The New 65

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
linkage

In its 1935 report, Roosevelt's committee attached a table of occupations held by employed Americans aged 55 or older. More than 80 percent worked in agriculture, manufacturing, trade, or domestic and personal service. Fewer than 10 percent worked in professional service or clerical occupations. Today's economy looks nothing like that. In 1999, Eugene Steuerle and Richard Johnson of the Urban Institute reported that the percentage of Americans working in physically demanding jobs?defined as jobs "requiring frequent lifting or carrying of objects weighing more than 25 pounds"?had fallen from more than 20 percent in 1950 to less than 8 percent in 1996. Two years ago, Johnson and Steuerle added that the percentage of 55- to 59-year-old men who said health problems interfered with their jobs had declined from more than 27 percent in 1971 to less than 20 percent in 2002.

...

What does this mean for Americans 65 and older? Can they work longer than people of that age did in 1935? If so, how much? If 65 marked the threshold between productivity and dependency seven decades ago, where is that threshold today? What is the new 65?

To figure that out, Slate asked Kenneth Manton and XiLiang Gu of Duke's Center for Demographic Studies to crunch the numbers. Manton runs the National Long-Term Care Survey, the nation's most complete study of changes in older people's physical abilities. Last year he testified before Congress on the study's fiscal implications. In his calculation for Slate, Manton began with a 2002 paper by Dora Costa of MIT, which found that "functional limitation as measured by difficulty in walking, difficulty in bending, paralysis, blindness in at least one eye, and deafness in at least one ear has fallen at an average rate of 0.6% per year among men age 50 to 64 and age 60 to 74 from the early twentieth century to the early 1990s." Manton combined this equation with a 2003 analysis by Robert Fogel of the University of Chicago and a 2001 paper by Manton and Gu, which showed an average 1.7 percent annual decline in chronic disability prevalence among Americans 65 or older between 1982 and 1999. Calculating backward, Manton deduced that at age 65, active-life expectancy?the average number of years a person could expect to live free of chronic functional impairment?was 8.8 years in 1935, 11.8 years in 1982, and 13.9 years in 1999. Based on the trend line, he projects that by 2015, active life expectancy will be 17 years. In short, if you were designing a system in 1999 for people who could expect as many active years as a 65-year-old person could expect in 1935, you'd set the retirement age at 70. And by 2015, you'd raise it to 73.

Twenty years ago, Congress made a move in this direction, programming the retirement age to rise from 65 to 67. But the change didn't begin taking effect until 2003 and is being phased in so gradually it will take 24 years to complete. That's slower than the rate of increase in active-life expectancy. The "rising" retirement age isn't catching up without our biology; it's falling behind. Meanwhile, over the last four decades, Congress scaled back and eventually abolished the Retirement Earnings Test, which Roosevelt had proposed in order to confine Social Security to people who couldn't work. The RET rollback was supposed to encourage work. Instead, despite improvements in health and ease of work during those decades, the percentage of people aged 65 or older who earned income apart from assets or pensions fell from 36 percent to 22 percent. More old people can work without giving up any Social Security benefits, but fewer are doing so. Thanks to pensions and Social Security, they don't have to.

What about the minority of people whose strenuous jobs or poor health make work after 65 too difficult? The Greenspan Commission, which proposed the original age hike to 67, solved that problem in 1983. Social Security already has a separate benefits program for people with disabilities. "The disability benefits program can be improved to provide cash benefits and Medicare to those between age 62 and the higher normal retirement age who, for reasons of health, are unable to continue working," said the commission.

How much money would a higher retirement age save? According to the Congressional Budget Office, if the ascent to age 67 were accelerated and completed by 2016, and if the retirement age kept rising two months a year until it hit age 70 in 2037, and if the rate of increase then slowed to one month every two years, Social Security outlays in 2050 would decline by 12 percent. A fully adjusted retirement age--one that kept pace with biology instead of lagging 40 years behind it, as the CBO's scenario does--would generate an even bigger surplus. By one rule of thumb, every year of recipient eligibility consumes about 7 percent of Social Security's financial commitments. Compared to the currently assumed retirement age of 67, an increase to age 73 could cut the government's obligations by as much as 40 percent. Either way, the projected Social Security deficit would disappear--and with it, the Democratic objection to personal retirement accounts, which could be funded out of the new payroll tax surplus.


linkage

Good article, take the time the time to read the entire thing. Sound advice on fixing social security. Why cant democrats come out and propose something so simple.
 

aswedc

Diamond Member
Oct 25, 2000
3,543
0
76
Good article, take the time the time to read the entire thing. Sound advice on fixing social security. Why cant democrats come out and propose something so simple.
What do you think sounds better to the average American?

1) We'll give you more money, and we'll save Social Security!

