The lies of the left...MoveOn

[Craig234]

so what's the government's excuse as to why it spends more than the governments of france, uk, and germany to cover about 25% of the population (if even that)?

Huh? Are you comparing apples and apples, Medicare only covers the elderly and disabled, not universal coverage.

The point is, that single-payer universal healthcare is far mroe efficient than the private insurance industry, which exists only to perpetuate draining trillons in profits.

 

[ElFenix]

Huh? Are you comparing apples and apples, Medicare only covers the elderly and disabled, not universal coverage.

no shit medicare covers only a fraction of the population, i specifically pointed that out in the post you quoted.

the US government (fed+state+local) spends more money per capita (all 300+ million of us) to cover the <25&#37; of the population that it covers than the krauts, frogs, and limeys do to cover just about their entire populations. you could ban private insurance tomorrow and we'd still be spending more money than western europe.

so, again, what is medicare's excuse?

 

[werepossum]

Soros has dictated that it's not necessary. The faithful follow...blindly.

Soros: U.S. Can Take on More Debt and Stop Obsessing About Budget Cuts

Soros is one of the leaders of the hard left that will intentionally destroy our country as it is presently constituted, leaving no choice but a hard socialist if not communist system in its place. Government will be all powerful and will have first claim on all wealth and wealth production, controlled by a relatively few incredibly rich families. Without a doubt he's the most dangerous man in America today.

 

[umbrella39]

Why do you hate America so much?

It's inborn with these guys.

 

[jonks]

Wasn't it the Democrats that came out screaming for civility after the Giffords shooting?

screaming for civility? you should trademark that one.

The right has never really made a big deal about civil debate... though the rhetoric has been historically less hysterical than the left (Fact, not opinion).

Which dictionary is it that you use?

 

[Genx87]

You're wrong.

The issue of simply the cost of an efficient system is AN issue - on with solutions, as other countries show.

The issue of the massive excessive costs of our privatized insurance system that simply takes hundreds of billions of the money spent for its profits and pointlessly expensive overhead like with redundant forms and operations, IS a huge issue, you are wrong to say otherwise.

The issue can't be fixed with your opinion - all you can do is keep cutting care and cutting care to protect the insurance industry. We need single payer healthcare.

The avg payout per claim in Medicare is higher than private insurance. Paperwork is more or a less a fixed cost. Thus what costs Medicare 100 dollars in paper work costs private insurance 100 dollars. If private insurance is paying out less per claim, their fixed costs are higher as a percentage.

You thinking medicare or a govt system would have more efficient overhead forgets this bit of information. Overhead costs would actually go up as a percentage as avg payout per claim falls under a govt run program.

And I can nearly gurantee you the amount of paper work involved with anything medical is due to govt regulation. So you cant blame private insurance for adhering to your beloved govt regulation.

 

[nick1985]

It's inborn with these guys.

And whats inborn with you?

 

[JimW1949]

so, again, what is medicare's excuse?

Medicare covers primarily older people, and disabled people. The older we get, the more likely we are to have medical issues. The cost of medical care for the elderly is proportionally MUCH higher than for any other age group. It is not uncommon for an elderly person to have medical expenses totaling thousands dollars per month. So unless an elderly person has an awful lot of money, he/she will not be able to meet the cost of their ever increasing medical bills. And even if they do have a lot of money saved up, it won't last long given the cost of medical care.

As far as privatizing Medicare is concerned, as has been mentioned, no insurance company with an ounce of sense would want to cover the elderly, unless the premiums were so exorbitant that the elderly could not possibly afford it. Health care insurance for the elderly is not something that is affordable without some sort of assistance, and in this case the assistance is Medicare.

I think it is important for the younger people to remember that some day they too will be part of the elderly crowd and the health care decisions made today will affect them in their retirement years.

 

[jonks]

This thread seemed like a good place to mention this.

Cliffs: Sen. John Kyl suggested shuting the gov't down over defunding PP was justified b/c "90&#37; of what they do is abortions". When it was pointed out that actually less than 4% of what they do is abortion, Kyl's office released the following: "&#8216;his remark was not intended to be a factual statement".

Stephen Colbert found Sen John Kyl's justification regarding his remarks about Planned Parenthood to be somewhat lacking.

