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The Natural Gas Crisis: Greens Engineer another Disaster

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Linkage

Most Americans don't know it, but the price of natural gas has increased as much as 700% in the last three years. That's what happens in the marketplace when an essential commodity becomes scarce. It's not that there aren't huge amounts of natural gas. The problem is that access to it has been effectively blocked.





"We're not running out of natural gas, and we're not running out of places to look for natural gas," says Keith Rattie, president of Questar, an energy developer. "However, we are running out of places we are allowed to look for gas."





Why do you think that is? Perhaps it is the same reason that the Clinton-Gore administration put some of the richest supplies of high quality coal off limits to development and fought access to the oil reserves in Alaska? In the case of natural gas The Bush administration's Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham will tell you that environmental restrictions have put nearly half of the huge natural gas reserves on federal lands off limits to use. When the laws concerning federal lands were first written, they included the sale of natural resources. It was understood they were integral to the economy. Environmental laws forbid it. That's why thousands of acres of our national forests just burn to cinders every year.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Sorry, please find a credible source for information. It's not surprising that Right-wing Nutjobs 'R Us would completely dismiss the valid environmental concerns of exploiting these potential reserves, not to mention repeating the same BS about the only way to save our forests is cut them down.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Sorry, please find a credible source for information. It's not surprising that Right-wing Nutjobs 'R Us would completely dismiss the valid environmental concerns of exploiting these potential reserves, not to mention repeating the same BS about the only way to save our forests is cut them down.

what would you call a credible source?

Do you deny that gas prices have been skyrocketing over the past few years?
Do you deny that development has largely stopped on federal lands?
 

AvesPKS

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
4,729
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Sorry, please find a credible source for information. It's not surprising that Right-wing Nutjobs 'R Us would completely dismiss the valid environmental concerns of exploiting these potential reserves, not to mention repeating the same BS about the only way to save our forests is cut them down.

what would you call a credible source?

Do you deny that gas prices have been skyrocketing over the past few years?
Do you deny that development has largely stopped on federal lands?
Yeah, I actually have some inside information on this topic. The reason that prices may have been going up is due to the fact that we don't have very many deep water ports for LNG. This is about to change. The gov is reviewing applications for deepwater LNG ports, one of which is in MD, and is planning on having the NEPA review process done in approximately 18 months.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Maybe the suppliers are manipulating the prices of natural gas. Ever consider that?

Linked

El Paso Inc.
Power Woes Raise Questions Over Control of Gas Pipelines
March 26, 2001
By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr. and LOWELL BERGMAN
Many industry officials question whether regulated pipeline companies are able to favor unregulated sister companies that trade natural gas and are free to maximize profits.

This Houston-based natural gas company is accused of manipulating the energy market in California by withholding capacity through its natural gas pipeline. The pipeline is the largest single source of natural gas for California and capable of providing up to one third of the state's needs for this commodity. The supply and price of natural gas is especially important to California because of the large number of power plants in the state that use gas to produce electricity. The California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) filed a complaint with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) last April accusing El Paso of trying to corner the natural gas market and manipulate the price through its control of pipeline capacity.
FERC: California was swindled

"A key conclusion of this report is that markets for natural gas and electricity in California are inextricably linked, and that dysfunctions in each fed off one another during the crisis," the FERC report says. "Spot gas prices rose to extraordinary levels, facilitating the unprecedented price increase in the electricity market.

"Dysfunctions in the natural gas market appear to stem, at least in part, from efforts to manipulate price indices compiled by trade publications. Reporting of false data and wash trading are examples of efforts to manipulate published price indices."
My local community, Long Beach CA filed suit against our natural gas provider and won.

LBReport.com

LB Will Receive $17 Million From El Paso Natural Gas Settling LB Antitrust Suit...And LB's Share Is Higher Percentage Of Its Total Damages Than Any Other Party Will Receive In El Paso Settlements
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Sorry, please find a credible source for information. It's not surprising that Right-wing Nutjobs 'R Us would completely dismiss the valid environmental concerns of exploiting these potential reserves, not to mention repeating the same BS about the only way to save our forests is cut them down.

what would you call a credible source?

