500 votes
were cast here on the Senate floor on President Clinton?s judicial nominations. Only 11
of them, just a teeny tiny three one-hundredths of one percent, were NO votes from
Democrats. Were they just rubberstamping lapdogs?
The Constitution assigns the same roles to the president and the Senate no matter
which party the American people puts in charge of which end of Pennsylvania Avenue.
In the 1960s, the Democrats were in charge, yet Minority Leader Everett Dirksen
refused to filibuster judicial nominees of Presidents Kennedy or Johnson. Was he a
rubberstamp?
In the 1970s, the Democrats were in charge, yet Minority Leader Howard Baker
refused to filibuster President Carter?s judicial nominees. Was he a rubberstamp?
In the 1980s, the Republicans were in charge, yet Minority Leader Robert Byrd
did not filibuster President Reagan?s judicial nominees. Was he a rubberstamp?
And a decade ago, the Democrats were again in charge, yet Minority Leader Bob
Dole refused to filibuster President Clinton?s judicial nominees. Was he a rubberstamp?
To avoid being a rubberstamp, one need only fight the good fight, win or lose.
Number 7
on the list of most ridiculous judicial filibuster defenses is that these
filibusters are necessary to preserve our system of checks and balances.
Mr. President, any civics textbook explains that what we call checks and balances
regulate the relationship between the branches of government. The Senate?s role of
advice and consent checks the president?s power to appoint judges, and we exercise that
check when we vote on his judicial nominations.
The filibuster is about the relationship between the majority and minority in the
Senate, not about the relationship between the Senate and the president. It actually
interferes with being a check on the president?s power by preventing the Senate from
exercising its role of advice and consent at all.
Former Majority Leader Mike Mansfield once explained that by filibustering
judicial nominations, individual Senators presume what he called ?great personal
privilege at the expense of the responsibilities of the Senate as a whole, and at the
expense of the constitutional structure of the federal government.?
In September 1999, the Senator from Massachusetts, Senator Kennedy, expressed
the same view when he said: ?It is true that some Senators have voiced concerns about
these nominations. But that should not prevent a roll call vote which gives every Senator
the opportunity to vote ?yes? or ?no.?? Those were the words of our colleague from
Massachusetts, Senator Kennedy, give every Senator the opportunity to vote yes or no.
That was then; this is now.
Mr. President, in case anyone needs further clarification on this point, I ask
unanimous consent that the definition of checks and balances from two sources,
congressforkids.net and socialstudieshelp.com, be entered into the record at this point.
Number 6
on the list is that these filibusters are necessary to prevent appointment
of extremists.
What our Democratic colleagues call extreme, the American Bar Association calls
qualified. In fact, all three of the appeals court nominees chosen four years ago who have
been denied confirmation received the ABA?s highest well qualified rating. The same
Democrats who once called the ABA rating the gold standard for evaluating judicial
nominees now disregard it.
Did 76 percent of Californians vote to keep an extremist on their Supreme Court
when they voted to retain Justice Janice Rogers Brown? Did 84 percent of Texans and
every major newspaper in the state support an extremist when they re-elected Justice
Priscilla Owen to the Texas Supreme Court?
Mr. President, the Associated Press reported last Friday that the Minority Leader
reserves the right to filibuster what he calls extreme Supreme Court nominees. That is
quite an escape hatch, if you will, since the minority already defines any nominee it does
not like as extreme. This is simply a re-packaged status quo masquerading as reform.
If Senators want to dismiss as an extremist any judicial nominee who does not
think exactly as they do, that is their right. That is, however, a reason for voting against
confirmation, not for refusing to vote at all. As our former colleague Tom Daschle said:
?I find it simply baffling that a Senator would vote against even voting on a judicial
nominee.?
Number 5
on the list of most ridiculous judicial filibuster defenses is the claim
that these filibusters are about free speech and debate. If Senators cannot filibuster
judicial nominations, some say, the Senate will cease to exist and we will be literally
unable to represent our constituents.
The same men who founded this Republic designed this Senate without the ability
to filibuster anything at all. A simple majority could proceed to vote on something after
sufficient debate. Among those first Senators were Oliver Ellsworth of Connecticut, who
later served on the Supreme Court, as well as Charles Carroll of Maryland and Richard
Henry Lee of Virginia, who had signed the Declaration of Independence.
When they ran for office, did they know they would be unable to represent their
states because they would be unable to filibuster?
Mr. President, these filibusters are about defeating judicial nominations, not
debating them. The minority rejects every proposal for debating and voting on
nominations it targets for defeat.
In April 2003, my colleague from Utah, Senator Bennett, asked the current
Minority Leader how many hours Democrats would need to debate a particular
nomination. His response spoke volumes: ?[T]here is not a number in the universe that
would be sufficient.?
Later that year, he said: ?We would not agree to a time agreement?of any
