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The middle class creates jobs, not the rich.

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I AM the 1%, apparently I'm rich. And a nice chunk of my income is from dividends that I wisely re-invest (that I happily only pay 15% on thanks to President Bush even though they are unrealized gains).

In under 10 years I will be retired at 50 and living off that as my main source of income. Fuck be upon obama.

Glad to hear you are doing ok. (That's not sarcastic).

In the meantime, you serve as an example how some people who have more don't give one small crap about anyone else - and why the people need to vote against them.

No clue how you benefit from society, no concern about giving back. A pathetic person.
 
Yes but say it reduces the amount of jobs from 100 to 10.

10 is a lot more than 0.

This is how you get economic growth. One person goes from making 10 t-shirts per day to making 100. Then either people can own 10 times as many t-shirts, or some of the people can make other things. (obviously over-simplified)
What? No, nobody's getting a raise. You have 10% of the people left, that can buy the same things they used to be able to buy. 90% are now unemployed and can't buy shit.
 
What? No, nobody's getting a raise. You have 10% of the people left, that can buy the same things they used to be able to buy. 90% are now unemployed and can't buy shit.

Please. Even with all of the jobs outsourced unemployment still stay relatively low until recently. Saving a few of them and creating a few new ones as outlined would probably be sufficient.
 
Please. Even with all of the jobs outsourced unemployment still stay relatively low until recently. Saving a few of them and creating a few new ones as outlined would probably be sufficient.
I make no claims about outsourcing. I merely inform you that the desired end result of automation is paying less money to less people.
 
Glad to hear you are doing ok. (That's not sarcastic).

In the meantime, you serve as an example how some people who have more don't give one small crap about anyone else - and why the people need to vote against them.

No clue how you benefit from society, no concern about giving back. A pathetic person.

Well I was thinking about it the other day...how many jobs do i create?
Let's see, I just spent 2000 on landscaping, that was a crew of 4 people for two days just to do a clean up and trim
Then there is the guys coming out to take care of my pool, big problems there, 1000 dollar job
Then there's my lawn mower, it's his second job so I'm suplementing his day job
And my grass treatment folks
And my maid

I'd say in a given year on my personal expentitures alone I create at least one FTE, even more if you count everything else I consume.

And then let's get started on business. I know there are directly 11 people that have jobs specifically to take care of my account. Sales, engineering, product managers, etc. I give them well over 25 million a year in business. You do the math on how many jobs that creates.
 
I very seriously doubt that your AGI is over $343K. or that you'll retire at 50 w/o a serious downgrade to your lifestyle. Even at a 7% return, you'd need $5M in working investments to make $343K/yr...

Your wife's public payroll pension is another story...

Heh, she's the gravy and we're almost there. The goal is 50.
 
Glad to hear you are doing ok. (That's not sarcastic).

In the meantime, you serve as an example how some people who have more don't give one small crap about anyone else - and why the people need to vote against them.

No clue how you benefit from society, no concern about giving back. A pathetic person.

Exactly. Oh I made 20 jobs so I am awesome and giving back but I will withdraw your pension when I get out of the game and probably not offer health insurance because I don't want to pay anything extra. We understand that you are just playing the game as it was laid out for you, but that still doesn't make it right. Success does not equal superiority.
 
I agree with most of these points and I have always believed this is the short shortsightedness of corporations and the rich. For a while it is nice... you have everything. Eventually it all fizzles away. The economy can't support only the top buying most products if the middle class and poor can no longer afford products.

Do the rich buy more cars? More TVs? Maybe a little bit... 100x more? 1000x more? a million x more?

It is a snowball effect IMO. The larger the income gap, the lesser amount of product the rich can sell us. As such, they need to find other ways to maintain their profits. In order to do so, they now need to layoff more people, cut labor costs further, and find other ways to siphon more amounts off the middle class. Eventually the middle class income will go down so far that they can no longer support the needs of the corporations and the rich.

Short Version: The middle class are the job creators, not the rich.

http://roundtable.nationaljournal.com/2012/05/the-inequality-speech-that-ted-wont-show-you.php

I admit middle class consumers is a hugely important factor for a robust economy. What I have problem with is this quote:

"taxing the rich to make investments that grow the middle class, is the single smartest thing we can do for the middle class, the poor and the rich."

People assume that "taxing the rich" the money automatically goes to "investments" that "grow the middle class". Don't forget that all taxes go through this huge bureaucratic monster call the government that has SH!T track records in efficiency and seems to be more interested in doing the politically correct thing than the right thing.

That is the single biggest issue with all the socialists promoting more tax, more government enforced income redistribution. There is no guarantee that added money will be invested properly to grow the middle class. Do I have to cite Obama's investment in Solyndra and others and how many "middle class" job has that created?
 
