• We should now be fully online following an overnight outage. Apologies for any inconvenience, we do not expect there to be any further issues.

The Not-So-Secret History of Filibusters

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
from http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/10/opinion/10Mitchell.html

The Not-So-Secret History of Filibusters

By GEORGE J. MITCHELL, former Senate Majority Leader

EVERYONE recalls "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington," but too few remember the real-life Mrs. Smith. So, as the Senate nears a vote on a proposal to unilaterally change Senate rules for confirming federal judges, I am reminded of the words spoken 55 years ago by Senator Margaret Chase Smith of Maine in her famous "Declaration of Conscience" against the tactics of Senator Joe McCarthy, a member of her own party.

"I don't believe the American people will uphold any political party that puts political exploitation above national interest," the senator said. "Surely we Republicans aren't that desperate for victory. While it might be a fleeting victory for the Republican Party, it would be a more lasting defeat for the American people. Surely it would ultimately be suicide for the Republican Party and the two-party system that has protected our American liberties from the dictatorship of a one-party system."

The circumstances are obviously different; there is no McCarthyism in the current dispute. But the principles of exercising independent judgment and preserving our system of checks and balances are at the heart of the Senate rules debate.

Senator Smith embodied independence and understood the Senate's singular place in our system of checks and balances. Our founders created that system to prevent abuse of power and to protect our rights and freedoms. The president's veto power is a check on Congress. The Senate's power to confirm or reject judicial nominees balances the president's authority to nominate them. The proposal by some Republican senators to change rules that have governed the Senate for two centuries now puts that system in danger.

Since 1789, the Senate has rejected nearly 20 percent of all nominees to the Supreme Court, many without an up-or-down vote.

In 1968 Republican senators used a filibuster to block voting on President Lyndon B. Johnson's nominee for chief justice of the Supreme Court. During the debate, a Republican senator, Robert Griffin, said: "It is important to realize that it has not been unusual for the Senate to indicate its lack of approval for a nomination by just making sure that it never came to a vote on the merits. As I said, 21 nominations to the court have failed to win Senate approval. But only nine of that number were rejected on a direct, up-and-down vote."

Between 1968 and 2001, both parties used filibusters to oppose judicial nominees. In 2000, the last year of Bill Clinton's presidency, Republican senators filibustered two of his nominees to be circuit judges. They also prevented Senate votes on more than 60 of Mr. Clinton's judicial nominees by other means.

So much for the assertion that filibustering to prevent votes on judicial nominees is a new tactic invented by Senate Democrats.

Senate rules can be changed, and they often have been. But Senate Republicans don't have the votes for a change within the rules. So they propose to go around them, to act unilaterally to get their way. It's what they call the "nuclear option."

They claim that their actions are justified because the filibuster is being used unfairly to stop the confirmation of President Bush's nominees. But 208 of the president's 218 judicial nominees have been approved. That's right: the Senate has confirmed 95 percent of Mr. Bush's judicial nominees. That's a higher percentage of approval than any of his three predecessors achieved.

During my six years as majority leader of the Senate, Republicans, then in the minority, often used filibusters to achieve their goals. I didn't like the results, but I accepted them because Republicans were acting within the rules; and we were able to work together on many other issues. There were 55 Democratic senators then. We had the power to take the drastic action now being proposed, but we refrained from exercising that power because it was as wrong then as it is now.

Most Americans may not be aware of the complexities of the Senate's rules, but they do know and understand two fundamental principles: playing by the rules and dealing fairly with others.

The nuclear option violates both. If it's exercised, I hope that enough modern-day Senator Smiths, guided by what is best for the nation and the Senate, will vote to stop it.

I don't really have any original thoughts to add in this post... I just think it's a good read :)
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
There's also all of this:

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/010459.html

In 1998, then-Senior FRC Writer and Analyst Steven Schwalm, appeared on NPR?s Talk of the Nation and had this to say about the filibuster against James Hormel, President?s Clinton?s ambassadorial nominee:
...the Senate is a -- is not a majoritarian institution like the House of Representatives is. It is a deliberative body and it's got a number of checks and balances built into our government. This is one of those checks, in which a majority cannot just sheerly force its will, even if they have a majority of votes in some cases, that's why there are things like filibusters and other things that give minorities in the Senate some power to slow things up, to hold things up, and let things be aired properly.

Also,

Analysis: Frist flip-flopped on filibusters (MSNBC)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7518425
In 1999 and 2000, before he became majority leader, Frist was one of the Republican senators blocking President Clinton?s nominee to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, Richard Paez.