duration.? And just two weeks ago, the Minority Leader summed up what has really
been the Democrats? position all along: ?This has never been about the length of the
debate.?
He is right about that, this has always been about defeating nominations, not
debating them.
If our Democratic colleagues want to debate, then let us debate. Let us do what
Democrats once said was the purpose of debating judicial nominations. As my colleague
from California, Senator Boxer, put it in January 1998, ?let these names come up, let us
have debate, let us vote.?
Number 4
on the list is that returning to Senate tradition regarding floor votes on
judicial nominations would amount to breaking the rules to change the rules. As any
consultant worth even a little salt will tell you, that is a catchy little phrase. The problem
is that neither of its catchy little parts is true.
The constitutional option ? which would change judicial confirmation procedure
through the Senate voting to affirm a parliamentary ruling ? would neither break nor
change Senate rules.
While the constitutional option has not been used to break our rules, it has been
used to break filibusters.
On January 4, 1995, the Senator from West Virginia, Senator Byrd, described
how in 1977, when he was Majority Leader, he used this procedure to break a filibuster
on a natural gas bill.
I have genuine affection and great respect for the Senator from West Virginia.
Since I would not want to describe his repeated use of the constitutional option in a
pejorative way, let me use his own words:
?I have seen filibusters. I have helped to break them. There are few
Senators in this body who were here [in 1977] when I broke the filibuster
on the natural gas bill?.I asked Mr. Mondale, the Vice President, to go
please sit in the chair; I wanted to make some points of order and create
some new precedents that would break these filibusters. And the filibuster
was broken ? back, neck, legs, and arms?.So I know something about
filibusters. I helped to set a great many of the precedents that are on the
books here.?
He certainly did, and using the constitutional option today to return to Senate
tradition regarding judicial nominations would simply use the precedents he put on the
books.
Number 3 on the list of most ridiculous judicial filibuster defenses is that the
constitutional option is unprecedented.
In 1977, 1979, and 1987, the Majority Leader, Senator Byrd, secured a favorable
parliamentary ruling through a point of order, and a majority of Senators voted to affirm
it. He did this even when the result he sought was inconsistent with the text of our
written rules.
In 1980, he used a version of the same procedure to limit nomination-related
filibusters. Majority Leader Byrd made a motion for the Senate to both go into executive
session and proceed to consider a specific nomination.
At the time, the first step was not debatable, but the second step was debatable. A
majority of Senators voted to overturn a parliamentary ruling disallowing the procedural
change Majority Leader Byrd wanted. Seven of those Senators serve with us today and
their names appear here on this chart. They can explain for themselves how voting
against restricting nomination-related filibusters today is consistent with voting to restrict
them in 1980.
Number 2
on the list is that preventing judicial filibusters will doom legislative
filibusters. Our own Senate history shows how ridiculous this argument really is.
Filibusters became possible by dropping the rule allowing a simple majority to
proceed to a vote. The legislative filibuster developed, the judicial filibuster did not.
What we must today limit by rule or ruling we once limited by principle or self-restraint.
The filibuster is an inappropriate obstacle to the president?s judicial appointment
power, but an appropriate tool for exercising our own legislative power. I cannot fathom
how returning to our tradition regarding judicial nominations will somehow threaten our
tradition regarding legislation.
The only threat to the legislative filibuster, and the only votes to abolish it, have
come from the other side of the aisle.
In 1995, 19 Senators, all Democrats, voted against tabling an amendment to our
cloture rule that would prohibit all filibusters, of legislation as well as nominations. Nine
of those Senators serve with us still, and their names are here on this chart.
I voted then against the Democrats? proposal to eliminate the legislative filibuster
and I oppose eliminating it today. The Majority Leader, Senator Frist, also voted against
the Democrats? proposal to eliminate the legislative filibuster. In fact, that was his first
vote as a new member of this body. I join him in re-committing ourselves to protecting
the legislative filibuster.
I urge Democrats to follow the example of our colleague from California, Senator
Boxer, who recently said she has changed her position, that she no longer wants to
eliminate the legislative filibuster.
In 1995, USA Today condemned the filibuster as ?a pedestrian tool of partisans
and gridlock-meisters.? The New York Times said the filibuster is ?the tool of the sore
loser.? I hope these papers will reconsider their position and support the legislative
filibuster.
Mr. President, the Number 1 most ridiculous judicial filibuster defense
is that
those wanting to filibuster Republican nominees today opposed filibustering Democratic
nominees only a few years ago.
In a letter dated February 4, 1998, for example, left-wing groups urged
confirmation of Margaret Morrow to the U.S. District Court for the Central District of
California. They urged us to ?bring the nomination to the Senate, ensure that it received