Here's Colbert's twitterfeed: http://twitter.com/stephenathome

enjoy

 

[ElFenix]

Medicare covers primarily older people, and disabled people. The older we get, the more likely we are to have medical issues. The cost of medical care for the elderly is proportionally MUCH higher than for any other age group. It is not uncommon for an elderly person to have medical expenses totaling thousands dollars per month. So unless an elderly person has an awful lot of money, he/she will not be able to meet the cost of their ever increasing medical bills. And even if they do have a lot of money saved up, it won't last long given the cost of medical care.

so?

i don't think you're reading what i am writing. of course medicare covers the elderly who tend to cost more. i know that. that's not what i'm talking about.

again, divide the total cost of government medical/health spending in the US by the population of the US, and you get a number that is greater than the per capita government spending in the UK, france, or germany.

and our .gov spending covers a fraction of our population.

our government is covering just 25&#37; of our population for what their governments cover practically everyone.

if you want to see the magnitude of the difference between our government medical system and their government medical system, take everyone who is not currently on medicare/VA/schip and put them on those systems, then do not increase the funding a cent. and don't reduce health outcomes.

so, again, what is medicare's excuse?

 

[nick1985]

Soros has dictated that it's not necessary. The faithful follow...blindly.

Soros: U.S. Can Take on More Debt and Stop Obsessing About Budget Cuts

Thats some scary shit

 

[DesiPower]

This is nothing for them, their standards are much higher... remember "General Betrayus"?

 

[Darwin333]

You're wrong.

The issue of simply the cost of an efficient system is AN issue - on with solutions, as other countries show.

The issue of the massive excessive costs of our privatized insurance system that simply takes hundreds of billions of the money spent for its profits and pointlessly expensive overhead like with redundant forms and operations, IS a huge issue, you are wrong to say otherwise.

The issue can't be fixed with your opinion - all you can do is keep cutting care and cutting care to protect the insurance industry. We need single payer healthcare.

So why does Medicare/Medicaid cost so much to provide healthcare to so (relatively) few? If I understand Elfenix correctly and the numbers are accurate, the .gov should be able to provide healthcare to everyone for the same amount it currently spends on a few.

If we can have single payer for everyone for the exact same amount they are already currently collecting that would be real hard to argue against and probably should have been the hallmark of Obamacare. I wonder why it wasn't? No new taxes and I don't have to pay for health insurance anymore unless I want some sort of supplement to what the .gov offers, I don't know many people that wouldn't jump for joy if they were offered that.

Either the .gov isn't as efficient as you think or the Dems screwed the pooch worse than I could ever imagine. Myself and the vast majority of families I know would have effectively gotten a raise of $500-$1000+ a month. You put that kind of money into most middle class families pockets every month and you might actually get the progressive majority you so desperately desire. Again, with that kind of power at stake I would really appreciate hearing why they didn't or more specifically how the Republicans didn't allow them to do it even though the Republicans still tried everything in their power to block the abortion of a bill that did pass.

 

[JimW1949]

so?

i don't think you're reading what i am writing. of course medicare covers the elderly who tend to cost more. i know that. that's not what i'm talking about.

again, divide the total cost of government medical/health spending in the US by the population of the US, and you get a number that is greater than the per capita government spending in the UK, france, or germany.

and our .gov spending covers a fraction of our population.

our government is covering just 25% of our population for what their governments cover practically everyone.

if you want to see the magnitude of the difference between our government medical system and their government medical system, take everyone who is not currently on medicare/VA/schip and put them on those systems, then do not increase the funding a cent. and don't reduce health outcomes.

so, again, what is medicare's excuse?

I don't think you are reading what I am writing either. According to the government's statistics, half of the population spends little or nothing on health care, while 5 percent of the population spends almost half of the total amount.

So, covering the rest of the people in the United States would be extremely cheap as compared with covering the elderly.

Here is a link to the information.
http://www.ahrq.gov/research/ria19/expendria.htm

But there is another problem, probably more serious than most people realize, and that is fraud. Here is a link to that information.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/60minutes/main5414390.shtml

Yes, the cost of Medicare is unusually high, but the high cost is caused by the group of people covered, and it is caused by fraud. Now, there is no question that the government needs to be better able to catch and prosecute those who fraud the system. But I think a better question is, why are so many Americans trying to steal from the system?

 

[QuantumPion]

How does moveon suggest we balance the budget?

Spend more. That will grow the economy and thus eventually balance the budget. :awe:

 

[boomerang]

Soros is one of the leaders of the hard left that will intentionally destroy our country as it is presently constituted, leaving no choice but a hard socialist if not communist system in its place. Government will be all powerful and will have first claim on all wealth and wealth production, controlled by a relatively few incredibly rich families. Without a doubt he's the most dangerous man in America today.

Time after time I have suggested that people research his background and all I hear are crickets. He's on a quest to make himself the master of the world. Pain, suffering and misery actually embolden him. He wants to die with the most toys. Toys for him are economies and countries.

I said in another thread that if he's for something, I know it's wrong. He comes across as this kind giver to liberal causes. It's PR. It's what he has to do to fly under the radar to achieve his goals. The economy of the US is the golden ring. If he can collapse our economy, he can die a happy man.