Frist and others repeatedly prevented a vote on the Paez nomination. In 1999, Frist and 52 other Republicans voted against a motion to proceed to a vote on Paez.

And this:

http://www.swingstateproject.com/2005/04/sen_isakson_rga.php#comments
Senator Isakson on the floor of the United States Senate extolling the virtues of the filibuster to protect the rights of the minority from being overrun by the majority.

"Don't you fear that the Shi'ites inevitably being in the majority, that you will be overrun? And he says, 'oh no, we have a secret weapon.' Mr. President, this is a Kurdish leader, in the middle of Iraq in the 21st century who said he had a secret weapon. And when asked what it was, he said one word, 'filibuster'" <...>

"It is one of their minority leaders, proudly stating one of the pillars and principles of our government, as the way they would ensure that the majority never overran the minority."

Video of Sen. Isakson:

http://reid.senate.gov/video/isakson.mov
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
What part about what's been posted isn't true, CsG? You can wail and whine and bitch and moan as much as you want but you can't hide away the truth.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: conjur
What part about what's been posted isn't true, CsG? You can wail and whine and bitch and moan as much as you want but you can't hide away the truth.

Are you suggesting that it isn't a DNC talking points memo? :D Sure contains an awful lot of generalizations and misdirection like the dems have been doing with this Judicial confirmation issue. My question is this - if these nominees are SOOOOO bad the dems think they have to filibuster(and thus break longstanding tradition) them, then why can't they come to the floor and lay out why exactly they think the nominees are SOOOOO bad? That's right -they can't. They trot out one decision by the lady judge from Texas, but yet throw away all the other decisions she has made that they would agree with and Conservatives might not. Doesn't sound "extreme" to me. Sounds like she does some research and rules on the individual case using law. Uh oh... that might be the problem I guess. I mean a judge who uses the LAW to rule on a case? nah - can't have that - it's too "extreme". :roll:

Give the people a vote - no more of this tyranny by the minority. You on the left LOST and have consistently LOST lately yet you still want to get your way. Tough. The procedure is for Judicial nominees who make it out of committee are voted on and are confirmed with a simple majority.

CsG
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: conjur
What part about what's been posted isn't true, CsG? You can wail and whine and bitch and moan as much as you want but you can't hide away the truth.
Sure he can. When you can't refute the facts, attack the source, divert, and distort.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: conjur
What part about what's been posted isn't true, CsG? You can wail and whine and bitch and moan as much as you want but you can't hide away the truth.
Sure he can. When you can't refute the facts, attack the source, divert, and distort.

The OP can try to nicey nice up the filibustering of Judicial nominees all he wants but it doesn't change the facts of this issue. The FACT is that the "just say no" democrats can't actually find anything to oppose these judges on(atleast nothing they want to say on record) so they are pulling the fake filibuster stunt.

Fine - play games if you wish - just remember that what comes around - goes around;)

CsG
 

kogase

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2004
5,213
0
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
They trot out one decision by the lady judge from Texas, but yet throw away all the other decisions she has made that they would agree with and Conservatives might not.
CsG

Okay, let's try to find other uses for this argument...

Hitler is for: abortion, euthanasia, gun control, killing all Jews, vegetarianism...

Well, he's for killing all Jews, but why focus on that when he's for so many other good causes? Oh, because killing all Jews is a pretty big deal!
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: kogase
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
They trot out one decision by the lady judge from Texas, but yet throw away all the other decisions she has made that they would agree with and Conservatives might not.
CsG

Okay, let's try to find other uses for this argument...

Hitler is for: abortion, euthanasia, gun control, killing all Jews, vegetarianism...

Well, he's for killing all Jews, but why focus on that when he's for so many other good causes? Oh, because killing all Jews is a pretty big deal!

:roll:

Nice try but it's not even close. She offered a dissenting opinion in one case that the moonbats are trying to blow WAY out of proportion. Here is what you equate to being for "killing all jews": "Owen called for a very narrow view of a state law concerning the ability of minors to obtain an abortion without parental notification."


Any more absurdity you wish to entertain us with?

CsG
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
[ ... ]
Fine - play games if you wish - just remember that what comes around - goes around;)

CsG
Exactly so. This time it's the Republicans on the receiving end, and they're hypocritically crying foul. Po' babies. What goes around, comes around indeed.
 

kogase

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2004
5,213
0
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: kogase
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
They trot out one decision by the lady judge from Texas, but yet throw away all the other decisions she has made that they would agree with and Conservatives might not.
CsG

Okay, let's try to find other uses for this argument...