prompt, full and fair consideration, and that a final vote on her nomination is scheduled
as soon as possible.? Groups signing this letter included the Alliance for Justice,
Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, and People for the American Way.
As we all know, these left-wing groups today lead the grassroots campaign behind
these filibusters that would deny this same treatment to President Bush?s nominees. Their
position has changed as the party controlling the White House has changed.
Let me make it easy for the hypocrite patrol to check out my position on the
Morrow nomination.
In the February 11, 1998, Congressional Record, on page S640, three pages
before that letter from the left-wing groups appears, I opened the debate on the Morrow
nomination by strongly urging my fellow Senators to support it. We did, and she is today
a sitting federal judge.
The same Democrats who today call for filibusters called for up or down votes
when a Democrat was in the White House. In 1999, my good friend from California,
Senator Feinstein, a member of the Judiciary Committee, said of the Senate: ?It is our job
to confirm these judges. If we don?t like them, we can vote against them.? She said: ?A
nominee is entitled to a vote. Vote them up; vote them down.?
Another committee member, Senator Schumer, properly said in March 2000 that
?the President nominates, and we are charged with voting on the nominees.?
I have already quoted the Senator from California, Senator Boxer, once, but in
2000 she said that filibustering judicial nominees ?would be such a twisting of what
cloture really means in these cases. It has never been done before for a judge, as far as
we know ? ever.? She was right, it had never been done before.
I appreciate what another member of the Judiciary Committee, Senator Kohl, said
in 1997: ?Let?s breathe life back into the confirmation process. Let?s vote on the
nominees who have already been approved by the Judiciary Committee.?
The Senator from Iowa, Senator Harkin, who fought so strongly against the
legislative filibuster in 1995, said five years later about the judicial filibuster: ?If they
want to vote against them, let them vote against them?.But at least have a vote.?
The same view comes from three former Judiciary Committee chairmen and
members of the Democratic leadership. A former committee chairman, Senator Biden,
said in 1997 that every judicial nominee is entitled ?to have a shot to be heard on the
floor and have a vote on the floor.?
Former chairman Senator Edward Kennedy said in 1998: ?If [Senators] don?t like
them, vote against them. But give them a vote.?
And my immediate predecessor as chairman, Senator Leahy, said a year later that
judicial nominees ?are entitled to a vote, aye or nay.? In his own practical way, he said:
?Vote them up or down.?
The Assistant Minority Leader, Senator Durbin, had urged the same thing in
September 1998: ?Vote the person up or down.?
Finally, Mr. President, the Minority Leader, Senator Reid, expressed in March
2000 the standard that I hope we can re-establish: ?Once they get out of committee, bring
them down here and vote up or down on them.?
The Majority Leader, Senator Frist, recently proposed a plan to accomplish
precisely this result, but the Minority Leader dismissed it as, I want to quote this
accurately now, ?a big fat wet kiss to the far right.? I never thought voting on judicial
nominations was a far right thing to do.
These statements speak for themselves. Do you see a pattern here? The message,
at one time, seemed to be: let us debate, and let us vote. That should be the standard no
matter which party controls the White House or the Senate.
Mr. President, as I close, let me summarize these Top 10 Most Ridiculous Judicial
Filibuster Defenses in this way. Blocking confirmation of majority supported judicial
nominations by defeating cloture votes is unprecedented. In the words of the current
Judiciary Committee chairman, Senator Specter, ?what Democrats are doing here is
really seeking a constitutional revolution.?
We must turn back that revolution.
No matter which party controls the White House or Senate, we should return to
our tradition of giving judicial nominations reaching the Senate floor an up or down vote.
Full, fair, vigorous debate is one of the hallmarks of this body, and it should drive how
we evaluate a president?s judicial nominations.
Honoring the Constitution?s separation of powers, however, requires that our
check on the president?s appointment power not highjack that power altogether. This
means debate must be a means to an end rather than an end in itself. Senators are free to
vote against nominees they feel are extreme, but they should not be free to prevent other
Senators from expressing a contrary view.
In this body, we govern ourselves through parliamentary rulings as well as by
written rules. The procedure of a majority of Senators voting to sustain a parliamentary
ruling has repeatedly been used to change Senate procedure without changing Senate
rules, even to limit nomination-related filibusters.
Mr. President, I have tried here to deal with the substance of filibuster
proponents? arguments, albeit with some humor and a touch of sarcasm.
A few days ago, as the Salt Lake Tribune reported, the Minority Leader was in
my home state ?stopping just short of calling Utah Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch a
hypocrite.? That is at least how the newspaper described it.
That is not what I consider a substantive argument. Perhaps those who dismiss
their opponents as liars, losers, or lapdogs have nothing else to offer in this debate.
Yet debate we must, and then we must vote.
I yield the floor.


