The Minimum Wage. Its time to raise it Federally.

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3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Actually, the 'poor guy' generally is in debt, which means inflation is good for them. And a fractional reserve system ceases to cause inflation once a stable reserve level is made. Most banks require notice for withdrawals over a certain size. I don't know the exact terms of the FDIC, but the CDIC guarantees only the first $60k in cash deposits.

You don't think lenders know about inflation?

Banks have a lower default rate than even blue chip debt; the safest way to hold cash is in a safety deposit box, though this is no more beneficial in terms of interest payments than stuffing it in your mattress - under a 100% reserve system, banks would make their money from fees and fees only; the less you have, the smaller your expected average transaction size, and the more you would pay (as a percentage of deposits held) in fees. This is not particularly beneficial to the poor, as far as I can tell.

You are catching on. But banks would not just charge fees. They could also continue to do legitimate lending such as certificates of deposit.

The poor guy pays far more in inflation and all the economic distortions that go with it than he would in bank fees. Like I said before, billions for bankers and debt and inflation for the rest of us. One of the greatest periods of economic growth in the U.S. was in the 19th century when the U.S. was on the gold standard and prices actually fell as a result of increases in output. More on that here

Prices falling is very, very bad, especially at the time you are talking about, when general deflation increased the real value of all sorts of debt (most notably mortgages) and threatened to completely destabiize the American economy.

You guys had a whole election about the gold stadard, which became a moot point when a nice Gold Rush came along and provided much-needed inflation.

Lenders may know about inflation and compensate, but borrowing in an economy with a strong possibility of deflation is a horrible thing to have to do.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
I can appreciate your situation..but not all young people have parents supporting them..and I find it a little frustrating that an employer thinks they have the right to dictate what a person should be spending their money on (or adjust their wages accordingly)...I think that a person should be paid based on how much their labor is actually worth instead of just being treated like a useless piece of crap..if the profit per unit that they create isnt that great then they cant be paid as much..if the profit is high based on each unit they create then they should be paid more..thats what irks me and makes me demand higher pay is when my employer is just rolling in dough and doesnt give a crap that i am still being paid the same i was 4 years ago when i started, even if i was the number 1 producer in the department..employers seem to have no respect for their employees no matter how hard they try to do the job well

I'm not trying to dictate anything. I would just be trying to make sure there babies are fed. Your right that one's labor is as good as another. But I know what's it is like to be essentially homeless, and I'm going to make sure as few of the people that come into contact with me know that also. Besides it's not like I'm Wally World, and my one employee is just some urchin. My employee is a friend's little brother, I used to babysit the brat, I have a right to criticize him as I see fit. :p
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I think it is funny people really care about an issue that applies to .05% of the nation.
How many people do you know work for minimum wage? When the low end unskilled jobs are pulling in 50% more than the minimum wage, then the free market system is working. Govt mandated pricing doesnt really do much of anything except interfere with free markets and make fringe elements of a society happy.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: zendari
The free market will set the wages. No need for any of this nonsense.
Zendari thinks that things were great back in the early 1900's when we let the free market reign supreme. He probably has never read of the robber baron era and that it was Roosevelts new deal that created the great middle class of which I assume he is a member. Its a shame that those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.

Bunch of crap,seriously.

FDRs plans did what exactly? Brought unemployment down to 20% from a high of 25%?
He almost lost the 1940 election because his plans were doing jack shat.

The socialists love to think govt intervention and forced wealth distribution and planned economies create a middle class when socialist examples like the Soviet Union, China, and Cuba prove otherwise. Their proof is amazingly the United States, a much more free system.

Kind of reminds me of some of the communists on this board using quotes from Nazi's to backup their theories. In other words, it is hilarious.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Actually, the 'poor guy' generally is in debt, which means inflation is good for them. And a fractional reserve system ceases to cause inflation once a stable reserve level is made. Most banks require notice for withdrawals over a certain size. I don't know the exact terms of the FDIC, but the CDIC guarantees only the first $60k in cash deposits.

You don't think lenders know about inflation?

Banks have a lower default rate than even blue chip debt; the safest way to hold cash is in a safety deposit box, though this is no more beneficial in terms of interest payments than stuffing it in your mattress - under a 100% reserve system, banks would make their money from fees and fees only; the less you have, the smaller your expected average transaction size, and the more you would pay (as a percentage of deposits held) in fees. This is not particularly beneficial to the poor, as far as I can tell.