Do you deny that gas prices have been skyrocketing over the past few years?
Do you deny that development has largely stopped on federal lands?
Yeah, I actually have some inside information on this topic. The reason that prices may have been going up is due to the fact that we don't have very many deep water ports for LNG. This is about to change. The gov is reviewing applications for deepwater LNG ports, one of which is in MD, and is planning on having the NEPA review process done in approximately 18 months.

Why are we having to import?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Maybe the suppliers are manipulating the prices of natural gas. Ever consider that?

Linked

El Paso Inc.
Power Woes Raise Questions Over Control of Gas Pipelines
March 26, 2001
By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr. and LOWELL BERGMAN
Many industry officials question whether regulated pipeline companies are able to favor unregulated sister companies that trade natural gas and are free to maximize profits.

This Houston-based natural gas company is accused of manipulating the energy market in California by withholding capacity through its natural gas pipeline. The pipeline is the largest single source of natural gas for California and capable of providing up to one third of the state's needs for this commodity. The supply and price of natural gas is especially important to California because of the large number of power plants in the state that use gas to produce electricity. The California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) filed a complaint with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) last April accusing El Paso of trying to corner the natural gas market and manipulate the price through its control of pipeline capacity.
FERC: California was swindled

"A key conclusion of this report is that markets for natural gas and electricity in California are inextricably linked, and that dysfunctions in each fed off one another during the crisis," the FERC report says. "Spot gas prices rose to extraordinary levels, facilitating the unprecedented price increase in the electricity market.

"Dysfunctions in the natural gas market appear to stem, at least in part, from efforts to manipulate price indices compiled by trade publications. Reporting of false data and wash trading are examples of efforts to manipulate published price indices."
My local community, Long Beach CA filed suit against our natural gas provider and won.

LBReport.com

LB Will Receive $17 Million From El Paso Natural Gas Settling LB Antitrust Suit...And LB's Share Is Higher Percentage Of Its Total Damages Than Any Other Party Will Receive In El Paso Settlements
Care to take a broader view of the natural gas market?

Want to address why demand for natural gas is up?
Want to address why supply for nataral gas is not rising with consumption?
 

AvesPKS

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
4,729
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Sorry, please find a credible source for information. It's not surprising that Right-wing Nutjobs 'R Us would completely dismiss the valid environmental concerns of exploiting these potential reserves, not to mention repeating the same BS about the only way to save our forests is cut them down.

what would you call a credible source?

Do you deny that gas prices have been skyrocketing over the past few years?
Do you deny that development has largely stopped on federal lands?
Yeah, I actually have some inside information on this topic. The reason that prices may have been going up is due to the fact that we don't have very many deep water ports for LNG. This is about to change. The gov is reviewing applications for deepwater LNG ports, one of which is in MD, and is planning on having the NEPA review process done in approximately 18 months.

Why are we having to import?
I don't know...but I do know that, very soon we will have a larger infrastructure for offloading the LNG.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Sorry, please find a credible source for information. It's not surprising that Right-wing Nutjobs 'R Us would completely dismiss the valid environmental concerns of exploiting these potential reserves, not to mention repeating the same BS about the only way to save our forests is cut them down.

what would you call a credible source?

Do you deny that gas prices have been skyrocketing over the past few years?
Do you deny that development has largely stopped on federal lands?
Yeah, I actually have some inside information on this topic. The reason that prices may have been going up is due to the fact that we don't have very many deep water ports for LNG. This is about to change. The gov is reviewing applications for deepwater LNG ports, one of which is in MD, and is planning on having the NEPA review process done in approximately 18 months.

Why are we having to import?
I don't know...but I do know that, very soon we will have a larger infrastructure for offloading the LNG.
Do you know where we will be importing from?
 

Bleep

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,972
0
0
Why are we having to import?
Probably the same reasons that we import most stuff, it is cheaper over there. Drive across Colorado or Wyoming and you will see where a lot of it is going. They are burning it off in standpipes. It is the same in Nebraska. I have not been across texas but I surmise it is the same because they are all owned by the same big corps.

Bleep
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Considering the US would have to build an infrastructure to extract natural gas it may be more economical to ship LNG from countries that routinely burn the stuff to get rid of it. Canada has mad natural gas supplies but there's no pipeline to bring it to the states . . . yet. Demand exploded as power companies increased consumption to replace coal . . . even clean-coal sux for the environment. Eventually the US will need to construct an infrastructure to exploit our natural gas but it makes a lot more sense to buy cheap LNG on the world market.
 

