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The N30 will be on time!!!!

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Laugh all you will about the driver fiascoes, but the fact remains. I spent countless hours and endured countless headaches with my Radeon 8500 Retail, as well as the 8500DV. I really wanted an AIW 8500 128MB but after the previous experiences ... no way. Which is why I've stated that I'll avoid Radeon 9700 until such time as drivers are proven stable -- and not just in synthetic benchmarks or Q3A. 🙂

The great thing about nVidia is that everything just works. Much akin to the AMD vs Intel debates. If you've got hours to spend pissing with 90 different driver sets and mixing and matching parts of one driver set to another, by all means, ATi is for you. It took me less than 30 seconds to get my Ti4200 installed, start to finish. And I've never had a single glitch or problem with a game title. Did I mention it spanks the 8500 too (especially running 305/580) 😀

I'm willing to give 9700 a shot -- but it has to prove itself first. Especially with the price tag. nVidia has nothing to prove. GeForce 4 smokes the competition right now, and the 4200 series are incredible values. I'd have no problem dropping $400-$500 (maybe even a little more) for NV30 without waiting a month or two for all the reviews and comments.
 
For those who say that you've never had problems with the Radeon 8500 and it's drivers...

When I had my 8500, I was in the same boat. I would ask people over and over, "What are the issues? I'm not seeing any."

Then I saw the huge problems people were having with GTA3. That's a game I knew I wanted to play, so it concerned me.

But the final straw was Dungeon Siege. With the Catalyst drivers, DS wasn't playable until you disabled all shadows.


My point?... My point is, just because YOU haven't seen any problems, certainly doesn't prove that they don't exist.
 
"Has the NV30 taped out yet?"
"Historically Nvidia done a good job with tapeouts etc... We're in the process of wrapping it up"
"So it has not been taped out yet?"
"We're in the process of wrapping it up so the answer is not"
Click to expand...
After listening to the TC, I believe the speaker stated the "answer is no", but people have quoted him saying ?not?. However, that doesn?t matter because we all know what he intended to say. What does stand out is this statement: "our expectation is still to have it for the holiday season". So December, or thereafter looks a bit more probable IMO.

I?ve had problems with ATI cards in the past (Rage128 Pro) with Win2k. I?m not going to suggest this will be the case with the R300. Though it still lingers in my mind like VIA chipsets.

Personally I?m not in any rush for a new card, my Ti4200 is fine for now, until games like DOOM III force me to upgrade to the latest from ATI or Nvidia, however Nvidia will always be considered first for me because every nvidia card I?ve ever owned always worked well with all my games/applications/operating systems (since TNT model).
 
But the final straw was Dungeon Siege. With the Catalyst drivers, DS wasn't playable until you disabled all shadows.
Click to expand...

That's weird Wingz. DS runs great on both my AIW 7500 and my 8500 with or without shadows on. I actually play with shadows on full. What Catalyst drivers were you using? I've used both of the first two Catalyst releases and I haven't had issues with either of them...


The great thing about nVidia is that everything just works. Much akin to the AMD vs Intel debates. If you've got hours to spend pissing with 90 different driver sets and mixing and matching parts of one driver set to another, by all means, ATi is for you. It took me less than 30 seconds to get my Ti4200 installed, start to finish. And I've never had a single glitch or problem with a game title. Did I mention it spanks the 8500 too (especially running 305/580)
Click to expand...

Exaggerating a bit are we? 90 different drivers sets and mixing and matching? WTF are you talking about? Ati has beta drivers leaked all the time and so does Nvidia. Nvidia never has any issues huh? *cough* Infinite Loop *cough*...

 
Originally posted by: Wingznut PEZ
For those who say that you've never had problems with the Radeon 8500 and it's drivers...

When I had my 8500, I was in the same boat. I would ask people over and over, "What are the issues? I'm not seeing any."

Then I saw the huge problems people were having with GTA3. That's a game I knew I wanted to play, so it concerned me.

But the final straw was Dungeon Siege. With the Catalyst drivers, DS wasn't playable until you disabled all shadows.


My point?... My point is, just because YOU haven't seen any problems, certainly doesn't prove that they don't exist.
Click to expand...

I would blame VIA and individual game developers before I blame ATI. ATI's biggest mistake was, and I say WAS, their negligence to drivers, highlighted by the MAXX fiasco. Other than that, problems were largely isolated. Sure you may be able to reproduce them on specific hardware, but at the same time nVidia had their own issues too. Many Hercules Geforce boards wouldn't post on certain P4 platforms, etc. And their 2d quality's always been subpar. Just compare my GF2MX to my Radeon VE PCI.