The left evidently feels that the right is out to kill the middle class. I read it everywhere and it's echoed here. I understand that they will never be talked out of those notions. What they fail to see is that the form of government they desire, the form of government a man like Mr. Soros will thrust upon us is worse. The end result will be everyone with nothing but sharing equally in misery. As you said, only a few, a very few will be unaffected. They will live in luxury. History shows us the end result of this form of government.

How progressives and the left cannot recognize evil when they see it is something I find pretty disturbing. I've felt for some time that there is a good chance that the day will come when we'll have to make a hard choice. The choice to fight or capitulate. When "the enemy" is a physical entity, one can fight. When your enemy collapses your economy, your fight is for survival - getting something to eat. Our "saviors" will present themselves. They will have the answers and it will have begun.

The chasm between the right and the left is so very wide. I see no common ground.

Divide and conquer.

 

[werepossum]

Time after time I have suggested that people research his background and all I hear are crickets. He's on a quest to make himself the master of the world. Pain, suffering and misery actually embolden him. He wants to die with the most toys. Toys for him are economies and countries.

I said in another thread that if he's for something, I know it's wrong. He comes across as this kind giver to liberal causes. It's PR. It's what he has to do to fly under the radar to achieve his goals. The economy of the US is the golden ring. If he can collapse our economy, he can die a happy man.

The left evidently feels that the right is out to kill the middle class. I read it everywhere and it's echoed here. I understand that they will never be talked out of those notions. What they fail to see is that the form of government they desire, the form of government a man like Mr. Soros will thrust upon us is worse. The end result will be everyone with nothing but sharing equally in misery. As you said, only a few, a very few will be unaffected. They will live in luxury. History shows us the end result of this form of government.

How progressives and the left cannot recognize evil when they see it is something I find pretty disturbing. I've felt for some time that there is a good chance that the day will come when we'll have to make a hard choice. The choice to fight or capitulate. When "the enemy" is a physical entity, one can fight. When your enemy collapses your economy, your fight is for survival - getting something to eat. Our "saviors" will present themselves. They will have the answers and it will have begun.

The chasm between the right and the left is so very wide. I see no common ground.

Divide and conquer.

Well said.

 

[nick1985]

Well said.

very

 

[ElFenix]

I don't think you are reading what I am writing either. According to the government's statistics, half of the population spends little or nothing on health care, while 5 percent of the population spends almost half of the total amount.

So, covering the rest of the people in the United States would be extremely cheap as compared with covering the elderly.

Here is a link to the information.
http://www.ahrq.gov/research/ria19/expendria.htm

see now that is different from what you wrote before. before you were basically pointing out that old people are expensive. now you're adding that basically no one else costs anything.

But there is another problem, probably more serious than most people realize, and that is fraud. Here is a link to that information.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/60minutes/main5414390.shtml

well, isn't that overhead :hmm:

 

[JimW1949]

see now that is different from what you wrote before. before you were basically pointing out that old people are expensive. now you're adding that basically no one else costs anything.



well, isn't that overhead :hmm:

I am not trying to pick an argument with you, in fact, I am not saying anything that the United States Government isn't saying. I don't make up these statistics, I am just saying what the statistics are and I gave the source of the statistics.

As far as fraud being part of overhead, you are absolutely correct, it is part of overhead. But fraud is not confined to government, you see it all the time on Wall Street, in big business, in insurance companies, and pretty everyplace else. You need only pick up a newspaper on any given day to confirm that. Hardly a day goes by without some scandal being discovered. Fraud seems to be running rampant in America, and it would be nice if we could put an end to the fraud, in ALL areas, not just government.

 

[NeoV]

jesus - you anti-Soros guys are a bunch of wack-jobs

when did he trade places on your target list with Gore?

 

[jonks]

Well said.

I pray you are merely humoring him.

 

[comptr6]

jesus - you anti-Soros guys are a bunch of wack-jobs

when did he trade places on your target list with Gore?

Why don't you pull your libtard head out of your progressive ass and open your leftist eyes to what's really going on before you start calling people wack-jobs.

 

[Steeplerot]

Why don't you pull your libtard head out of your progressive ass and open your leftist eyes to what's really going on before you start calling people wack-jobs.

Oh noes the j00s!
Whats your handle on stormfront?

 

[sportage]

But for those who turn 65 before then, there would be no changes at all, even after 2022.

Holy crap! That tells me Ryan has plans to kill everyone off that turns 65 before then!
That explains why Ryan has also just applied for a patent for "Ryan's Old Fashion Kool Aid (Expiration Date 2022 NOTE: Not For The Product, The User)".