The Multifaceted Tragedy of Vietnam

[Fanatical Meat]

There is always another side, Vietnam is a complicated question so I believe there was no perfect solution.

Brief slightly OT life experience.

Around 20 years ago, I worked with a guy from Cambodia. He was a legal resident and had the work visa nothing illegal about the guy. He was studying up for the Citizenship test I assumed and I believe others assumed he was new to the US. Once he passed and became a Citizen someone in the office asked him why he came here and he said:
My Father was a Dr and my Mom was like a nurse. We lived in a small clinic type place. One night some Soldiers came and shot my Dad, they took my Mom outside and shot her. My Aunt begged with them enough to let us and my Cousins leave so we left.
He then explained what he remembered about a long, long walk without footwear and getting on a French ship then later being transferred to a US ship.

He was around my age so I'd guess it was slightly after we left Vietnam.

 

[Meghan54]

Tens of thousands? Sounds pretty conservative, especially when you consider the far-reaching effects of that genocide powder.

Children are still being born, to this day, horribly deformed due entirely to the acts of Americans. When's the US going to clean up all that Agent Orange?

Fixed my post....I'm getting old and forget how horrendous it was. Lost two good friends to Vietnam. I was spared only because I tested well when I went in.

 

[VVV]

VietNam was, and still is, indeed a complicated situation. VietNam was never 'liberated' itself from China influence over thousands of years. The only period it had somewhat a different path was during the French colonization and coincide with the weak China during that same period.

With the rise of communism during the beginning of 20th century and all the events that leads to the demise of French colonization around the world. The Viet Minh took over the vacuum power in 1945 after WWII. The country split in half similar to what happened in Korea. It was also the moment when Viet Nam fail right back into China control. Ho Chi Minh was Mao pet. He behaved like that everytime they met. He wanted to play that role even thought they started together at the same level as Cominterns earlier. He needed that 'protection' because it was very obvious that he will not able to handle the internal challenge that came from the two most vicious opponents : Le Duan and Le Duc Tho. Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nguyen Giap were gradually pushed aside (Mao knew this) and toward the end, they were simply symbolic figures for population. Vo Nguyen Giap were humiliated many times for the rest of his life because he was no 'general' by his opponent definition. They don't hate him because he was popular. It is a myth, they hated him because he was a small time rascal trying to play in the big league of cosa nostra. Ho Chi Minh was forbidden to marry his love from China because he bullshitted earlier on how he 'scarified' for his country to stay single hence keeping all his energy. This myth is somewhat today a joke among young Vietnamese but it was delivered that way. Ho Chi Minh had many wives, he was more a womanizer than a political leader.

The war between North and South Viet Nam would have happened no matter what. The US military did the right thing (at that moment) to put boots on ground because nothing would have prevented that war and they probably don't want another D day after all those battles fighting from the worse possible scenarios during WWII (Pacific) and Korea.

During the history of VietNam and China, there were always a force that took over power, it's a pipe dream to argue about a peaceful resolution between the two sides. The US intervention at that time had only one possible good outcome: South Korea 2. However, the culture differences prevent that to happen and the South Vietnam government was just too corrupted to even thinking about fighting the war of self determination. The population was also just enjoyed the presence of US military (and economically) and close theirs eyes to the danger at the doorstep.

I can go on to tell the following up after the fall of Saigon and how VietNam is 'taught' a lesson by China on the two conflicts (1979, 1984) since Le Duan thought he could break from China and side with Russia

There're not much to understand about the 'culture' behind the VietNam war, it was simply a proxy war by great powers and used by internal fractions as an occasion to gain power. Watch the document : unwinnable war by BBC in Afghanistan and everything related to VietNam war is indeed present in that document. Just replace the Talibans by the North Communists.

