The little things - why Linux still isn't ready for prime-time.

[VirtualLarry]

Well, I just downloaded Linux Mint 14.1 64-bit with Cinnamon.

Overall, pretty slick, and the installer is better than Ubuntu 12.x's. Why, you may ask? Because it allows to you select a flash drive and install to it, without going into manual partition setup. (Like Ubuntu 10.04's installer used to, before they broke it.)

But that's not what my rant is about.

It's just the little things. Like installing VirtualBox-nonfree, running it, creating a VM, starting the VM, installing Windows 7 into the VM via a physical DVD drive in the PC, and having the screensaver fire in Mint's desktop.

Well, VirtualBox includes a feature that captures the keyboard and mouse.

Well, it stays captured, when the screensaver fires. So you cannot just wiggle the mouse to cancel out the screensaver. Bummer.

Thankfully, I am a technical-enough user, to understand what was going on, and that I needed to hit Right-CTRL to uncapture the mouse and keyboard.

But what ordinary user would realize that? They would probably hit RESET to reboot their computer, thinking it had locked up.

It's these little niggling things that cause so much consternation among ordinary users.

Previously, I had messed around with Ubuntu, and the flash player package for whatever distro version I installed, it installed Flash Player, but the controls wouldn't respond. For whatever reason, the flash player was not able to capture or intercept mouse clicks. So non of the flash player controls, for example on YouTube, to pause or stop the video, adjust the video and so forth, would work.

Again, still not ready for prime-time.

 

[bobross419]

Did you submit a bug report?

 

[lxskllr]

I use Debian daily. GNU/Linux has it's problems, largely the doing of other companies, and the philosophy that code should be locked up. Your complaints are all the result of proprietary software. It's a small miracle the stuff works at all, and should be avoided at all costs.

 

[ControlD]

So you are saying there are a lot of "normal users" that are going to download VirtualBox and install a Windows VM into it? I bet if I asked any one of my friends or family members what a virtual machine is I would get exactly zero correct answers. So in that context I would guess almost everyone that is using a VM knows the correct key sequence to break out of a captured mouse/keyboard.

I'm also not sure how VirtualBox problems reflect on how Linux is or is not ready for prime time. VirtualBox runs on much more than just Linux.

 

[hasu]

I installed LinuxMint in 2008 (have been using it since then) and never had any issues with it, but I don't play computer games anymore and I have other Windows machines, if I needed. IIRC, I even upgraded my hardware three time since 2008 (because I wanted to run Virtual Machines). Biggest advantage of Linux (Mint in my case) was the peace of mind. I don't see unexplainable slowdowns or unexplainable intense hard drive activities. And ... I can install and re-install the opeating system all I want (if I want).

Interestingly, I have had VirtualBox on my LinuxMint machine for very long time (since version 3.0 or even prior to that). Whenever I had to reinstall LinuxMint I just copy all the configuration files and there you go the whole setup would be just like I have had before. I have a Ubuntu Server, Linux Mint 32bit with CodeTyphon (Lazarus) etc on these VirtualBoxes which I never had to re-install.

The quirks you find now-a-days on LinuxMint is (much) less than that you would find on Windows. How many of you who have installed Windows 8 had to Google to find out how to shutdown Windows 8? I had to ... and being a Windows' application developer, I am somewhat of a technical user.

Edit: One who sleeps can be awakened, but not the one who pretends

 

[Elixer]

The real issue with linux is that they have very crappy driver support, and lots of things are not 'plug & play'.
Take for example a mouse that has 6 buttons. You have to jump through lots of hoops to try to configure it the way you want.
The video driver mess is still there, and once you have everything running, along comes a kernel update, and you must recompile the binary blobs to get it to work, IF it will work at all with the new kernel.
Yeah, I know there are non-proprietary video drivers you can use, but, every time I have fiddled with those, they have way too many issues, are really slow, and don't offer any of the new bells & whistles that the binary blobs offer.

While Valve is trying to fix some of these things, there are just too many companies that don't offer good docs to their hardware so people can write good drivers for them.

If you are just running a server though, then, all the above is pretty much moot.

 

[Cerb]

Well, it stays captured, when the screensaver fires. So you cannot just wiggle the mouse to cancel out the screensaver. Bummer.

Thankfully, I am a technical-enough user, to understand what was going on, and that I needed to hit Right-CTRL to uncapture the mouse and keyboard.

But what ordinary user would realize that? They would probably hit RESET to reboot their computer, thinking it had locked up.

No, the ordinary user wouldn't run it inside VirtualBox. Right-CTRL is a VirtualBox thing.