The masses create aggregate demand. We are In a crisis of aggregate demand. The only think that will change that is the little guy getting some money In There pocket and the ability to spend it.

Guess what? I have created six real jobs this year at my small businesses and they all are as a result of demand.
 
The people that create jobs are consumers, no matter what social class you are talking about or whatever product you are talking about. There must be consumers for there to be jobs and by gutting the middle class in this country we have turned it into just another nearly-3rd world market.
 
I have started or helped start, dozens of businesses and initially hired lots of people. But if no one could have afforded to buy what we had to sell, my businesses would all have failed and all those jobs would have evaporated.

Its is a fairly well documented fact that 2/3 new jobs are created by small business. Not big business and certainly not the govt or politicians. I don't know if you consider a small business owner "rich" but if they become wealthy, they certainly do gain some level of financial sucess. Our politicians throw around the term "rich" yet no one defines what "rich" means. Even more interestingly is that our press does not demand that our politicians disclose who they think the "rich" are.
 
The masses create aggregate demand. We are In a crisis of aggregate demand. The only think that will change that is the little guy getting some money In There pocket and the ability to spend it.

Guess what? I have created six real jobs this year at my small businesses and they all are as a result of demand.

What few seem to understand is that govt is part of aggregate demand- it creates demand when buying goods & services, and creates demand when paying people who'll actually spend the money rather than hoard the money.

In that respect, govt is only doing part of its job-

a-spending-chart-475x374.jpg


Repub desires to cut even more are just a form of beggar thy neighbor... drowning demand in the bathtub, as per Grover Norquist...
 
Well I was thinking about it the other day...how many jobs do i create?
Let's see, I just spent 2000 on landscaping, that was a crew of 4 people for two days just to do a clean up and trim
Then there is the guys coming out to take care of my pool, big problems there, 1000 dollar job
Then there's my lawn mower, it's his second job so I'm suplementing his day job
And my grass treatment folks
And my maid

I'd say in a given year on my personal expentitures alone I create at least one FTE, even more if you count everything else I consume.

And then let's get started on business. I know there are directly 11 people that have jobs specifically to take care of my account. Sales, engineering, product managers, etc. I give them well over 25 million a year in business. You do the math on how many jobs that creates.

I wish you were trying to make a joke
 
We need to get rid of many of the laws that make it hard for average people to start businesses. These are the people we want creating jobs, making good money for themselves and others.
 
We need to get rid of many of the laws that make it hard for average people to start businesses. These are the people we want creating jobs, making good money for themselves and others.

The reason that the vast majority of small businesses fail is because they're under capitalized, and that won't change so long as those at the top continue to receive an inordinate & undeserved % of national income. Only when middle class incomes rise to allow formation of their own capital will the chances of small business success change.
 
Sorry dude, that's BS.

The simple fact that deductions are taken off the top of your income (and thus enjoy the maximum tax rate credit) is proof.

When I made a lot less money, the tax credit I got back for my bus pass was next to nothing - I paid full price for the thing.

Now that I make a lot more, I get a way better deal on my transit pass because more of it is subsidized through a tax break.

...and tuition, and charitable donations, and political donations, and...
This. Off the top of my head, let's say my top income tax bracket is 35%. My bus pass is a full write off, so I get a 35% discount on it. Sweet! My ghetto friend who makes about 20k per year would get almost no discount because her top tax bracket is very low.

I think the alternative is called a tax credit instead of a tax deduction, but don't quote me on that. It would be a flat thing like pay $20 less in taxes regardless of what your tax rate is.
 
Do people remember Richard Nixon? Were you in your middle or late teens during Richard Nixon? If not, then you don't remember the details of the Richard Nixon era. I don't know why this started during the Richard Nixon era, but it did...
During the Richard Nixon era, something changed. Changed in how the job market interacted with the worker. Or maybe I should put it, how business as usual stopped being business as usual.

What I remember for one, was how Master Card and Visa (mass plastic credit) came into being. And how the climate of "the business merger" born from infancy suddenly grew into adulthood. Adulthood on steroids.
Every business wanted to cover their bottom line by buying and owning something unrelated to their line of business. McDonalds didn't just want to make hamburgers, they also wanted to own telecommunication companies. K-Mart didn't just want to sell shoes and shirts, k-Mart also wanted to own television stations and public utilities.
And so on, etc etc, and so on.

If K-Mart's sales declined, they had their "other" properties to rely on.
And if sales did not decline, then they had the capital to expand like no one imagined.
And the same story with McDonalds. And the same story for hundreds, thousands of other companies originally in business only to sell that one item they were famous for.

Once the merging began, it never stopped. It didn't just grow, it exploded.
And for the first time in our American history, more people were out of a job not because of poor job performance, but out of a job because that job ended, and consumed by "the merger".