And if you follow the story closely, you will understand that the reason why Kim Jong Un lost sleep is never the imperialists (USA or South Korea), the reason why he will do whatever to stock nuclear weapons is to keep the real dangerous force to back stab him. The execution of his uncle and assassination of his half brother are a direct clear message. He will sometimes show some progress in long range missiles but most of the time, it will be medium range testing. Japan may be the target ? Or the four big locations in China ?

In that corner of the world, you fear your brother, your best friend, your comrades more than any external power and be ready to use it as occasion arise to reach your goal.

 

[Svnla]

I can go on to tell the following up after the fall of Saigon and how VietNam is 'taught' a lesson by China on the two conflicts (1979, 1984) since Le Duan thought he could break from China and side with Russia

.

Taught a lesson? Where did you get that information? Global Times? Xinhua?

In the winter of 1978, when Deng Xiaoping made his threat of a “lesson,” more than 80,000 Chinese troops were sent across the border into Vietnam. Chinese Deputy Defense Minister Su Yu boasted of being able to take Hanoi in a week, but the untested and under-equipped People’s Liberation Army (PLA) met fierce resistance from battle-hardened Vietnamese forces deployed across the frontier’s limestone karsts. The Chinese were slaughtered by local militia from positions that had been utilized for centuries against invaders from the north.

...analysts have estimate that as many as 50,000 soldiers died during the confrontation.

http://time.com/100417/china-vietnam-sino-vietnamese-war-south-china-sea/


Invaders captured by the local Vietnamese female militia members because the main Vietnamese military force was busy in Cambodia and stayed there for over 10 years:

Most observers doubted that China would risk another war with Vietnam in the near future. Gerald Segal, in his 1985 book Defending China, concluded that China's 1979 war against Vietnam was a complete failure: "China failed to force a Vietnamese withdrawal from [Cambodia], failed to end border clashes, failed to cast doubt on the strength of the Soviet power, failed to dispel the image of China as a paper tiger, and failed to draw the United States into an anti-Soviet coalition."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/prc-vietnam.htm

VietNam was never 'liberated' itself from China influence over thousands of years. The only period it had somewhat a different path was during the French colonization and coincide with the weak China during that same period.

Really? Then who kicked out the chinese for good in 938 AD? Who slaughtered the fearsome Mongols (along with the chinese concubines and slaves), not one, not two, but three times? Who slaughtered the Ming invaders by Emperor Le Loi? Who slaughtered the several hundred thousand Qing invaders in less than 1 week by Emperor Nguyen Hue?

After the eviction in 938 AD, when was the chinese in control of Vietnam? I sure like to know because I am a somewhat amateur history researcher.

 

[VVV]

Taught a lesson? Where did you get that information? Global Times? Xinhua?



http://time.com/100417/china-vietnam-sino-vietnamese-war-south-china-sea/

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/prc-vietnam.htm



Really? Then who kicked out the chinese for good in 938 AD? Who slaughtered the fearsome Mongols not one, not two, but three times? Who slaughtered the several hundred thousand Qing invaders in less than 1 week in the 1800s?

After the eviction in 938 AD, when was the chinese in control of Vietnam? I sure like to know because I am a somewhat amateur history researcher.

Don't be mad, I used the Chinese propaganda when they decided to invade. Don't forget that VietNam didn't win any war with China following the fall of Saigon. The first one, they refuse to engage and just want to protect Hanoi and hope for Chinese retreat because they understood that message from China (teach a lesson). The only country getting invaded by a foreign country with that kind of excuse.

The second one, that important height was lost and became China land now. How about Gac Ma ? How about Thanh Do ? Why Vietnamese top brass had to go there to sign a treaty in that same treaty they have to agree to not 'talk' about those border wars. Not even building memorial for those soldiers: it was built by population and ex-soldiers.

By the way, I am Vietnamese too but I stated history as it is and not try to be blind by nationalism. Remember, Vietnamese lost more soldiers than invaders in every wars. That's because the top brass use them as number. Remember what Ho and Giap said about 20 to 1 ?