You are catching on. But banks would not just charge fees. They could also continue to do legitimate lending such as certificates of deposit.

The poor guy pays far more in inflation and all the economic distortions that go with it than he would in bank fees. Like I said before, billions for bankers and debt and inflation for the rest of us. One of the greatest periods of economic growth in the U.S. was in the 19th century when the U.S. was on the gold standard and prices actually fell as a result of increases in output. More on that here

Prices falling is very, very bad, especially at the time you are talking about, when general deflation increased the real value of all sorts of debt (most notably mortgages) and threatened to completely destabiize the American economy.

You guys had a whole election about the gold stadard, which became a moot point when a nice Gold Rush came along and provided much-needed inflation.

Lenders may know about inflation and compensate, but borrowing in an economy with a strong possibility of deflation is a horrible thing to have to do.

Wrong again. You have conflated falling prices with contraction of the money supply. Two different animals altogether. Falling prices actually makes it easier to repay debt. Think about it. If prices have fallen you are more able to pay for necessities making your debt something that is easier to pay off.

The essential things that need to be understood are that falling prices caused by increased production do not serve to reduce the general or average rate of profit in the economic system and do not make debt repayment more difficult. Indeed, to the extent that such falling prices take place in the face of an increasing quantity of money and rising volume of spending, and result merely from the fact that the increase in production and supply outstrips the increase in money and spending, they are accompanied by a positive elevation of the rate of profit and a greater ease of repaying debts.

Precisely this would be the case under a gold standard, inasmuch as the supply of gold modestly grows from year to year as the result of continued and expanded gold mining operations, and the volume of spending in terms of gold grows commensurately. In such circumstances, the average seller in the economic system would be in the position of selling at lower prices and at the same time have a supply of goods to sell at those lower prices that was larger in greater degree than prices were lower.

For example, if falling prices result from the fact that while the quantity of money and volume of spending in the economic system are rising at a two percent annual rate, production and supply are rising at a three percent annual rate, the average seller in the economic system is in the position of having three percent more goods to sell at prices that are only one percent lower. His sales revenues will be two percent higher, and that is what counts for his nominal profits and his ability to repay debts. His profits will be higher and his ability to repay debt will be greater. There are lower prices here, but absolutely no deflation.

What wipes out profits and makes debt repayment more difficult is not falling prices but monetary contraction, i.e., the reduction in the quantity of money and or volume of spending in the economic system. This is what serves to reduce sales revenues, and, in the face of costs determined on the basis of prior outlays of money, causes a corresponding reduction in profits. It is also what makes debt payment more difficult, in that there is simply less money available to be earned and thus available to be used for the repayment of debts. It is monetary contraction, and monetary contraction alone, which should be called deflation.

Moreover, in the face of any given monetary contraction, the reduction in profits and increase in the burden of debt would in no way be diminished if prices did not fall. Indeed, these phenomena would not be alleviated even if prices rose. Prices would not fall if production and supply fell to the same extent that money and spending fell. They would actually rise if production and supply fell to a greater extent than the quantity of money and volume of spending. But irrespective of what might happen to production, supply, and prices, the same monetary contraction would cause the same reduction in sales revenues and, in the face of the same prior outlays of money showing up as costs, the same reduction in profits. And it would cause the same increase in the burden of repaying debt.

The point is that falling prices are simply not the cause of a plunge in profits and increase in the burden of debt. At most they can be the accompaniment of these things, when all three result from monetary contraction. But they need not even be an accompaniment. For the phenomena of plunging profits and a rising burden of debt, as I've just shown, can also be accompanied by rising prices?to the extent that a reduction in production and supply were to outstrip the reduction in money and spending.

Text

Reisman goes into more detail on deflation in his book Capitalism which is linked to in the article.

Lots of good lectures on the gold standard here.
 

jlbenedict

Banned
Jul 10, 2005
3,724
0
0
:thumbsup:
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: zendari
I am not antiworker. I am pro freemarket.

No you aren't - you think Walmart is a shining example of the 'free' market!
In some ways it is. It's also a great business for Americans bringing us cheaper consumer goods.

It brings you cheaper goods by abusing it's employees, forcing suppliers into a money-losing contracts (by finding that special place where the supplier would lose even more money by not continuing to supply), and myriad other abuses.