Anyone?
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Probably not this week
Or maybe this week considering the way the news cycle started out, you never know...


Filibuster Battle: Prelude to High Court Nominee Showdown?
Monday May 16, 2:59 am ET
T.R. Goldman, Legal Times


William Rehnquist, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas won't be anywhere near the Senate floor. But when the explosive fight over filibustering judicial nominations comes to a head this week, keep this in mind: It's all about them.



The filibuster battle is, in the view of liberal interest groups, a prelude to an ultimate showdown over a Supreme Court nominee -- a nominee who presumably would be a staunch conservative with dim views of causes like abortion rights. The prospect of another Scalia or Thomas is frightening enough to liberal activists, but losing the filibuster would also rob them of the only real bargaining chip they have in the nominations process. President George W. Bush's most controversial appellate judges would undoubtedly all be confirmed, and a far wider swath of potential high court picks suddenly would become available.

"I do see the Court of Appeals fight as a lead up to the Supreme Court, because if the advocates of the nuclear option win this procedural vote, then that puts the president in a stronger position to nominate whom he wants," says Mark Gitenstein, a partner at Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw who worked for then-Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Joseph Biden, D-Del., during the fight over the high court nomination of Robert Bork.

Or as Richard Durbin of Illinois, the second-ranking Senate Democrat, says, "If we don't put up a fight with the judicial filibuster, we'll have nothing to shoot."

Right now, public opinion appears to be on the side of the Democrats. A recent CNN-Gallup-USA Today poll showed 52 percent of Americans opposed ending the filibuster; 40 percent supported the move. An ABC News- Washington Post poll found 66 percent of respondents wanted the filibuster retained.

But a protracted battle has its risks: Even if Senate Democrats win on the filibuster -- a vote too close to call -- they could burn through enough public good will and political capital to lose the momentum they might need to block a Supreme Court appointee.

Under the so-called nuclear option scenario, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., will ask for a ruling from the chair -- where Vice President Dick Cheney will be sitting -- that will permit an end to debate on judicial nominees by a simple majority of 51 senators, not the current 60. If Frist is successful, the Democrats are expected to bring much of the Senate's business to a halt. Frist said Friday he would bring the nominations of Priscilla Owen to the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and Janice Rogers Brown to the 9th Circuit to a vote this week.