You surely know stories about new soldiers being rushed to battles instead of properly trained ? Both in the war with Cambodia and even in Vi Xuyen ?

Want to talk about how we chased China away but still today use fishermen to proclaim our maritime territorial and they got shot at ?

Want to talk about how we are fear to call them China and use 'foreign' object or boat ?

Tell me, who put the online video about the massacre of Gac Ma ? Who filmed it and why it was popped online during that period of time ? You can't play trick with China, they are the pro version of con-man.

Tell me, why Le Duc Anh ordered the soldiers not to shoot ? You surely know why right ? I hope ? It's the same reason why we have stories about our hero Quang Trung won decisively against China but still want to stay as a vassal ? What's the fear bro ? China or .....

How about Formosa ? You have any idea how economically dependant VietNam is on China ? How everything is imported from China now even basic things like fruits and meats ?

You seriously don't want to wake up from the song of freedom-independent and happiness huh ? Still want to have blood in your hands for the next generation to come to learn the fake news from our victories at some battles but lost the freaking real war of building a nation through the most common knowledge of humanity: learn history by not repeating mistake.

If you're still convinced that we won our wars against China, it's your choice but we ain't look like it right now. By the way, wars don't necessary mean bullets and bombs. Today, nobody want to invade a country anymore (we have nothing valuable by the way). The other way is to make a slave state to do your dirty stuffs and make money on the population.

I never read China or Vietnamese state news and if I read it, it's just for fun to try to analyse the alternative facts they try to put out there. The rest of my knowledge came from lot of reading from history from different perspectives, some of the best views are from ex-soldiers from all sides.

 

[Svnla]

@ VVV, I think you misunderstand me. I am not here to say A is good and awesome and B is bad and horrible. Not me. I am here to say what I learn from my history research. See my previous links from well know neutral sources and not from VN.

If you want to say the current VN government is weak and lean on china, no argument from me. I am only interested in historic facts and not chest pumping.

 

[VVV]

@ VVV, I think you misunderstand me. I am not here to say A is good and awesome and B is bad and horrible. Not me. I am here to say what I learn from my history research. See my previous links from well know neutral sources and not from VN.

If you want to say the current VN government is weak and lean on china, no argument from me. I am only interested in historic facts and not chest pumping.

Sorry if I raised my voice somewhat because there're generation and generation of Vietnamese living in an illusion of being 'freed' from China control or domination and refuse to go back in time, read and comprehend the situation which, still today, never changed, except during the French colonization.

Being under another country domination doesn't necessary mean total occupation although they colonized us for almost a thousand years. You cannot take away that. Imagine how hard it must be for Vietnamese people living in those time.

One thing to remember, if history of a country is only decorated by some wins at some battles and Heros are always military related then it means that the country never had anything to show for during peace time (no progress). It also means that those victories, real or not, is just the alternative facts and the reality is that the rest of the time: nothing (nothing means losing because it's a race). The most important time of a country should not be about wars. You gain nothing from wars except one lesson: if you want peace, prepare for war. Prepare means everything but simply put: grow up, be strong.

There're two major historic events that still influence the everyday life of Vietnamese today. The first one is when we get the South territory from Chiem Thanh. Can't deny the fact that even names from South cities don't sound very Vietnamese right ? Saigon, Hoc Mon, Sa Det etc...

The second one is our own language. We are a nation almost completely illiterate until some French and Portuguese evangelists gave us our Latin base writing alphabet. Realize how important it is. Language is nothing without the ability to write or teaching it properly. The old Chinese base writing is completely lost today, it also means that it wasn't widely used back in time, isn't it ?

Those two events are the only two one can say definitely still present in everyday life in VietNam. The rest are fairly tales which do more harms than good to the next generations until the day the majority decide to wake up and learn the facts.

Living in a bubble (illusion) is hard to explain. Once out of it, everything becomes scary and clear.