There was a time if someone you knew lost their job, you immediately asked "what did you do?", because people never lost a job unless they screwed up.

During the 1970's and more so the 1980's, good hard working people lost their job not because of personal job performance, but because that job itself went away. The company closed. The company merged. Blue collar jobs, union jobs, were suddenly shipped offshore.

Bye bye to the 1950's when dad was the only bread earner in the household needed to make ends meet. Needed to buy the house. Needed to purchase that family car. Needed to save for the kids college.
Once upon a time families took vacations every Summer. Mom could stay at home all day. Mom was there when the kids came home from school. Everyone had dinner at the same time, together, around the old dinning room table.
And every house built in the 1950's had.... (get this).... A ONE CAR GARAGE. They only needed one car.

I believe THAT era is what the old folks refer to as THE GOOD OLD DAYS. That time they long to go back to. And some people still actually believe those GOOD OLD DAYS can be once again if we just elect the right president. Or put the right political party in charge.
Happy days are here again. The president (insert name) will save us all.
Dream-on.....
Those days will never be again, not in this country.

During the Richard Nixon era, suddenly old dads income just didn't cut it any longer.
Dad had to work a second job to even come close to making ends meet.
But that too wasn't enough. Soon it was necessary for old mom to untie that apron, lock the front door, and head off to work herself.

Something happened during that period back in the Richard Nixon era that changed the American landscape FOREVER.
And it has become harder and harder, more challenging, year after year for that once typical middle class one car one wage earner American household.

Very soon, regardless of which party is in power, or that man or woman sitting in the oval office, very soon that middle class family will take yet another hit. Possibly the final fatal hit. It has already started happening, and for some time now.
Families losing their homes, kids no longer planning for college, more and more debt for everyone in that 99% bracket.

The silly thing is, there are still people doing quite well under the old rules. And those very same people are about to realize the hard cold reality of the future. They too will join the masses of people now asking "what the hell happened?".

I could go on, so and I will....

That once secure union based retirement pension has been replaced by the 401K.
Everyone has a 401K. And notably, only a 401K.
And that 401K is like a sitting duck, with a false sense of security, floating on the pond, ready to be pounce on by a well hidden extremely hungry wild animal.

People actually believe that retirement nest egg is going to survive the appetite of the greedy, hungry, and ever lurking wild animal known as the economy. If people actually believe that, then your chances are no netter than that poor sitting duck.

If people believe social security is going to survive into those golden retirement years, about four more years of either political party will bring a screeching halt to that.

It started with the slow destruction of the middle class, and has been eating its way up the ladder ever since.
Whether it started with union busting, home foreclosures, college dreams lost, bailouts, mom working, two car garages, owned politicians, or that giant sucking sound Ross Perot warned about... Who knows?
But we all know where it will end.... That little carefree ducky is about to be ducky no more.

It doesn't matter if the middle class creates more jobs, or the rich.
All three are on that hungry wild animal's dinner menu.
 
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This. Off the top of my head, let's say my top income tax bracket is 35%. My bus pass is a full write off, so I get a 35% discount on it. Sweet! My ghetto friend who makes about 20k per year would get almost no discount because her top tax bracket is very low.

I think the alternative is called a tax credit instead of a tax deduction, but don't quote me on that. It would be a flat thing like pay $20 less in taxes regardless of what your tax rate is.

If you're in the 35% tax bracket, why are you riding the bus?
 
Do people remember Richard Nixon? Were you in your middle or late teens during Richard Nixon? If not, then you don't remember the details of the Richard Nixon era. I don't know why this started during the Richard Nixon era, but it did...
During the Richard Nixon era, something changed. Changed in how the job market interacted with the worker. Or maybe I should put it, how business as usual stopped being business as usual.

What I remember for one, was how Master Card and Visa (mass plastic credit) came into being. And how the climate of "the business merger" born from infancy suddenly grew into adulthood. Adulthood on steroids.
Every business wanted to cover their bottom line by buying and owning something unrelated to their line of business. McDonalds didn't just want to make hamburgers, they also wanted to own telecommunication companies. K-Mart didn't just want to sell shoes and shirts, k-Mart also wanted to own television stations and public utilities.
And so on, etc etc, and so on.

If K-Mart's sales declined, they had their "other" properties to rely on.
And if sales did not decline, then they had the capital to expand like no one imagined.
And the same story with McDonalds. And the same story for hundreds, thousands of other companies originally in business only to sell that one item they were famous for.

Once the merging began, it never stopped. It didn't just grow, it exploded.
And for the first time in our American history, more people were out of a job not because of poor job performance, but out of a job because that job ended, and consumed by "the merger".