Democrats will have to tread delicately, however. A shutdown has been tried before, and it was a political disaster for Newt Gingrich and congressional Republicans in the 1990s, helping, among other things, to ensure Bill Clinton's re-election in 1996.

But liberal groups dismiss the notion of a political downside.

"Everyone's getting more engaged," says Adam Shah, judicial nominations specialist at the liberal interest group Alliance for Justice. "This thing is building to a crescendo," adds Shah, who believes the surge will peak during the expected Supreme Court nominations later this year.

Indeed, Democratic pollster Steve McMahon of McMahon Squier and Associates spins out a potential Republican rout in 2006 if the nominations battle continues apace. "If Frist votes on the nuclear option and loses, the Dems are free to roam about the country, free to filibuster judicial nominees because they won.

"If Frist wins the vote, the Dems are free to say, 'You couldn't have gotten this nominee if you didn't change the rules,'" McMahon continues. "They may have lost the battle, but they are setting themselves up to win the war -- come 2006."

Of course, the standards for a Supreme Court nominee are higher than those for an appellate judge, and the political dimension has never been more prominent. "There's a completely new awareness of the power of the Supreme Court since Bush v. Gore," says Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass.

And that means even Republican senators would not necessarily fall into lockstep behind any one nominee, says Ralph Neas, president of People for the American Way, which strongly supports the filibuster.

"The Supreme Court is different," says Neas. "For many of these Republican senators, much more deference would be accorded to an appellate court nominee than a Supreme Court nominee, who would be setting precedent for 20 or 30 or 40 years."

And if the Democrats lose the fight over the filibuster? "It's not all over," says Neas, "but it's immensely more difficult."

Republicans say liberal and Democratic fears that Bush will push through a hard-right nominee if the filibuster is gone are unnecessarily cynical.

"The president gets a bad rap," says Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, who was a state Supreme Court justice during then-Gov. George W. Bush's tenure. "His nominations when he was governor were all mainstream, and the overwhelming majority of his federal nominations have been as well. The president is not going to appoint somebody who is not qualified or a member of any radical fringe."

Likewise, notes a senior Senate Democratic staffer, "The Republicans have really jumped ahead, imagining all these bogeymen out there." Senate Democrats, says the staffer, want to be able to support Bush's high court nominee and are not going to reject a mainstream conservative simply to deny the president his choice.


 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
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Its almost showtime


WASHINGTON (AP) ? Senate Republicans on Tuesday picked Texas Judge Priscilla Owen to be the flashpoint of a historic battle between President Bush and Senate Democrats over shaping the federal judiciary, with a final showdown looming early next week.

A small group of moderate senators worked furiously behind the scenes to head off a clash over whether the parliamentary tactic of the filibuster can be used to block judicial nominees. If majority Republicans opt to change the rules to disallow filibusters of judicial nominees ? a move dubbed the "nuclear option" ? parliamentary warfare between Democrats and Republicans could escalate and stall Bush's legislative agenda.

"Members on both sides don't want the explosion to occur," said Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., as Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine nodded at his side. "There will be a judicial nomination before the Senate tomorrow, but there is some time to continue these efforts to avoid the ultimate showdown."

After meeting with Owen and California Judge Janice Rogers Brown ? who were blocked by Democrats during Bush's first term ? Republicans announced that Owen's nomination for an appeals court seat will be the vehicle for the attempt to prohibit Democrats from filibustering judicial nominations.

The two women, who are among Bush's most-wanted judicial nominees, met with the president at the White House and later with Senate GOP leaders at the Capitol.

Owen and Brown did not speak to the media at either location, though they appeared at a photo shoot with Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., and Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-Ky.

The meetings came a day before Frist planned to bring Owen's nomination back to the Senate floor for confirmation. While debate on Owen's nomination will begin today, Republican aides said that a test vote on her nomination to the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans was expected early next week.

If that vote is not successful, then Frist plans to call a vote on banning judicial filibusters, aides said.