AvesPKS

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
4,729
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Sorry, please find a credible source for information. It's not surprising that Right-wing Nutjobs 'R Us would completely dismiss the valid environmental concerns of exploiting these potential reserves, not to mention repeating the same BS about the only way to save our forests is cut them down.

what would you call a credible source?

Do you deny that gas prices have been skyrocketing over the past few years?
Do you deny that development has largely stopped on federal lands?
Yeah, I actually have some inside information on this topic. The reason that prices may have been going up is due to the fact that we don't have very many deep water ports for LNG. This is about to change. The gov is reviewing applications for deepwater LNG ports, one of which is in MD, and is planning on having the NEPA review process done in approximately 18 months.

Why are we having to import?
I don't know...but I do know that, very soon we will have a larger infrastructure for offloading the LNG.
Do you know where we will be importing from?
I was looking at some charts and Canada will be a big player in the supply market.
 

AvesPKS

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
4,729
0
0
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Considering the US would have to build an infrastructure to extract natural gas it may be more economical to ship LNG from countries that routinely burn the stuff to get rid of it. Canada has mad natural gas supplies but there's no pipeline to bring it to the states . . . yet. Demand exploded as power companies increased consumption to replace coal . . . even clean-coal sux for the environment. Eventually the US will need to construct an infrastructure to exploit our natural gas but it makes a lot more sense to buy cheap LNG on the world market.
Right...I'm assuming that's why we are going ahead with our LNG deepwater ports...
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,365
3,485
126
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Considering the US would have to build an infrastructure to extract natural gas it may be more economical to ship LNG from countries that routinely burn the stuff to get rid of it. Canada has mad natural gas supplies but there's no pipeline to bring it to the states . . . yet. Demand exploded as power companies increased consumption to replace coal . . . even clean-coal sux for the environment. Eventually the US will need to construct an infrastructure to exploit our natural gas but it makes a lot more sense to buy cheap LNG on the world market.
There are pipelines from Canada to the US, which is a major reason why Canadians are also paying abnormally high prices. Let's not forget that NG consumption has been rising rapidly, due to new power plants and what not.

I'd also like to comment on the burning of NG: Are you confusing Sour Gas with Natural Gas? Those stacks burning near oil fields are burning Sour Gas, which is considered useless.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
The Natural Gas suppliers in the U.S. will be crying that they have no supply this year to try and reason why Gas prices have had to go up 700% in the last 3 years while we get reports that they have been burning off the potential stock pile.

----------------------------------------

Shell Oil Co. A $49 million settlement has been reached between Shell Oil Co. and the federal government in a lawsuit filed over the unauthorized release and burning of large amounts of natural gas from seven platforms in the Gulf of Mexico. According to the suit, most of the gas was disposed of, through processes known as flaring and venting, from 1994 to 1998, however the company did not have permission to burn off the gas, and did not pay the government the required royalties on it. (Aug-06-03) [ECONOMIC TIMES]
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
1
71

There's a fundamental reason for the latest blackout on the East Coast. The United States of America needs more power facilities.
This is incorrect.

Nearly every expert agrees that the USA actually has over capacity in the power generation area.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Care to take a broader view of the natural gas market?
Want to address why demand for natural gas is up?
Want to address why supply for nataral gas is not rising with consumption?
Why is that Charrison? I'm sure you're dying to tell me it's not price manipulation. So go ahead. ;)

 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
71
Originally posted by: Ferocious
There's a fundamental reason for the latest blackout on the East Coast. The United States of America needs more power facilities.
This is incorrect.

Nearly every expert agrees that the USA actually has over capacity in the power generation area.
an expert on CNN yesterday: "There is more then enough capacity but we are a superpower with a third world power grid".

 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,505
1
81
The price of NG is capable of going up a lot given only a small increase in demand because it is an inelasticy commodity. You can't go without NG in the winter to heat you home can you? So people are will to pay almost any price for an irreplaceable commodity. There may be manipulation involved too but even without manipulation we'd be having problems.

This is the fault of the damn NG combined cycle generators. NG is too valuable to burn for electricity.