Walmart's inventory and distribution systems are brilliant, and certainly contribute to their overall efficiency; they also help secure the market power that lets Walmart get away with murder in other aspects of its business.
The goal of WalMart and every other company is to get itself a monoply position where it can make the most money. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand how business works. If anyone out there thinks WalMart keeps a price on an item low to benefit the consumer they are also so naive as to be childish. Walmart prices items to make the most profit for Walmart. If any CEO did otherwise they would be fired in a second.

We have a winner :thumbsup:

 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Actually, the 'poor guy' generally is in debt, which means inflation is good for them. And a fractional reserve system ceases to cause inflation once a stable reserve level is made. Most banks require notice for withdrawals over a certain size. I don't know the exact terms of the FDIC, but the CDIC guarantees only the first $60k in cash deposits.

You don't think lenders know about inflation?

Banks have a lower default rate than even blue chip debt; the safest way to hold cash is in a safety deposit box, though this is no more beneficial in terms of interest payments than stuffing it in your mattress - under a 100% reserve system, banks would make their money from fees and fees only; the less you have, the smaller your expected average transaction size, and the more you would pay (as a percentage of deposits held) in fees. This is not particularly beneficial to the poor, as far as I can tell.

You are catching on. But banks would not just charge fees. They could also continue to do legitimate lending such as certificates of deposit.

The poor guy pays far more in inflation and all the economic distortions that go with it than he would in bank fees. Like I said before, billions for bankers and debt and inflation for the rest of us. One of the greatest periods of economic growth in the U.S. was in the 19th century when the U.S. was on the gold standard and prices actually fell as a result of increases in output. More on that here

Prices falling is very, very bad, especially at the time you are talking about, when general deflation increased the real value of all sorts of debt (most notably mortgages) and threatened to completely destabiize the American economy.

You guys had a whole election about the gold stadard, which became a moot point when a nice Gold Rush came along and provided much-needed inflation.

Lenders may know about inflation and compensate, but borrowing in an economy with a strong possibility of deflation is a horrible thing to have to do.

Wrong again. You have conflated falling prices with contraction of the money supply. Two different animals altogether. Falling prices actually makes it easier to repay debt. Think about it. If prices have fallen you are more able to pay for necessities making your debt something that is easier to pay off.

The essential things that need to be understood are that falling prices caused by increased production do not serve to reduce the general or average rate of profit in the economic system and do not make debt repayment more difficult. Indeed, to the extent that such falling prices take place in the face of an increasing quantity of money and rising volume of spending, and result merely from the fact that the increase in production and supply outstrips the increase in money and spending, they are accompanied by a positive elevation of the rate of profit and a greater ease of repaying debts.

Precisely this would be the case under a gold standard, inasmuch as the supply of gold modestly grows from year to year as the result of continued and expanded gold mining operations, and the volume of spending in terms of gold grows commensurately. In such circumstances, the average seller in the economic system would be in the position of selling at lower prices and at the same time have a supply of goods to sell at those lower prices that was larger in greater degree than prices were lower.

For example, if falling prices result from the fact that while the quantity of money and volume of spending in the economic system are rising at a two percent annual rate, production and supply are rising at a three percent annual rate, the average seller in the economic system is in the position of having three percent more goods to sell at prices that are only one percent lower. His sales revenues will be two percent higher, and that is what counts for his nominal profits and his ability to repay debts. His profits will be higher and his ability to repay debt will be greater. There are lower prices here, but absolutely no deflation.

What wipes out profits and makes debt repayment more difficult is not falling prices but monetary contraction, i.e., the reduction in the quantity of money and or volume of spending in the economic system. This is what serves to reduce sales revenues, and, in the face of costs determined on the basis of prior outlays of money, causes a corresponding reduction in profits. It is also what makes debt payment more difficult, in that there is simply less money available to be earned and thus available to be used for the repayment of debts. It is monetary contraction, and monetary contraction alone, which should be called deflation.

Moreover, in the face of any given monetary contraction, the reduction in profits and increase in the burden of debt would in no way be diminished if prices did not fall. Indeed, these phenomena would not be alleviated even if prices rose. Prices would not fall if production and supply fell to the same extent that money and spending fell. They would actually rise if production and supply fell to a greater extent than the quantity of money and volume of spending. But irrespective of what might happen to production, supply, and prices, the same monetary contraction would cause the same reduction in sales revenues and, in the face of the same prior outlays of money showing up as costs, the same reduction in profits. And it would cause the same increase in the burden of repaying debt.