2) We'll save Social Security, but we have to raise the eligibility age to 73

That's why the Democrats don't propose it.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Yeah, it's an easy fix. Just raise the retirement age. No need for that privatization nonsense.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Yeah, it's an easy fix. Just raise the retirement age. No need for that privatization nonsense.



Index it back to the original retirement age and we can probably go back to a 2% payroll tax as well :D
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
So how do you propose we pass this considering the AARP crowd would scream bloody murder? The problem is not the retirement age itself, the problem is the retirement-age recipients who have no qualms about bankrupting future generations so long as they get theirs.
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Originally posted by: glenn1
So how do you propose we pass this considering the AARP crowd would scream bloody murder? The problem is not the retirement age itself, the problem is the retirement-age recipients who have no qualms about bankrupting future generations so long as they get theirs.
Ditto to this. I have no qualms to increasing the retirement age, but I don't get how we're supposed to get the retirees to go along with it.:(
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: ViRGE
Originally posted by: glenn1
So how do you propose we pass this considering the AARP crowd would scream bloody murder? The problem is not the retirement age itself, the problem is the retirement-age recipients who have no qualms about bankrupting future generations so long as they get theirs.
Ditto to this. I have no qualms to increasing the retirement age, but I don't get how we're supposed to get the retirees to go along with it.:(



We have to go at a more rapid pace than we are going today.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Seems simple enough.

CsG

Simplistic is closer to the truth. When you have so many people who don't make enough money to be able to set aside much, if any money on their own to supplement their retirement, then we will just make them work till they drop?

What a plan!! ROFL. I especially like letting the old people go on disability. When they can't do phyisical labor they will end up working at a fast food joint, not on disablity.

Just because people live longer doesn't mean that they are capable of labor until they are 70 and if they aren't capable of phyiscal labor it doen't automatically follow that that they will qualify for disability. Even if they did, that's would be the next thing the Repug's would be whining about.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Seems simple enough.

CsG

Simplistic is closer to the truth. When you have so many people who don't make enough money to be able to set aside much, if any money on their own to supplement their retirement, then we will just make them work till they drop?

What a plan!! ROFL. I especially like letting the old people go on disability. When they can't do phyisical labor they will end up working at a fast food joint, not on disablity.

Just because people live longer doesn't mean that they are capable of labor until they are 70 and if they aren't capable of phyiscal labor it doen't automatically follow that that they will qualify for disability. Even if they did, that's would be the next thing the Repug's would be whining about.



You did not read the article did you?
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Seems simple enough.

CsG

Simplistic is closer to the truth. When you have so many people who don't make enough money to be able to set aside much, if any money on their own to supplement their retirement, then we will just make them work till they drop?

What a plan!! ROFL. I especially like letting the old people go on disability. When they can't do phyisical labor they will end up working at a fast food joint, not on disablity.

Just because people live longer doesn't mean that they are capable of labor until they are 70 and if they aren't capable of phyiscal labor it doen't automatically follow that that they will qualify for disability. Even if they did, that's would be the next thing the Repug's would be whining about.



You did not read the article did you?


Yes I did:

What about the minority of people whose strenuous jobs or poor health make work after 65 too difficult? The Greenspan Commission, which proposed the original age hike to 67, solved that problem in 1983. Social Security already has a separate benefits program for people with disabilities. "The disability benefits program can be improved to provide cash benefits and Medicare to those between age 62 and the higher normal retirement age who, for reasons of health, are unable to continue working," said the commission.


My point is that when you are unable to continue your job as, say a machinist making $20/hr or digging ditches for $10/hr that you will have to start flipping burgers since you are still capable of working, e.g. not disabled. If one so choses they can do that now by their choice if their health is good, or can do it part time to supplment their SS and still get their SS checks.

Despite what Greenspan is trying to infer, I know better. He says nothing about not being able to preform their current job, he says unable to continue working. To me that means flipping burgers at $6/hr with no health benifits, etc. It will be the people least able to set aside money to supplement their retirement that will suffer and will end up working till they are ready to drop dead. Many people who don't have physical jobs may be able to continue working to age 70. I have a friend who just retired at 70. He love his job and was making so much money he didn't want to retire, but diabetis changed his mind.

Those that can't cxontinue their regular employment won't automatically be put on disablity if they are still able to do some type of employment. This idea looks good on paper, but that's it.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,519
595
126
Raise it to 75.

If you need to retire sooner due to health reasons, then so be it...if you can work...well you are going to.

If you are age 55 or older you get to retire at 65, if you are 50 or older you get to retire at 67. if you are 45 or older you get to retire at 70. Anyone younger than 45, plan on working at least another 30 years.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Raise it to 75.

If you need to retire sooner due to health reasons, then so be it...if you can work...well you are going to.