There was a time if someone you knew lost their job, you immediately asked "what did you do?", because people never lost a job unless they screwed up.

During the 1970's and more so the 1980's, good hard working people lost their job not because of personal job performance, but because that job itself went away. The company closed. The company merged. Blue collar jobs, union jobs, were suddenly shipped offshore.

Bye bye to the 1950's when dad was the only bread earner in the household needed to make ends meet. Needed to buy the house. Needed to purchase that family car. Needed to save for the kids college.
Once upon a time families took vacations every Summer. Mom could stay at home all day. Mom was there when the kids came home from school. Everyone had dinner at the same time, together, around the old dinning room table.
And every house built in the 1950's had.... (get this).... A ONE CAR GARAGE. They only needed one car.

I believe THAT era is what the old folks refer to as THE GOOD OLD DAYS. That time they long to go back to. And some people still actually believe those GOOD OLD DAYS can be once again if we just elect the right president. Or put the right political party in charge.
Happy days are here again. The president (insert name) will save us all.
Dream-on.....
Those days will never be again, not in this country.

During the Richard Nixon era, suddenly old dads income just didn't cut it any longer.
Dad had to work a second job to even come close to making ends meet.
But that too wasn't enough. Soon it was necessary for old mom to untie that apron, lock the front door, and head off to work herself.

Something happened during that period back in the Richard Nixon era that changed the American landscape FOREVER.
And it has become harder and harder, more challenging, year after year for that once typical middle class one car one wage earner American household.

Very soon, regardless of which party is in power, or that man or woman sitting in the oval office, very soon that middle class family will take yet another hit. Possibly the final fatal hit. It has already started happening, and for some time now.
Families losing their homes, kids no longer planning for college, more and more debt for everyone in that 99% bracket.

The silly thing is, there are still people doing quite well under the old rules. And those very same people are about to realize the hard cold reality of the future. They too will join the masses of people now asking "what the hell happened?".

I could go on, so and I will....

That once secure union based retirement pension has been replaced by the 401K.
Everyone has a 401K. And notably, only a 401K.
And that 401K is like a sitting duck, with a false sense of security, floating on the pond, ready to be pounce on by a well hidden extremely hungry wild animal.

People actually believe that retirement nest egg is going to survive the appetite of the greedy, hungry, and ever lurking wild animal known as the economy. If people actually believe that, then your chances are no netter than that poor sitting duck.

If people believe social security is going to survive into those golden retirement years, about four more years of either political party will bring a screeching halt to that.

It started with the slow destruction of the middle class, and has been eating its way up the ladder ever since.
Whether it started with union busting, home foreclosures, college dreams lost, bailouts, mom working, two car garages, owned politicians, or that giant sucking sound Ross Perot warned about... Who knows?
But we all know where it will end.... That little carefree ducky is about to be ducky no more.

It doesn't matter if the middle class creates more jobs, or the rich.
All three are on that hungry wild animal's dinner menu.

Phenomenal post, everyone should read this because it is 100% true.
 
People actually believe that retirement nest egg is going to survive the appetite of the greedy, hungry, and ever lurking wild animal known as the economy. If people actually believe that, then your chances are no netter than that poor sitting duck.

In many respects, you seem to understand what's happening but then you fail to correctly identify the perps, the market insiders, the lootocracy. As the middle & working class have been getting poorer, they've been getting richer, a lot richer, and they've gone international, as well.

It's very much in their interests to amplify the swings of the business cycle rather than to smooth them, because of informational asymmetry & market position. They know better than the rest of us when to hold & when to fold, and they're already financially indestructible, anyway. Losses occur only on paper, not in their lifestyles. If Mitt lost half his fortune tomorrow, it'd be to his benefit, because the rest of us would be dead busted as a result of such a calamity. It'd be like 1931, when people were reduced to barter on account of the scarcity of currency & credit. Those at the top exploited that ruthlessly, cutting wages, refusing to lend or invest- why would they do otherwise, when the value of their money grew stuffed into their mattresses? Deflation provides the safest return of all.

The best time to be Rich? When everybody else is broke, when liquidity is scarce. That's when monetary gains made in the up part of the cycle are consolidated into ridiculous bargains on businesses & property. That's when those at the top really get to put the bone to the rest of us, make no mistake about that.

So, let's bring on the spending cuts, the top tier tax cuts, the benefits cuts, the austerity to make it happen, huh?
 
The rich don't create jobs. Successful people create jobs. Then they become rich.

And then reality set in..

I do not know what country you are from but in the USA success and money are provided for kissing ass and not rocking the boat (stifling innovation) actually having a good idea or product will get you nowhere if you do not have capital/connections.

You conservatives really need to rethink this whole crackerjack box economic fundamentalist worldview the corporations pawn off to you like gullible children.
 
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