The point is that falling prices are simply not the cause of a plunge in profits and increase in the burden of debt. At most they can be the accompaniment of these things, when all three result from monetary contraction. But they need not even be an accompaniment. For the phenomena of plunging profits and a rising burden of debt, as I've just shown, can also be accompanied by rising prices?to the extent that a reduction in production and supply were to outstrip the reduction in money and spending.

Text

Reisman goes into more detail on deflation in his book Capitalism which is linked to in the article.

Lots of good lectures on the gold standard here.
The period of time you are talking about was characterized by a decreasing money supply - i.e. population growing faster than the amount of gold in circulation. This meant that nominal wages would have to fall; it doesn't matter what happens to prices if deflation makes your nominal wage too low to service existing debts.

It's actually not such a hot situation for creditors, either, as the number of defaulted loans is certain to increase. The fact is, there is no reason to allow a contraction in money supply; the destabilizing effects of such an occurence are far more devastating than the devaluation of monetary assets - effects which can be effectively sidestepped by simply not holding your wealth in cash.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: techs
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/02/natio...c6e7&hp&ex=1136264400&partner=homepage
States Take Lead in Push to Raise Minimum Wages
Despite Congressional refusal for almost a decade to raise the federal minimum wage, nearly half of the civilian labor force lives in states where the pay is higher than the rate set by the federal government.
Seventeen states and the District of Columbia have acted on their own to set minimum wages that exceed the $5.15 an hour rate set by the federal government, and this year lawmakers in dozens of the remaining states will debate raising the minimum wage. Some states that already have a higher minimum wage than the federal rate will be debating further increases and adjustments for inflation.
The last time the federal minimum wage was raised was in 1997 - when it was increased from $4.75 an hour. Since then, efforts in Congress to increase the amount have been stymied largely by Republican lawmakers and business groups who argued that a higher minimum wage would drive away jobs.
AND
Even the chairman of Wal-Mart has endorsed an increase, saying that a worker earning the minimum wage cannot afford to shop at his stores.

When the minimum wage goes up it lifts virtually all lower paying job wages. And that means Americans can live better lives. Lets all get on board.

Ignorance is bliss. Go ask any economist and they'll tell you raising the minimum wage does absolutely nothing except increase inflation...

So inflation is good for those on the bottom.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Good point on the cost of living being variable, so the minimum wage should be variable.

Some companies have noticed that the minimum wage just gets you the losers and deadbeats. By paying just a little higher than minimum wage say 7$ or 8$ you can get a better worker who wants to show up to work. There has to be enough of a pay benefit to attract people who want to keep working for you.

I consider 12$ an hour to be kind of low-end wage, but some people manage to get by on less.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
Originally posted by: piasabird
Good point on the cost of living being variable, so the minimum wage should be variable.

Some companies have noticed that the minimum wage just gets you the losers and deadbeats. By paying just a little higher than minimum wage say 7$ or 8$ you can get a better worker who wants to show up to work. There has to be enough of a pay benefit to attract people who want to keep working for you.

I consider 12$ an hour to be kind of low-end wage, but some people manage to get by on less.

Yeah I like the variable wage also. And just to illustrate it, $12/hour would be damn good money here in Amarillo.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: techs
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/02/natio...c6e7&hp&ex=1136264400&partner=homepage
States Take Lead in Push to Raise Minimum Wages
Despite Congressional refusal for almost a decade to raise the federal minimum wage, nearly half of the civilian labor force lives in states where the pay is higher than the rate set by the federal government.
Seventeen states and the District of Columbia have acted on their own to set minimum wages that exceed the $5.15 an hour rate set by the federal government, and this year lawmakers in dozens of the remaining states will debate raising the minimum wage. Some states that already have a higher minimum wage than the federal rate will be debating further increases and adjustments for inflation.
The last time the federal minimum wage was raised was in 1997 - when it was increased from $4.75 an hour. Since then, efforts in Congress to increase the amount have been stymied largely by Republican lawmakers and business groups who argued that a higher minimum wage would drive away jobs.
AND
Even the chairman of Wal-Mart has endorsed an increase, saying that a worker earning the minimum wage cannot afford to shop at his stores.

When the minimum wage goes up it lifts virtually all lower paying job wages. And that means Americans can live better lives. Lets all get on board.

Ignorance is bliss. Go ask any economist and they'll tell you raising the minimum wage does absolutely nothing except increase inflation...

So inflation is good for those on the bottom.

I really hope you're joking. Inflation hurts those on the bottom much more than those on the top...