If you are age 55 or older you get to retire at 65, if you are 50 or older you get to retire at 67. if you are 45 or older you get to retire at 70. Anyone younger than 45, plan on working at least another 30 years.
Now if we can just convince Corporate America to keep them on we might have a solution!
 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,569
901
126
Here's an idea: Put a cap on the percentage earned in government retirement accounts that all the government workers who don't participate in the Social Security system invest in. Take everything made over the cap and put it into the Social Security fund. That's just for starters.
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Originally posted by: conehead433
Here's an idea: Put a cap on the percentage earned in government retirement accounts that all the government workers who don't participate in the Social Security system invest in. Take everything made over the cap and put it into the Social Security fund. That's just for starters.
Huh? I'm lost here. As I read it, you want to put a cap on how much government workers can earn? How is that fair?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Seems simple enough.

CsG

Simplistic is closer to the truth. When you have so many people who don't make enough money to be able to set aside much, if any money on their own to supplement their retirement, then we will just make them work till they drop?

What a plan!! ROFL. I especially like letting the old people go on disability. When they can't do phyisical labor they will end up working at a fast food joint, not on disablity.

Just because people live longer doesn't mean that they are capable of labor until they are 70 and if they aren't capable of phyiscal labor it doen't automatically follow that that they will qualify for disability. Even if they did, that's would be the next thing the Repug's would be whining about.



You did not read the article did you?


Yes I did:

What about the minority of people whose strenuous jobs or poor health make work after 65 too difficult? The Greenspan Commission, which proposed the original age hike to 67, solved that problem in 1983. Social Security already has a separate benefits program for people with disabilities. "The disability benefits program can be improved to provide cash benefits and Medicare to those between age 62 and the higher normal retirement age who, for reasons of health, are unable to continue working," said the commission.


My point is that when you are unable to continue your job as, say a machinist making $20/hr or digging ditches for $10/hr that you will have to start flipping burgers since you are still capable of working, e.g. not disabled. If one so choses they can do that now by their choice if their health is good, or can do it part time to supplment their SS and still get their SS checks.

Despite what Greenspan is trying to infer, I know better. He says nothing about not being able to preform their current job, he says unable to continue working. To me that means flipping burgers at $6/hr with no health benifits, etc. It will be the people least able to set aside money to supplement their retirement that will suffer and will end up working till they are ready to drop dead. Many people who don't have physical jobs may be able to continue working to age 70. I have a friend who just retired at 70. He love his job and was making so much money he didn't want to retire, but diabetis changed his mind.

Those that can't cxontinue their regular employment won't automatically be put on disablity if they are still able to do some type of employment. This idea looks good on paper, but that's it.



you missed this from the first paragraph

Two years ago, Johnson and Steuerle added that the percentage of 55- to 59-year-old men who said health problems interfered with their jobs had declined from more than 27 percent in 1971 to less than 20 percent in 2002.

People are living longer healtheir lives and the retirment age should reflect that.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Two years ago, Johnson and Steuerle added that the percentage of 55- to 59-year-old men who said health problems interfered with their jobs had declined from more than 27 percent in 1971 to less than 20 percent in 2002.

People are living longer healtheir lives and the retirment age should reflect that.[/quote]True but like I said in an earlier post we need to convince Corporate America of that. Age discrimination is worse than any other type of discrimination is the workplace today!

 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,569
901
126
Originally posted by: ViRGE
Originally posted by: conehead433
Here's an idea: Put a cap on the percentage earned in government retirement accounts that all the government workers who don't participate in the Social Security system invest in. Take everything made over the cap and put it into the Social Security fund. That's just for starters.
Huh? I'm lost here. As I read it, you want to put a cap on how much government workers can earn? How is that fair?

How is it fair that government workers can avoid paying Social Security and earn much more in a government run retirement program? One problem I have with that is that they are not contributing one dime to the system. The so-called private investment ability of individuals was going to be capped. If you were savvy enough to make lots of money in your private account anything in excess of a certain percentage would go back into the general fund. My other problem is that the government thinks enough of it's own workers to have a well managed fund that earns far more than money in the Social Security fund. These government workers are all getting a free ride at the expense of the rest of us tax payers. Maybe you should re-examine your statement about fairness.
Seemed to me to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: conehead433
Originally posted by: ViRGE
Originally posted by: conehead433
Here's an idea: Put a cap on the percentage earned in government retirement accounts that all the government workers who don't participate in the Social Security system invest in. Take everything made over the cap and put it into the Social Security fund. That's just for starters.
Huh? I'm lost here. As I read it, you want to put a cap on how much government workers can earn? How is that fair?