Hitler is for: abortion, euthanasia, gun control, killing all Jews, vegetarianism...

Well, he's for killing all Jews, but why focus on that when he's for so many other good causes? Oh, because killing all Jews is a pretty big deal!

:roll:

Nice try but it's not even close. She offered a dissenting opinion in one case that the moonbats are trying to blow WAY out of proportion. Here is what you equate to being for "killing all jews": "Owen called for a very narrow view of a state law concerning the ability of minors to obtain an abortion without parental notification."


Any more absurdity you wish to entertain us with?

CsG


Missed the point. I'm not equating what she did with killing all Jews.

Simply because they may agree with her on some issues doesn't mean that they should overlook a very big issue that they disagree with her on.

Also, while we're on this subject, one could point out that you are making a generalization by "trotting out" one of the judges that they are blocking because you believe she will best illustrate your point... while offering no other examples.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
[ ... ]
Fine - play games if you wish - just remember that what comes around - goes around;)

CsG
Exactly so. This time it's the Republicans on the receiving end, and they're hypocritically crying foul. Po' babies. What goes around, comes around indeed.

Actually they are not. This fake filibuster of Judicial nominees was not done by Republicans. But speaking of "hypocritically crying foul" -what about your boy Harkin? Wasn't it he who sought to end the filibuster back in 1995? No, that wasn't about judicial nominees - it was the whole damn filibuster.
Bingaman, Boxer, Feingold, Harkin, Kennedy, Kerry, Lautenberg, Sarbanes, and Lieberman

Heh, hypocrisy indeed.

There are 22 vacancies in our federal appeals courts . . . . These positions should be filled with qualified individuals as soon as possible. I urge the Republican leadership to take the steps necessary to allow the full Senate to vote up or down on these important nominations. (S9664, 10/3/2000) - Tom Harkin

CsG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: kogase
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: kogase
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
They trot out one decision by the lady judge from Texas, but yet throw away all the other decisions she has made that they would agree with and Conservatives might not.
CsG

Okay, let's try to find other uses for this argument...

Hitler is for: abortion, euthanasia, gun control, killing all Jews, vegetarianism...

Well, he's for killing all Jews, but why focus on that when he's for so many other good causes? Oh, because killing all Jews is a pretty big deal!

:roll:

Nice try but it's not even close. She offered a dissenting opinion in one case that the moonbats are trying to blow WAY out of proportion. Here is what you equate to being for "killing all jews": "Owen called for a very narrow view of a state law concerning the ability of minors to obtain an abortion without parental notification."


Any more absurdity you wish to entertain us with?

CsG


Missed the point. I'm not equating what she did with killing all Jews.

Simply because they may agree with her on some issues doesn't mean that they should overlook a very big issue that they disagree with her on.

Also, while we're on this subject, one could point out that you are making a generalization by "trotting out" one of the judges that they are blocking because you believe she will best illustrate your point... while offering no other examples.

Psstt - the reason I bring her up is because she is the only one they seem to have found something to oppose, albeit it a rather asinine issue to try to blow up. But hey they whined about Bolton(Bush's UN nominee) *gasp* yelling at someone... talk about a bunch of linguine spined "just say noers". If you have something of substance to oppose the nominees with -then present it.

CsG
 

kogase

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2004
5,213
0
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
If you have something of substance to oppose the nominees with -then present it.
CsG

I don't. I couldn't care less about the nominees they are opposing. Don't know anything about them. Don't care about the Democrats' cause. Just posting to refute your fallacious argument.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: kogase
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
If you have something of substance to oppose the nominees with -then present it.
CsG

I don't. I couldn't care less about the nominees they are opposing. Don't know anything about them. Don't care about the Democrats' cause. Just posting to refute your fallacious argument.

And you have failed, and besides -that statement wasn't to you - it was to the democrats. You might have picked that up if you actually read what I posted.

Now back to your little notion of my argument be fallacious. No where did I say they can't oppose here just because they like some of her other rulings save one. I'm saying that it is absurd because of the nature of how they are doing it. She came to an informed opinion on one ruling(which if you would actually read up on makes quite good sense). The moonbat left has blown it WAY out of proportion and even distorted what Gonzales has stated on the matter. I mean, the left absolutely had a conniption fit during the Gonzales confirmation yet now they are trying to use(misuse) a statement by him to claim she is extreme? :roll: Only a partisan hack wouldn't be able to see the absurdity of trying to use that one instance to oppose her.

But hey, absurdity rules the roost here...