Previously, I had messed around with Ubuntu, and the flash player package for whatever distro version I installed, it installed Flash Player, but the controls wouldn't respond. For whatever reason, the flash player was not able to capture or intercept mouse clicks. So non of the flash player controls, for example on YouTube, to pause or stop the video, adjust the video and so forth, would work.

Again, still not ready for prime-time.

Native or in VBox? Linux won't be ready for 'prime time' until it is forced to get its driver act together, no matter what else happens, but flash not working correctly in VBox is normal.

 

[VirtualLarry]

No, the ordinary user wouldn't run it inside VirtualBox. Right-CTRL is a VirtualBox thing.

Native or in VBox? Linux won't be ready for 'prime time' until it is forced to get its driver act together, no matter what else happens, but flash not working correctly in VBox is normal.

No, the flash issue was native Linux. Adobe Flash inside Windows 7 inside VirtualBox is fine.

 

[TSDible]

I will say that I have had just the opposite experience.

I do believe it is ready for prime time. The big problem here is the definition of "prime time".

VirtualBox - Not a prime time feature. How many regular people do you know that use a virtual environment?
Six Button mouse - Also not a prime time feature. My mouse has 4 buttons and a scroll wheel. It all works by default.

So that brings up driver issues. I can install Mint and have it 100% working on my system in minutes. It takes hours to do the same thing for a Windows 7 install. All my hardware is supported by default in Linux. The drivers just work, and are part of the kernel.

The only thing that I have to do each time I install on a version that I want to keep is to install the software for my Smart Card reader and set up dual displays (no need for a driver). Dual displays are the most troublesome thing that I've run in to. The DEs that I like the best seem to have the poorest support for dual monitors using a docking station environment.

Saying that linux isn't ready because of driver support doesn't make sense. In that respect, Windows is not ready either... I have to download a driver for just about every piece of hardware in my system for it to work right. You have to rely on manufactures for Windows drivers... so blame them. I have to spend hours installing them along with a boatload of updates the first time I install...

 

[Mem]

VirtualBox argument is very weak because most users regardless of Windows or Linux users install the OS on its own or in a dual boot scenario,personally I've done this many times ie with Mint 13,Ubuntu and even Zorin 6.3 ,guess what?.... It installed faultlessly and with all drivers installed(even my wireless ones).

I would say even Windows has a hard time doing this and the closest thing would be Win8 but even with that you have to install some third party stuff where Linux comes with the most useful things you need right out of the box.

Bottomline Linux (especially Ubuntu distro's)is more then ready, especially if you compare it to a standard Windows installation.


Linux problem is actually gaming ,most users including myself still use Windows because of the huge Windows gaming software and history etc,thats the weakest part in Linux for me IMHO,maybe in a decade or two that might change.

Sure you can get some games on Steam for Linux but it's still very small compared to Windows.

 

[ControlD]

I have a hard time trying to figure out if Linux is "ready" or not. As previously noted, the actual installation process for most modern and polished distro's is very good. After the install is complete you are generally left with a well running system.

Where I start to have my doubts is when I have to open a terminal and start typing in commands, adding repositories, modifying configuration files, etc. I don't know if I find myself doing this because I am a geek or because it is just part of running Linux. If it is the later then I can't see how Linux will ever replace Windows or OSX.

 

[TSDible]

I have a hard time trying to figure out if Linux is "ready" or not. As previously noted, the actual installation process for most modern and polished distro's is very good. After the install is complete you are generally left with a well running system.

Where I start to have my doubts is when I have to open a terminal and start typing in commands, adding repositories, modifying configuration files, etc. I don't know if I find myself doing this because I am a geek or because it is just part of running Linux. If it is the later then I can't see how Linux will ever replace Windows or OSX.

I do the same thing... but I think it is because we are geeks.

You can use the GUI software installer that comes with most polished distros. There is no "need" to ever fire up a terminal for your average user.

I set up Linux mint on a an older laptop I had and gave it to my Nephew and Mother. They were both able to navigate it, and do everything they wanted to. My mom figured out how to install new children's games for him to play around with.

The fact that she can do it makes be believe it is ready for prime time.

 

[lxskllr]

Where I start to have my doubts is when I have to open a terminal and start typing in commands, adding repositories, modifying configuration files, etc. I don't know if I find myself doing this because I am a geek or because it is just part of running Linux. If it is the later then I can't see how Linux will ever replace Windows or OSX.

But you're allowed to. That's what makes it easier. You don't do any of that on Windows or OSX because it does no good. You take the product as-shipped, or leave it. You add repositories, and then don't have to manually search for, and update 100 different programs. It all happens centrally. You /almost/ like your window theme, but the scrollbars are hard to see? You edit a config file to fix it.

My 80 year old mother uses Ubuntu, and there aren't anymore problems than there were on Windows. To be fair, she didn't have Windows problems either, but I picked GNU/Linux for security, and to make it easier for me to admin. She's indifferent, and I'm happier.

