The Microsoft Surface Review Thread

[OneOfTheseDays]

Ultimately x86 will rule the day and anyone who has any brains will wait until these tablets are released. That is the holy grail of tablet computing as far as I'm concerned. Even more so once Intel releases Haswell and their follow on low power processors.

 

[Red Storm]

Ultimately x86 will rule the day and anyone who has any brains will wait until these tablets are released. That is the holy grail of tablet computing as far as I'm concerned. Even more so once Intel releases Haswell and their follow on low power processors.

The holy grail for Windows devices only I'd say. I personally am very glad that my mobile device isn't an x86 Windows machine.

 

[ChronoReverse]

For Windows only I'd say. I personally am very glad that my mobile device isn't an x86 Windows machine.

I dunno, Medfield has shown that it can be comparable now in all the important aspects. We'll see if the Cloverfield can exceed ARM.

 

[Dominato3r]

Anand's comparison of Surface to a Clovertrail Windows 8 tablet makes Windows RT seem completely pointless. Not only are the Atom tablets faster but they are also available in competitive or even thinner form factors and they don't appear to suffer any price penalty either. Plus the x86 tablets will have far better driver support for peripherals and can use any of the millions of existing windows desktop apps.

Yea. I just finished reading it and damn, Clovertrail is not only giving ARM a run for its money, it seems pretty much the only logical option. If battery life, price, and preformance are better it would make almost no sense. Granted Windows RT isn't has mature as Android on the ARM side, and we'll have to see how Clovertrail preforms there.

But it's looking good for Intel. Good work by them.:thumbsup:

The holy grail for Windows devices only I'd say. I personally am very glad that my mobile device isn't an x86 Windows machine.

For what reason? Early looks at Clovertrail are showing it's extremely competitive with ARM

 

[Red Storm]

For what reason? Early looks at Clovertrail are showing it's extremely competitive with ARM

If I didn't love PC games so much I would have zero use for Windows (outside of work but I didn't have to buy my work computer).

 

[ChronoReverse]

If I didn't love PC games so much I would have zero use for Windows (outside of work but I didn't have to buy my work computer).

Not the same thing as x86 though. x86 running Android (Medfield) is very comparable to the same running on ARM.

 

[Red Storm]

Not the same thing as x86 though. x86 running Android (Medfield) is very comparable to the same running on ARM.

The difference is that Android doesn't need x86, while Windows does. The sooner we move away from x86 and Intel's monopoly, the better.

 

[ChronoReverse]

Windows hasn't absolutely needed x86 for a while. Even Windows 2000 had an Alpha version for instance. Now we have Windows RT for ARM.

But it's simply convenient for Windows and x86 to go together because of the tremendous legacy support.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

If Intel were maybe a year ahead of where they are now in the mobile computing space I don't think we would have ever seen Windows RT.

 

[Dominato3r]

If I didn't love PC games so much I would have zero use for Windows (outside of work but I didn't have to buy my work computer).

I meant it more along the lines of the hardware itself. If Android was more mature regarding x86, that would definitely be something to look at.

 

[tdawg]

I'm curious if users will be able to install RT apps outside of the microsoft store at all in the future like we can with .apk files in android.

 

[dagamer34]

It really depends if people are thinking of this as an tablet+ or a PC-. Your entire perception pretty much hinges on that point. As a tablet, I'm sure it does just fine. As a PC, RT will only better satisfy the people that can claim to use an iPad as their only computer (and I'm sure they exist, but it just seems so rare to me personally).

Like any new platform, the really important question is not whether it is successful now, but if it will be successful in the future. No one was rushing to buy Android phones back in 2008, but it's definitely a top tier mobile OS today only 4 years later. I don't think iOS will be the only successful tablet platform out there, so will Android or Windows RT break into the mainstream first? (I do not consider the Kindle Fire an Android tablet as much as it's an Amazon one).

 

[Puddle Jumper]

The problem is Windows RT is actually worse at being a tablet than Clover Trail system too.

 

[s44]

Why the heck are you comparing an ARM SOC that's been in shipping devices since *last year* to an Intel chip that isn't even in a released device yet and pronouncing Intel the winner forever!?

Clover Trail vs... S4Pro. Clover Trail vs... A6X. Clover Trail vs... Exynos 5.

NOT Tegra3. Heck, we may see Clover Trail vs. Tegra4 before the former officially ships.

 

[ultimatebob]

I wonder if the Atom based Surface tablets will perform better than the Tegra 3 model... One would hope!

 

[ITHURTSWHENIP]

The problem is Windows RT is actually worse at being a tablet than Clover Trail system too.

Well if Tegra 3 was better than Clover Trail then Intel might aswell pack their bags and leave the industry. Because we are comparing a 1,3 GHz chip at 40nm with crappy memory controller to a 1,5-1,8 GHz chip at 32 nm.

Just the difference in frequency alone gives Intel the edge.

I dont see the fascination with Clover Trail though. Sure its faster than Tegra 3 but what kind of X86 productivity could you seriously expect from it? Its the same shitty Atom from the netbook days that Intel repackaged and now being sold as tablets. If anything the limitation ARM has in legacy is actually a benefit because users wont be able to see how worthless the processor is when doing serious work

 

[Kingbee13]

Arm development is glacial, first arm comes up with an architecture, then third parties integrate that into an soc design. Then the soc designers have to go to another party like TSMC to produce their soc design, which they market to oems, who then design and bring devices to market. Now we have custom designs from Apple and Qaulcomm.