Honestly, I like both companies. I probably jumped on the RIVA128 bandwagon long before 99% of you guys, who were too busy kissing 3DFX's butt. But today, we're seeing ATI give nVidia a run for its money, which is always good no matter who you like - because it spurs competition and lowers prices.

 
how exactly is it that a NV30 thread turns into an ATI thread?

Who knows.

I just bought my Ti-4400- And I am happy that way.

(I really wanted ATI hardware with NVidia's Driver team doing the drivers...)
 
I admit, the first drivers for the 8500 weren't the best. However, the first revision afterwards was quite a leap forward. The latest Catalyst drivers have been excellent in terms of performance and stability. Oh yeah, and what about those infinite loop errors mass numbers of NVIDIA users were suffering from? Did everyone forget about that?
 
Speaking as a gamer and Nvidia card user for too many years I care to remember(back to TNT days) I would say Nvidia drivers for gaming are great in general.

I`ve never had any problems even with my two VIA boards and Nvidia combo,as to the ATi drivers well I`ve never used an ATi card because of the old reports of ATi driver quality,that may or not have changed , but most gamers want good performance with maximum stability with video card drivers & for quite a long time Nvidia has been the no.1 choice.

Some of my friends have had problems with ATI drivers while my other friends with Nvidia drivers have been fine,don`t get me wrong I really like ATi as a company but when your friends & you also read and hear reports with ATi driver problems it does make you think twice (well for gamers it does).

No company has 100% perfect driver record but for me Nvidia come close.
I hope ATi do improve their drivers because I know lots of Nvidia users that would use ATi cards for gaming(including me).

Getting back on topic I hope the NV30 is not delayed because my GF2 Ti is just hanging in at the moment.


🙂
 
I got a Dell Geforce4 ti4200, and the 2D is awesome. I've been through Built by ATI Radeon8500s, but this IMO, is better (well the last time i can remember 🙂 , but we'll see once school comes around). If Dell had their ti4200s for sale, I'd definitely pick one up. Its a good overclocker too.

And I've never had any problems with dungeon siege + ATI Radeon 8500. So far, all the games/software I've used on the Radeon8500 (the driver revision before catalyst) worked flawlessly.

I jumped on the riva128 bandwagon, and never looked back 😀
 
i think as far as being released by december..sure..maybe....

but then again...i think over at digitimes, they said the TSMC was having yield problems under %16. that's pretty bad. so you might get nv30 in december. all 1000 of them.


as far as what anand says.....ummm.....not comment......seems like his preview of 9700 was just so he could say more about nv30.....
 
Look, some people have problems with ATI drivers, some people have problems with nVidia drivers. No company is perfect.

intim83,
WTH difference does it make how many posts somebody has made? There are plenty of reasons why I would listen to Wingznut PEZ more than some of the other people, but his post count isn't one of them.
 
Remember, competition is a GOOD thing! We should all be hoping that NVidia releases a competiting product by the end of the year, because it will help us all get a good deal on new video card for Christmas.

There is no way in hell that I would pay over $300 for a video card, no matter how fast it is. That's why I'm hoping that this continued competition between ATI and NVidia will help to keep the prices on high-end gaming cards at a reasonable level.
 
Insane3D wrote:

"Exaggerating a bit are we? 90 different drivers sets and mixing and matching? WTF are you talking about? Ati has beta drivers leaked all the time and so does Nvidia. Nvidia never has any issues huh? *cough* Infinite Loop *cough*..."

Not really. How many "beta" or shall I say "leaked" (same difference 😛) driver sets have "appeared" for the 8500 series since launch? Sure there are plenty of Detonator betas floating around -- look how many different labels are producing nVidia-based products. Many of the "beta" sets are specific to a certain vendor. And regardless, nVidia always has a WHQL certified driver set for download. Not some hodge-podge driver set that "fixes" one issue and breaks ten more. I'm sorry, but ATi has a lot of work to do. 8500's drivers are much, much better than before -- but they ought to be. Christ, look how long the 8500 has been out! 🙂

As for the "infinite loop" fiasco, it isn't my fault people keep purchasing shoddy VIA-based mainboards. I've never once encountered the "infinite loop" on a single non-VIA mainboard, and I'm literally talking about tens of them. (And yes, I am aware of isolated reports of people with, for example, Intel i815 chipsets also experiencing this issue. I did not.)
 
Originally posted by: Insane3D
That's weird Wingz. DS runs great on both my AIW 7500 and my 8500 with or without shadows on. I actually play with shadows on full. What Catalyst drivers were you using? I've used both of the first two Catalyst releases and I haven't had issues with either of them...
Click to expand...
It was the first release of the Catalyst drivers. I switched to a GF4 before those drivers were updated.
Originally posted by: CrazySaint
WTH difference does it make how many posts somebody has made? There are plenty of reasons why I would listen to Wingznut PEZ more than some of the other people, but his post count isn't one of them.
Click to expand...
Thanks, CS! 🙂

And yes... Post count doesn't mean jack!