CsG
 

kogase

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2004
5,213
0
0
Dunno what to tell you man. In the future you'll just have to clarify. I refuted the argument you wrote, not the argument you meant.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: conjur
What part about what's been posted isn't true, CsG? You can wail and whine and bitch and moan as much as you want but you can't hide away the truth.
Sure he can. When you can't refute the facts, attack the source, divert, and distort.

The OP can try to nicey nice up the filibustering of Judicial nominees all he wants but it doesn't change the facts of this issue. The FACT is that the "just say no" democrats can't actually find anything to oppose these judges on(atleast nothing they want to say on record) so they are pulling the fake filibuster stunt.

Fine - play games if you wish - just remember that what comes around - goes around;)

CsG
Now who's using Talking Points?

"just say no"?

Hmm...let's see....ah!


From: "Chairman Ken Mehlman" <kenmehlman@gop.com>
To: <conjur>
Subject: Party Of No
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:06:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Party Of No
Dear Jerry,

No, no, no, no. That's all you hear from the Democrats in Washington these days. From blocking qualified judges to obstructing Social Security reform, they're obstructing the President's agenda at every turn without offering ideas of their own.

Watch the RNC's latest Web video now at GOP.com to learn more about the "Party of No"!

Democrat House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) says Democrats don't need a plan, they just need to stop Republicans. Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) says they don't care how long it takes, they will never back down. U.S. News and World Report columnist Gloria Borger says the Democrat Party has become the "party of no."

Watch the "Party of No" Web video now on GOP.com! After you've watched please call your Member of Congress. Tell them to support the President's agenda.

Sincerely,


Ken Mehlman
RNC Chairman

PS: Watch the "Party of No" Web video now on GOP.com!

Send To Friends

Unsubscribe

I think we all know who the real party of No is: GOP

No honor
No integrity
No accountability
No compassion
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: kogase
Dunno what to tell you man. In the future you'll just have to clarify. I refuted the argument you wrote, not the argument you meant.

And if you knew about the issue I spoke about it would have been clear, but obviously you took the generic stance instead of investigating it. You took one piece of my statement and tried to argue against it as if it were made as a stand alone statement -s ounds a bit dishonest if you ask me. But alas, there is a whole thread dedicated to that nominee that you can go read to help with this issue. Most is the usual blustering of the wacko left but there are bits and pieces of real truth and a bit more if you do a little digging on your own to fill in the holes certain types conveniently left out. But hey, whatever floats your boat man.

CsG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: conjur
What part about what's been posted isn't true, CsG? You can wail and whine and bitch and moan as much as you want but you can't hide away the truth.
Sure he can. When you can't refute the facts, attack the source, divert, and distort.

The OP can try to nicey nice up the filibustering of Judicial nominees all he wants but it doesn't change the facts of this issue. The FACT is that the "just say no" democrats can't actually find anything to oppose these judges on(atleast nothing they want to say on record) so they are pulling the fake filibuster stunt.

Fine - play games if you wish - just remember that what comes around - goes around;)

CsG
Now who's using Talking Points?

"just say no"?

Hmm...let's see....ah!


From: "Chairman Ken Mehlman" <kenmehlman@gop.com>
To: <conjur>
Subject: Party Of No
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:06:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Party Of No
Dear Jerry,

No, no, no, no. That's all you hear from the Democrats in Washington these days. From blocking qualified judges to obstructing Social Security reform, they're obstructing the President's agenda at every turn without offering ideas of their own.

Watch the RNC's latest Web video now at GOP.com to learn more about the "Party of No"!

Democrat House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) says Democrats don't need a plan, they just need to stop Republicans. Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) says they don't care how long it takes, they will never back down. U.S. News and World Report columnist Gloria Borger says the Democrat Party has become the "party of no."

Watch the "Party of No" Web video now on GOP.com! After you've watched please call your Member of Congress. Tell them to support the President's agenda.

Sincerely,


Ken Mehlman
RNC Chairman

PS: Watch the "Party of No" Web video now on GOP.com!

Send To Friends

Unsubscribe

I think we all know who the real party of No is: GOP

No honor
No integrity
No accountability
No compassion

Uhh... I made up the "Just say No" quote. It is not the same as Mehlman's "Party of No". But hey, nice try attempting to turn the discussion to me instead of the fact that the OP is just DNC talking points wrapped up in a nice little opinion diatribe.

Admit it conjur, if I would have posted an opinion piece on this issue - I would have been accused of RNC talking points - probably by you! So you can drop the holier than thou routine and start looking at thing from a realistic perspective(something you used to be able to do).

Oh well... believe whatever you wish...:D

CsG
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
I'll take the opinion of a former Senate Majority Leader over Limbaugh or Hannity, any day.