Frist insists that all judicial nominees deserve confirmation votes. "I've made it clear what the principle is: a fair up-or-down vote," he said.

But Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada has refused to give up Democrats' ability to block Supreme Court and lower court nominees they consider too extreme. Court watchers think a Supreme Court vacancy could happen sometime this year.

"The goal of the Republican leadership and their allies in the White House is to pave the way for a Supreme Court nominee who would only need 50 votes for confirmation rather than 60," the number of senators needed to break a filibuster, Reid said.

Democrats have prevented final votes on 10 of Bush's first-term appeals court nominees and have threatened to do the same this year to seven the president renominated, including Brown and Owen. Frist has threatened to try to block the Democrats' use of the filibuster, a parliamentary device that can be overcome only by a majority of 60 votes or higher.

It requires only 51 votes to approve a nominee once a vote is called in the 100-member Senate. Likewise, Frist could prevail with 51 votes supporting his move to rule filibusters out-of-order when used to block a confirmation vote.

Neither side appears certain it has enough votes to prevail if the issue is put to a test.

The White House tried to have it both ways on Tuesday ? letting it be known that Owen and Brown were spending much of the day there at the same time the administration was insisting it was remaining hands-off as Senate leaders decided how to proceed.

"We've always stayed out of Senate procedural or congressional procedural matters," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

While Owen and Brown shuttled between the White House and the Capitol, a small cadre of senators worked to avoid a showdown over nominations.

A small group of Democrats have floated a proposal to clear the way for confirmation of some of Bush's blocked appointees. If enough Republicans and Democrats agreed to a compromise of their own, they might be able to impose it on the leadership if necessary.

"We've been going in earnest for the last couple of weeks," Sen. Mark Pryor, D-Ark., said. "We don't have an agreement yet, and it's possible we'll never work this out, but I think we'll have some news in the next couple of days."

Under the deal, Republicans would have to pledge no change through 2006 in the Senate's rules that allow filibusters against judicial nominees. For their part, Democrats would commit not to block votes on Bush's Supreme Court or appeals court nominees during the same period, except in extreme circumstances.

Each member would be free to determine what constituted an extreme circumstance, but Republicans would bind themselves to not changing the filibuster rule for the next two years.

Some Republicans have balked at that language, saying it is not equitable.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Frist is owned by the Christian extremists. He's being played but he doesn't care because it keeps the campaign dollars coming in.

Bunch of whores. And Sonofabitch McConnell is a freakin' tool. Lied through his teeth on FOX News Sunday this past week.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
More flip-flopping hypocrisy from the GOP:


May 9, 2005
Hagel calls for filibuster solution
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/09/filibuster.fight.ap/
"We would, I think, debase our system and fail our country if we don't do this," Hagel told ABC's "This Week."

"But you can't give up a minority rights tool in the interest of the country, like the filibuster," he said.
May 19, 2005
http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=54&u_sid=1414800&u_rnd=8740135
Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., for weeks said he was undecided on whether to back a move by Frist, if it comes. Wednesday, he officially rejected signing on to a compromise.

"I believe that all of the president's nominees deserve an up or down vote," Hagel said, quoted by spokesman Mike Buttry. "The agreement that has been proposed calls for three of the president's nominees not to get a vote. I could not agree to that. That is unfair and it's not right."



And some bonus hypocrisy:

Sen. Rick Santorum on the floor of the Senate today:
It's the equivalent of Adolf Hitler in 1942 "I'm in Paris. how dare you invade me. How dare you bomb my city? It's mine." This is no more the rule of the Senate than it was the rule of the Senate before not to filibuster.
March 1, 2005
http://thinkprogress.org/index.php?p=925
On March 1, Sen. Robert Byrd (D-WV) made a reference to Hitler in a speech about the nuclear option. Santorum lashed out at Byrd for his remarks. From the 3/11/05 Charleston Journal:
Byrd roused the ire of many Republicans when he tangentially referred to Adolf Hitler during a speech on March 1 defending cloture and the right to debate.

[Snip]

Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., asked Byrd to retract his comments, stating they ?lessen the credibility of the senator and the decorum of the Senate.? The Anti-Defamation League also criticized Byrd.