 

[wirednuts]

i think with more cloud based services, and most stuff we do now is on an HTML5 webpage, linux is becoming more viable for average users.

 

[Elixer]

So that brings up driver issues. I can install Mint and have it 100% working on my system in minutes. It takes hours to do the same thing for a Windows 7 install. All my hardware is supported by default in Linux. The drivers just work, and are part of the kernel.

You would be the exception then...not the rule. What hardware are you using anyway ?

Saying that linux isn't ready because of driver support doesn't make sense. In that respect, Windows is not ready either... I have to download a driver for just about every piece of hardware in my system for it to work right. You have to rely on manufactures for Windows drivers... so blame them. I have to spend hours installing them along with a boatload of updates the first time I install...

We are already blaming the hardware makers for either not having drivers, or not releasing docs to make said drivers.
That don't change the fact that it is incredibly difficult to find working drivers of anything new, since, most makers target windows.

 

[lxskllr]

You would be the exception then...not the rule. What hardware are you using anyway ?

I've had flawless installs on a P4 Northy system, a C2D system, a C2D lenovo laptop, and an Eee. None required configuration, or a search for drivers. Oh, and a AMD based Toshiba laptop. That was a quicky for my daughter, so I don't know about every detail, but all core functionality worked.

 

[ControlD]

You would be the exception then...not the rule. What hardware are you using anyway ?

My system is a Core i5-750 built on a P55 based motherboard with an AMD 7850 video card. After installing Mint 14 (and Mint 13 before that on the same system but with a 5770 video card) I had all core functionality working on my system. I did end up installing the actual AMD driver for my video card for gaming reasons, but the initial install gave me a fully working system without me needing to go driver hunting.

 

[sandorski]

I quit caring about a decade ago.

 

[Jodell88]

You would be the exception then...not the rule. What hardware are you using anyway ?

We are already blaming the hardware makers for either not having drivers, or not releasing docs to make said drivers.
That don't change the fact that it is incredibly difficult to find working drivers of anything new, since, most makers target windows.

He's not the exception at all. I also have no driver troubles in linux. However, I have the damn Optimus freezing issue in windows for which the only fix is to not use the nvidia card. I can use it all I want in Linux though.

 

[Jodell88]

I quit caring about a decade ago.

I quit caring about Windows as well. The only reason I use it is to play Dark Souls.

 

[sandorski]

I quit caring about Windows as well. The only reason I use it is to play Dark Souls.

You're in the Minority on that. That's not a bad thing, but true regardless.

 

[Cerb]

I've had flawless installs on a P4 Northy system, a C2D system, a C2D lenovo laptop, and an Eee. None required configuration, or a search for drivers. Oh, and a AMD based Toshiba laptop. That was a quicky for my daughter, so I don't know about every detail, but all core functionality worked.

...and then when you get the next kernel update?

3.5-3.7 were unstable with my X1400 (why?), I've given up Atheros wireless chips, Realtek USB NICs may or not be broken at some point in time with some distro, and I've yet to come across a case where HDA reliably keeps working for more than a few days w/o using Pulse, to abstract ALSA away. Oh, and let's not forget the cyclic power usage regressions that keep getting allowed in.

The problem isn't how much hardware it supports, but that that drivers really need to be allowed to somewhat divorced from the rest of the kernel's development. I use Arch, so it's easy for me to do it, but it's not something that should be required, and it's a structural development issue, not a problem of any coder.

 

[lxskllr]

...and then when you get the next kernel update?

I can't recall any problems of any kind updating. I've held back updates a couple times on Debian testing, but that's to be expected. I'm still on the 3.2 kernel. Packages are still getting unstuck from the freeze. I'd guesstimate it'll be another month or so before everything stabilizes.

 

[TSDible]

You would be the exception then...not the rule. What hardware are you using anyway ?

I'm running an i5 Lenovo ThinkPad. In and out of the docking station it has worked great. I specifically wanted to buy a system that would work with Linux because I wanted to make the switch.

That being said, I've run it on a variety of hardware. I can always get a working version of Linux going faster than Windows.

We are already blaming the hardware makers for either not having drivers, or not releasing docs to make said drivers.
That don't change the fact that it is incredibly difficult to find working drivers of anything new, since, most makers target windows.

Right. So that is the manufactures' fault. Not Linux.

 

[Jodell88]

We are already blaming the hardware makers for either not having drivers, or not releasing docs to make said drivers.
That don't change the fact that it is incredibly difficult to find working drivers of anything new, since, most makers target windows.

Intel has Linux drivers for haswell and that hasn't been released yet. Nvidia drivers has support for the 780GTX as well. If the manufacturer wants day one support they can do it if they want to.