Edit: Wait a minute! Who are the "other some" that you would listen to more than me?

😉
 
In this thread, imtim83 said:
Also i like the other video card companys too. I do not like one more than the other. It would be really cool to have ATI and nvidia have the same driver quality! So far it seems like the R300 has very good driver quality which is good for people who get it! I sure do want one really bad i will admit that but i just got a Leadtek GF4 ti 4400 video card because i really did not want to wait because i knew it would be released this soon but not intill stores till a month and a half before or after the review. I know it suppose to be out in 30 days! I hope less because i really want to see it in action in all the tests review sites give it espically with anandtechs cpu scale test with it! That will be very interesting! I just wanted to post so i could give ATI credit for doing good and to say i still liking Nvidia too. I like both the same level. Whoever buys a R300 after like real tests or before i wish you the best of luck and now you can beat all of my scores and everyone elses!

I am looking forward in the future what ATI and Nvidia will bring! Hope its even a bigger leap for both!
Click to expand...

I would say that that was a very good, balanced opinion. So, imtim83, what's happened between then and now that turned you into an nVidia fanboy?
 
Originally posted by: Wingznut PEZ
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Thanks, CS! 🙂
Click to expand...

Most welcome. I've always appreciated the fact that even though you work for Intel, you've always given fair opinions of AMD chips.

And yes... Post count doesn't mean jack!

Edit: Wait a minute! Who are the "other some" that you would listen to more than me?

😉
Click to expand...

hahaha 😉
Click to expand...
 
Not really. How many "beta" or shall I say "leaked" (same difference ) driver sets have "appeared" for the 8500 series since launch? Sure there are plenty of Detonator betas floating around -- look how many different labels are producing nVidia-based products. Many of the "beta" sets are specific to a certain vendor. And regardless, nVidia always has a WHQL certified driver set for download. Not some hodge-podge driver set that "fixes" one issue and breaks ten more. I'm sorry, but ATi has a lot of work to do. 8500's drivers are much, much better than before -- but they ought to be. Christ, look how long the 8500 has been out!
Click to expand...

Ok, let's look at the drivers that have been released inthe last two months...June and July of 2002.


Looking at Guru3D's Nvidia driver list, not third party, but Nvidia leaked or official detonator's, I see the following releases...

Detonator 29.42 - 6/4/02
Detonator 29.60 - 6/12/02
Detonator 29.80 - 6/24/02
Detonator 30.30 - 7/12/02
Detonator 30.00 - 7/22/02 ( 😕 )

Now, on the same site, the Ati drivers..

ATI Radeon Drivers 7.73 - 6/8/02 (First Catalyst Release)
ATI Radeon Drivers 7.74 - 7/4/02 (Second Catalyst Release)


So, where all these "hodge podge" driver sets? Also, AFAIK, both Catalyst driver releases are WHQL drivers..



As for the "infinite loop" fiasco, it isn't my fault people keep purchasing shoddy VIA-based mainboards. I've never once encountered the "infinite loop" on a single non-VIA mainboard, and I'm literally talking about tens of them. (And yes, I am aware of isolated reports of people with, for example, Intel i815 chipsets also experiencing this issue. I did not.)
Click to expand...

Well, when I first setup my i845G board, the Epox 4G4A+, I was using my Gainward 128mb Ti200, and I mistakenly used one of the older Detonator sets...28.xx or something, and voilla...I got the Infinite Loop error. This is not a Via issue, as much as you would like it to be, and the file at fault was "Nvdisp.dll" or something.....that's an Nvidia driver compenent.

🙂
 
This is not a Via issue, as much as you would like it to be, and the file at fault was "Nvdisp.dll" or something.....that's an Nvidia driver compenent.
Click to expand...

Bullsh1t. It's is very well known that this issue affects different vendors, including ATI cards. In fact, infinite loop bug is listed in ATI FAQ. And searching Rage3d, you can find a lot of threads on this subject.

Blame VIA. Blame MS. Blame [insert your hated company here]. Infinite loop is not a Nvidia problem. Their drivers may be little aggressive when it comes to memory timings and such, but perform well within spec.

Leon
 
Originally posted by: Leon
This is not a Via issue, as much as you would like it to be, and the file at fault was "Nvdisp.dll" or something.....that's an Nvidia driver compenent.
Click to expand...

Bullsh1t. It's is very well known that this issue affects different vendors, including ATI cards. In fact, infinite loop bug is listed in ATI FAQ. And searching Rage3d, you can find a lot of threads on this subject.