Opening federal lands to exploitation should be done since it would allow us to avoid having to import LNG which is expensive. But it's not an immediate solution to our problem since it would take a couple of years to bring new resources online.
 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,696
0
76
Originally posted by: charrison
Linkage

Most Americans don't know it, but the price of natural gas has increased as much as 700% in the last three years. That's what happens in the marketplace when an essential commodity becomes scarce. It's not that there aren't huge amounts of natural gas. The problem is that access to it has been effectively blocked.





"We're not running out of natural gas, and we're not running out of places to look for natural gas," says Keith Rattie, president of Questar, an energy developer. "However, we are running out of places we are allowed to look for gas."





Why do you think that is? Perhaps it is the same reason that the Clinton-Gore administration put some of the richest supplies of high quality coal off limits to development and fought access to the oil reserves in Alaska? In the case of natural gas The Bush administration's Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham will tell you that environmental restrictions have put nearly half of the huge natural gas reserves on federal lands off limits to use. When the laws concerning federal lands were first written, they included the sale of natural resources. It was understood they were integral to the economy. Environmental laws forbid it. That's why thousands of acres of our national forests just burn to cinders every year.

I'd like to say that article is nothing but hot air. I don't read right wing progandist websites for science news, especially enviromental related news. I suggest you don't either, it keeps the brain cell count in healthy amounts.

To make sure this thread isn't completely wasted, I feel obligated to post the Bushism of the day. Yes and it relates to the topic at hand too.

"Natural gas is hemispheric. I like to call it hemispheric in nature because it is a product that we can find in our neighborhoods." ? George W. Bush, December 20, 2000





 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: charrison
Linkage

Most Americans don't know it, but the price of natural gas has increased as much as 700% in the last three years. That's what happens in the marketplace when an essential commodity becomes scarce. It's not that there aren't huge amounts of natural gas. The problem is that access to it has been effectively blocked.





"We're not running out of natural gas, and we're not running out of places to look for natural gas," says Keith Rattie, president of Questar, an energy developer. "However, we are running out of places we are allowed to look for gas."





Why do you think that is? Perhaps it is the same reason that the Clinton-Gore administration put some of the richest supplies of high quality coal off limits to development and fought access to the oil reserves in Alaska? In the case of natural gas The Bush administration's Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham will tell you that environmental restrictions have put nearly half of the huge natural gas reserves on federal lands off limits to use. When the laws concerning federal lands were first written, they included the sale of natural resources. It was understood they were integral to the economy. Environmental laws forbid it. That's why thousands of acres of our national forests just burn to cinders every year.

I'd like to say that article is nothing but hot air. I don't read right wing progandist websites for science news, especially enviromental related news. I suggest you don't either, it keeps the brain cell count in healthy amounts.

To make sure this thread isn't completely wasted, I feel obligated to post the Bushism of the day. Yes and it relates to the topic at hand too.

"Natural gas is hemispheric. I like to call it hemispheric in nature because it is a product that we can find in our neighborhoods." ? George W. Bush, December 20, 2000
I thought attacking the source was a show of weakness or proves you can't argue with the substance contained within? Oh well....do as I say....not as I.......;)

"Everyone's doing it....come on it'll be fun"

CkG
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
To quote conservative members of this forum:

OMG, THE SKY IS FALLING!;)

Come on folks. There are a large number of possible power sources to take adavantage of NG is just one of them, and they are not all fosil fuel based:D. This country has a strong tradition of innovation. If prices are too high for one fuel source, we should be able to find another (and make a profit doing it too).

Depending on someone freeing up some land for NG (or oil, or uranium, or coal) exploration is just as shortsighted as building your home in an area subject to high rates of natural disasters.
 

AvesPKS

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
4,729
0
0
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
To quote conservative members of this forum:

OMG, THE SKY IS FALLING!;)

Come on folks. There are a large number of possible power sources to take adavantage of NG is just one of them, and they are not all fosil fuel based:D. This country has a strong tradition of innovation. If prices are too high for one fuel source, we should be able to find another (and make a profit doing it too).

Depending on someone freeing up some land for NG (or oil, or uranium, or coal) exploration is just as shortsighted as building your home in an area subject to high rates of natural disasters.
What do you mean, "freeing up land for NG"?
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: AvesPKS


What do you mean, "freeing up land for NG"?
Sorry if I used the term "land". I am aware that large amounts of oil and NG are found and extracted off the coast. Just because demolition and construction is under water does not mean that it has no effects.
 

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