The more things change......

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Democrats must really like Dick Chenney. Just look at all the time and effort they are spending in looking for ways to remove Bush from office and therefore, place Chenney in charge.

I seriously doubt Bush is capable of much original thought, let alone leadership ability.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Democrats must really like Dick Chenney. Just look at all the time and effort they are spending in looking for ways to remove Bush from office and therefore, place Chenney in charge.

I seriously doubt Bush is capable of much original thought, let alone leadership ability.

Bush has a core following of morons. It's a base of about 1/3 of the electorate that's misinformed and ill-informed . . . I'm discounting the additional 10% that think Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11.

Bushistas are hopelessly delusional. They are the 'good guys' and any act of the 'good guys' is OK b/c they are the 'good guys.'

Kidnapping . . . check.
Waterboarding . . . check.
Detention without due process . . . check.
Detention and transfer to 3rd parties for torture . . . check.
Kidnapping family members in order to lure wanted individuals . . . check.
Murder . . . check.
Wanton disregard for innocent human lives . . . check.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

like clockwork

"I think history will show him to be the worst president since Ulysses S. Grant," said Barbara Knight, a self-described Republican since birth and the mother of three. "He's been an embarrassment."

A moment of clarity for some . . .

Still, some Southern women remain stalwart supporters of the president and the Republican Party. At a watermelon festival in Chickamauga, in the mountains of northwest Georgia, substitute teacher Clydeen Tomanio said she remains committed to the party she's called home for 43 years.

"There are some people, and I'm one of them, that believe George Bush was placed where he is by the Lord," Tomanio said. "I don't care how he governs, I will support him. I'm a Republican through and through."

. . . stupidity to the end for others.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Let's be honest . . .

1) These guys were overseas for the purpose of getting information from them by any means necessary.

2) #1 invariably led to violations of the Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.

3) How do we know #2 occurred? We won't get the details until Bush (or Gonzalez or Ashcroft or Tenet or Goss) prosecutions start . . . but why else would you ghost people? It's not like Al Qaeda didn't KNOW these guys were captured.

4) According to Bush interrogations were aggressive but not torture. Curiously, there is no prohibition against aggressive interrogations in the Geneva Conventions. I wonder how retarded you have to be to think water boarding is aggressive but not torture . . . or that pain consistent with organ failure is a reasonable threshold?

Part of the problem lies in the fact that these prisoners do not fall under any category traditionally associated with the Geneva Convention or Just War Theory.

These insurgents are combatants, but not serving under the flag of a sovereign nation...there are no governing bodies who serve the interests of protecting these individuals...similarly, as insurgents and terrorists, they somewhere fall between the categories of POWs and international criminals.

Similarly, the intelligence and information these prisoners can provide could arguably help bring a swifter end to this conflict...and apparently torture is the only thing some of these prisoners seem to understand.

I fully support the notion that America, even in times of war, must behave in a manner that is consistant with our core values...however, I also recognize that warfare will always deteriorate down to the lowest common denominator...these insurgents have demonstrated a complete lack of respect for the Geneva Convention and Just War...why must America comply with standards of conduct that our enemies willingly and blatantly ignore?

I don't have an answer to these questions, as this entire scenario is unprecedented. I have no sympathy for these Al Quaida and insurgent knuckleheads who specifically target and/or use civilians as human shields...however, I do recognize that mistakes can be made, and I am not comfortable with the notion of our torturing wrongly accused innocent civilians.

That being said, Americans are somewhat ignorant of how our nation has conducted itself in times of war throughout history...take WW2 for instance, arguably the most just of wars that America has ever fought...even in that conflict, our nation accepted a certain degree of collatoral damage to bring about a swifter end to the war.

Now, I recognize that our unsubstantiated justifications for invading Iraq has muddled the situation quite a bit...but the war in Iraq has drawn our enemies out, and I don't think it is a leap of faith to believe that Islamic militance poses a far greater threat to America then the Nazis and Japanese ever did. If America wanted to, it could have remained isolated from WW2, as it did for much of WW1...there is no way to isolate ourselves from an enemy that does not owe allegiance to any one nation, and whose demands and stated goals are totally incompatible with the modernized, civilized world.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Just War Theory is made up.

The Geneva Convention is a binding legal document to which every country on the planet has signed.

Accordingly, the former is an interesting academic exercise. The latter is a matter of law . . . including US law b/c ALL US citizens and officials must comply with international treaties to which the US has ratified. It doesn't matter where you catch these people, who they fight with, who they fight against, how they fight, or what you call them.

It is pure fantasy that intelligence from prisoners in the war on terror (hmm POW??) will lead to an end to conflict. Even Bushistas admit Al Qaeda is a movement which has become more diffuse. You cannot kill enough people to stop an idea . . . unless of course you are willing to kill everyone that has them.

Your history lesson doesn't make sense. In that context, it would be defensible to accuse the US of perpetual immorality b/c slavery was legal, natives were killed/displaced, US intentionally attacked civilians during WWII and Vietnam. The evil of the past is not an excuse to do evil today.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Your history lesson doesn't make sense. In that context, it would be defensible to accuse the US of perpetual immorality b/c slavery was legal, natives were killed/displaced, US intentionally attacked civilians during WWII and Vietnam. The evil of the past is not an excuse to do evil today.

No the evils of the past do not excuse the evils of today, but I think many Americans have a romantic notion that America has always done what is just and right...I cannot think of one American war where our soldiers did not engage in behaviors that violate our core principles as a nation.

The Geneva Convention is a binding legal document to which every country on the planet has signed.

Yet it is not worth the paper it is written on if nations do not abide by that document...there is no governing world body that can effectively enforce the Geneva Convention...similarly, the Geneva Convention only works so long as both sides in the conflict recognize and abide by its code of conduct.

Just War Theory is made up.

Perhaps, but all Army officers in the American military receive training and education on Just War Theory, with the expectation that they will carry those values with them onto the battlefield.

I would argue that internalization of Just War theory reaps more benefits for ethical conduct on the battlefield then the Geneva Convention...one thing to compel someone to behave in a certain matter, another thing entirely to have them internalize a code of ethics.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Bushistas are hopelessly delusional.

You expect to be taken seriously with lame ass terms like "Bushistas" ?

Try constructing a logical, cohesive argument. You might get further.

 

[Bird222]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

"There are some people, and I'm one of them, that believe George Bush was placed where he is by the Lord," Tomanio said. "I don't care how he governs, I will support him. I'm a Republican through and through."

How the hell can you say "I don't care how he governs" or any politician governs? Unbelievable!!!