Blame VIA. Blame MS. Blame [insert your hated company here]. Infinite loop is not a Nvidia problem. Their drivers may be little aggressive when it comes to memory timings and such, but perform well within spec.

Leon
Click to expand...

I never specifaclly said it was Nvidia's fault. I just mentioned that I've only had the bug occur on my systems with an Nvidia card, and the file that was at fault was part of the Nvidia drivers. I never said this never happens with other cards or vendors, I was just pointing out that this was not an issue that only occurs on Via chipsets like Pabster said.

Personally, if I have a problem with a piece of hardware, like a GF3 card, that can be recreated on a AMD/Via or Intel/Intel setup, and the file at fault is a nvidia file that is part of the Nvidia driver set, is it out of line for me to consider Nvidia at fault? Maybe I'm wrong, but at least I'm not just blaming anyone I feel like...

Also, I think we can agree this was a lot more common with Nvidia cards than ATI ones. The SBLive compatibility issues also happened on some i815 boards, but everyone to this day just knows the problem as the "SB Live/Via" incompatibility. IIRC, it was actually more of an issue with a poorly written ACPI header in the Live's drivers than a direct hardware conflict...but I digress...


 
Originally posted by: bluemax
Oh that's right... I forgot. ATI can't make drivers. That's right. No ATI owners can play any games at all. Or only a handful of the most popular.... nVidia never makes a mistake and never releases bad drivers. nVidia cards work in all motherboards too. And the best news is that nVidia leaks out a new driver every second week.... all these revisions are for people complaining about ATI problems!!
Yeah!!

rolleye.gif

We've heard it all before and it's a pretty thin argument. There's PLENTY of ATI owners that would disagree with you, and rightly so.
The hardware is excellent. The drivers are excellent.
Get over it.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%. I don't plan on buying nvidia card during this lifetime. One reason is the pricing of their cards.:Q I never had a problem with any of the ATI drivers either.
 
Jeez. NVIDIA has one problem with their drivers and Pabster has to go and try to blame that on VIA. I have never really had any kind of problem with any piece of hardware that I could not resolve. I use Windows 2000, VIA boards, and SB Live! value, and a Radeon 8500. If anyone is prone to problems it is I, but I have none. I think if you know what you are doing there shouldn't be any problems. Of course, there are sometimes things out of the user's control, but not that often.
 
Ok I like ATI and Nvidia. I hope the ATI 9700 does do well with drivers and everything else. Then when nvidia releases their new card the ATI 9700 can go down in price which will make it more affordable. So i guess if we don't have the money for the next nvidia card we can get the R300 later for $250 to $300. If it goes down that low. I wouldn't mine having ATI and Nvidia doing good. Which seems like it will happen which is a good thing. I am neither a Nvidia or a ATI fan.
 
Look, 3-4 product cycles isnt NEARLY enough for me to feel 100% comfortable, the Rage128/Fury/Maxx days were not that long ago what 1-2 years?. I have/had and sold quite a bit of different types of hardware. I'm not the hardware MAN or anything, but I've been around quite a bit. Probably built 30-40 systems in the last 3 years. I was an "early" adopter of Win2k and alot of my ATI driver issues came with that. I had a few REAL bad exerpeicnes (rage 128.....I DARE you to take the drivers that shipped with that and do anything with them) with ATI hardware. so naturally i gravitated towards the nvidia products. and have shy'ed away from ATI ever since. I still hear about frequent problems with ATI drivers (though alot less for sure) so I've just stuck with what I know. the 8500 launch didnt help restore my faith much, that Quark thing irk'd me some and some people had MAJOR problems. Having not owned a Via based amd motherboard for over 2 years I've never seen the infinte loop bug nor even really know what it is. the win2k refresh thing was kind of annoying but thats been fixed for months.

What I love about nvidia is i can grab anything from a TNT vanta 8 meg to a Ti 4600 (thats what almost 4 years of products?) throw it into basically ANY computer. win95/98/98se/ME/Win2k/NT/XP download (1) driver install it and be DONE! thats it. no fuss no hassle, Oh I'm running a TNT witht he latest dets and I want to put in a G3 ti 200, no problem! I dont even need to re-install the damn drivers!. windows just goes and grabs the corresponding file installs it and its done, (on the later os'es) Add the fact that I literally cannot think of one game that does not work properly on nvidia gpus at all (is there any?) its just iceing on the cake.

Can you do all that with the last 3-4 years of ATI products? (really, I dont know...not an attack) If not then I still feel justified keeping my skepticism.

Raw power is nothing without controll, ATI has always had the Raw Power, but do they have the controll? this is something that for me the jury is still out on. maybe the 9700 will make me a believer. I hope it does, I want both companies to do excellent!
 
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