Besides, there are still of these FACTS:

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/010459.html

In 1998, then-Senior FRC Writer and Analyst Steven Schwalm, appeared on NPR?s Talk of the Nation and had this to say about the filibuster against James Hormel, President?s Clinton?s ambassadorial nominee:
...the Senate is a -- is not a majoritarian institution like the House of Representatives is. It is a deliberative body and it's got a number of checks and balances built into our government. This is one of those checks, in which a majority cannot just sheerly force its will, even if they have a majority of votes in some cases, that's why there are things like filibusters and other things that give minorities in the Senate some power to slow things up, to hold things up, and let things be aired properly.

Also,

Analysis: Frist flip-flopped on filibusters (MSNBC)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7518425
In 1999 and 2000, before he became majority leader, Frist was one of the Republican senators blocking President Clinton?s nominee to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, Richard Paez.

Frist and others repeatedly prevented a vote on the Paez nomination. In 1999, Frist and 52 other Republicans voted against a motion to proceed to a vote on Paez.

And this:

http://www.swingstateproject.com/2005/04/sen_isakson_rga.php#comments
Senator Isakson on the floor of the United States Senate extolling the virtues of the filibuster to protect the rights of the minority from being overrun by the majority.

"Don't you fear that the Shi'ites inevitably being in the majority, that you will be overrun? And he says, 'oh no, we have a secret weapon.' Mr. President, this is a Kurdish leader, in the middle of Iraq in the 21st century who said he had a secret weapon. And when asked what it was, he said one word, 'filibuster'" <...>

"It is one of their minority leaders, proudly stating one of the pillars and principles of our government, as the way they would ensure that the majority never overran the minority."

Video of Sen. Isakson:

http://reid.senate.gov/video/isakson.mov[/quote]
 

kogase

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2004
5,213
0
0
Ugh, why draw this out... oh well.

Look here, everything I set out to refute was contained in the sentence I quoted: "They trot out one decision by the lady judge from Texas, but yet throw away all the other decisions she has made that they would agree with and Conservatives might not."

This is the only pertinent item to our little debate here. The points surrounding that sentence have to do with the fact that you disagree with the Democrats. You do not agree that this woman is extreme. I don't care about that, I have no idea whether she is "extreme" or not. I'm simply trying to refute the idea that "(1 serious wrong) + (19039483 rights) == right".

You may not think that anything she espouses is seriously wrong, but the Democrats obviously disagree with you. But I don't really care about that, as that has nothing to do with what I'm arguing against.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: kogase
Ugh, why draw this out... oh well.

Look here, everything I set out to refute was contained in the sentence I quoted: "They trot out one decision by the lady judge from Texas, but yet throw away all the other decisions she has made that they would agree with and Conservatives might not."

This is the only pertinent item to our little debate here. The points surrounding that sentence have to do with the fact that you disagree with the Democrats. You do not agree that this woman is extreme. I don't care about that, I have no idea whether she is "extreme" or not. I'm simply trying to refute the idea that "(1 serious wrong) + (19039483 rights) == right".

You may not think that anything she espouses is seriously wrong, but the Democrats obviously disagree with you. But I don't really care about that, as that has nothing to do with what I'm arguing against.


Actually no, it is not the only part pertinent to this debate. You might think it is but it's not. the whole next part is important to the context of that sentence. You pulled that one sentence and tried to portray it as a stand alone argument/statement which it clearly was not. The next part goes on to suggest that her opinion was grounded in LAW and reality...but hey, go ahead and ignore what you wish if you feel it necessary.:)

CsG
 

kogase

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2004
5,213
0
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Actually no, it is not the only part pertinent to this debate. You might think it is but it's not. the whole next part is important to the context of that sentence. You pulled that one sentence and tried to portray it as a stand alone argument/statement which it clearly was not. The next part goes on to suggest that her opinion was grounded in LAW and reality...but hey, go ahead and ignore what you wish if you feel it necessary.:)

CsG

Exactly as I said: the Democrats seem to disagree with you. This changes nothing.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: kogase
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Actually no, it is not the only part pertinent to this debate. You might think it is but it's not. the whole next part is important to the context of that sentence. You pulled that one sentence and tried to portray it as a stand alone argument/statement which it clearly was not. The next part goes on to suggest that her opinion was grounded in LAW and reality...but hey, go ahead and ignore what you wish if you feel it necessary.:)

CsG

Exactly as I said: the Democrats seem to disagree with you. This changes nothing.

And it destroys your little argument against what I said because you took it out of context.

CsG