On the Intel side we have atom, the cpu core hasn't changed in years, its still a (by desktop standards) a very slow inorder cpu. Its still faster than anything we've seen from arm. I suppose quad core a15 could beat it, we just can't be sure quite yet. On the other hand Intel is moving to tick tock with atom next year, not to mention core architecture socs. IMO it's entirely possible, and perhaps even likely that Intel will dominate mobile like they do desktops.

I feel like Intel finally woke up like when it abandoned netburst and crushed AMD. in short shit is about to get real in mobile. Personally I have no preference, let the best perf/watt design win.

 

[ITHURTSWHENIP]

Arm development is glacial, first arm comes up with an architecture, then third parties integrate that into an soc design. Then the soc designers have to go to another party like TSMC to produce their soc design, which they market to oems, who then design and bring devices to market. Now we have custom designs from Apple and Qaulcomm.

On the Intel side we have atom, the cpu core hasn't changed in years, its still a (by desktop standards) a very slow inorder cpu. Its still faster than anything we've seen from arm. I suppose quad core a15 could beat it, we just can't be sure quite yet. On the other hand Intel is moving to tick tock with atom next year, not to mention core architecture socs. IMO it's entirely possible, and perhaps even likely that Intel will dominate mobile like they do desktops.

I feel like Intel finally woke up like when it abandoned netburst and crushed AMD. in short shit is about to get real in mobile. Personally I have no preference, let the best perf/watt design win.

You forgot to mention Intel asks for 2x the price and offers no volume discounts unlike ARM. The only way Intel will dominate anything is if they can obliterate the competition in performance wich they havent shown so far. Nobody including Microsoft truly wants Intel to be a dominant presence in mobile/tablets

Also Apple and Qualcomm dont really do "custom designs". They own an architectural license so its something completely different. It would be like saying AMD is doing a custom design for X86. Nvidia and Microsoft also own architectural licenses. Everyone is trying to get away from depending on Intel

 

[wsw1982]

Intel said the price of the clover trail is comparable with arm offers. It's pointless to say the Intel product is more expensive than the arm counterpart in the same performance/market range. The margin in clover trail is no doubt much lower then the core line, but I bet it's higher than their competitors (nvidia, qualcomm, samsung), at least intel don't need to pay extra money to foundries or ARM. If those company could make money form their products, there is noway intel cannot. By the way, Intel idled 50% of their foundries, it's just better to use them even for lower margin (in Intel standard, but still higher than others)product lines.

 

[ITHURTSWHENIP]

Intel said the price of the clover trail is comparable with arm offers. It's pointless to say the Intel product is more expensive than the arm counterpart in the same performance/market range. The margin in clover trail is no doubt much lower then the core line, but I bet it's higher than their competitors (nvidia, qualcomm, samsung), at least intel don't need to pay extra money to foundries or ARM. If those company could make money form their products, there is noway intel cannot. By the way, Intel idled 50% of their foundries, it's just better to use them even for lower margin (in Intel standard, but still higher than others)product lines.

Intel says a lot of things. The Windows license for ARM is almost twice the X86 version yet all the ARM tablets are cheaper than Clover Trail tablets. The only exception is Acer who is not competing in ARM and most likely giving up margins to sell their X86 low range tablet

And the issue is not about Intels margins but about the OEMs margins. ARM offers volume discounts and a far faster development cycle. Microsoft wants to compete with Apple? Well sorry you have to wait until late 2013 when Intel is ready for Valley View, meanwhile Apple/Android OEMs upgrade their hardware on a yearly basis. Apple A6 already beats up 2GHz Medfield in anything other than javascript

 

[Topweasel]

Keep in mind that Tegra 3 is a strong contender both in Nvidia's support of it, production, and industry knowledge as it was the first real quadcore option and the first tablet ready SoC. But that said its old, made on an old process, using already replaced architectures. The Tegra 4, Krait, Exynos 5, Imap 5, and the A6, are all either available or soon will be and are all leaps and bounds better then the Tegra 3 (well maybe not Krait but its pretty fast).

The other problem with Clovertrail is that its a horribly slow CPU for running x86 code, I would rather have a Tablet/mobile OS that acts like a mobile OS, then be tempted to run normal software and be pissed about the experience. Windows RT is about media consumption, Windows 8 on Clovertrail is about keeping the Netbook experience alive in Tablets, which generally means that quality wise I really expect those to get the short end of the stick in development.

 

[nerp]

Got one. It's awesome. Thanks to my wife for the great xmas present.

 

[riversend]

I am seriously considering the Surface. I used an iPad2 for about four months at school (issued for a course) and have been using an Android phone for more than 18 months. I own a laptop (wife has it during our move) and a desktop (in storage for the time being). I figure I can take the Surface for a spin to have an across the board experience and if I do.not care for it then I can sell it.

I want to get a tablet that is well made and has some productivity. But if I get the Surface RT it will be as a tablet primarily. I do not need lots of apps. I need e-mail, browsing, some entertainment and some games with pretty good battery life for travel. User profiles would be nice.

Surface RT fills a niche area which is one of the reasons why it is so polarizing. But it does amaze me that some professional reviewers get wrapped around the axle about how crippled it is wrt Win8. Really? Is that a surprise? It is not meant to be full up x86.

Do I think it is perfect? No. Is any tablet perfect? No. But the Surface RT might be just intriguing enough for me to give it a spin.

 

[sequoia464]

Got one. It's awesome. Thanks to my wife for the great xmas present.

I have been playing with one at Staples every time I go in. Pretty nice device - don't need one just yet but they are hard to resist.

 

[HeXen]

Most of the reviews and posts i've seen don't even seem to hold a candle to Nexus 10 and Ipad. I was initially wanting a Surface, but seems to be too many cons