How is it fair that government workers can avoid paying Social Security and earn much more in a government run retirement program? One problem I have with that is that they are not contributing one dime to the system. The so-called private investment ability of individuals was going to be capped. If you were savvy enough to make lots of money in your private account anything in excess of a certain percentage would go back into the general fund. My other problem is that the government thinks enough of it's own workers to have a well managed fund that earns far more than money in the Social Security fund. These government workers are all getting a free ride at the expense of the rest of us tax payers. Maybe you should re-examine your statement about fairness.
Seemed to me to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.



I dont beleive federal workers are exempt from social security now. HOwever, they do have a market based retirement plan that they can contribute too.

Before SS taxes are raise again, the SS surpluses must get removed from the hands of congress.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
I agree with Charrison. SS should be re-authored as an off budget entitlement program . . . that's dependent on it's own revenue stream for benefits. In essence, Congress/Bush get full credit for the $568B deficit in Fiscal 2004 while SS surpluses could be directed to personal "private" accounts or Medicare/Medicaid reform (remove all old people from Medicaid rolls to Medicare, plus do something to keep old people healthy . . . or kill 'em).

By the same token, if the coffers are empty in 2042, 2052, 3080, or whenever . . . benefits get whacked.

Republicans of every stripe know SS ain't gonna get reformed if you cannot get the old people on board. But you have to give a little to get a little. In exchange for "ending the looting of SS", new legislation eliminates the cap on FICA, gives a temporary "token" cut in the rate (say 0.2-0.4%), institutes a gradual escalation in the retirement age but continues to allow partial eligibility at 62.

The now real "SS Trust Fund" would pile up cash and it's only a matter of time before Congress tried to raid it but at least it would be in the open instead of the BS going on since 1984. But if we integrated SS with Medicare, then essentially no surplus would materialize while Congress and the old people's lobby would have to decide whether they want Viagra or rent money.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Seems simple enough.

CsG

Simplistic is closer to the truth. When you have so many people who don't make enough money to be able to set aside much, if any money on their own to supplement their retirement, then we will just make them work till they drop?

What a plan!! ROFL. I especially like letting the old people go on disability. When they can't do phyisical labor they will end up working at a fast food joint, not on disablity.

Just because people live longer doesn't mean that they are capable of labor until they are 70 and if they aren't capable of phyiscal labor it doen't automatically follow that that they will qualify for disability. Even if they did, that's would be the next thing the Repug's would be whining about.



You did not read the article did you?


Yes I did:

What about the minority of people whose strenuous jobs or poor health make work after 65 too difficult? The Greenspan Commission, which proposed the original age hike to 67, solved that problem in 1983. Social Security already has a separate benefits program for people with disabilities. "The disability benefits program can be improved to provide cash benefits and Medicare to those between age 62 and the higher normal retirement age who, for reasons of health, are unable to continue working," said the commission.


My point is that when you are unable to continue your job as, say a machinist making $20/hr or digging ditches for $10/hr that you will have to start flipping burgers since you are still capable of working, e.g. not disabled. If one so choses they can do that now by their choice if their health is good, or can do it part time to supplment their SS and still get their SS checks.

Despite what Greenspan is trying to infer, I know better. He says nothing about not being able to preform their current job, he says unable to continue working. To me that means flipping burgers at $6/hr with no health benifits, etc. It will be the people least able to set aside money to supplement their retirement that will suffer and will end up working till they are ready to drop dead. Many people who don't have physical jobs may be able to continue working to age 70. I have a friend who just retired at 70. He love his job and was making so much money he didn't want to retire, but diabetis changed his mind.

Those that can't cxontinue their regular employment won't automatically be put on disablity if they are still able to do some type of employment. This idea looks good on paper, but that's it.



you missed this from the first paragraph

Two years ago, Johnson and Steuerle added that the percentage of 55- to 59-year-old men who said health problems interfered with their jobs had declined from more than 27 percent in 1971 to less than 20 percent in 2002.

People are living longer healtheir lives and the retirment age should reflect that.

Living longer doesn't nessecarily translate to being able to physicaly work that much longer. It also groups all the people (desk job versus physical job) in the same group.

The percentage of 55 to 59 year olds who have had less health problems is a meaninless statistic, we need to know what the RETIREMENT age (65 to 70 year olds) stats are and we need to know that info by job type. Why didn't Johnson and Steuerle include those stat's? Hmmmm??

The fact of the matter is that generally most people doing physical labor are not going to be able to work as long as people who make their money using their brains. Those are generally going to be the same group of people who haven't been able (due to their lower income) to invest and save as much as the others for their retirement.

I already know too many old people who just sit in their house/apartment all day long and waste away because they can't afford to do anything. Many older people who are healthy enough continue to work past retirement age, do volunteer work, etc. but many just aren't strong enough to work any more. After working hard all their lives, I don't agree with making them go thru the indignity of applieing for disability.