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The lie that is Dick Cheney: His allegations on CIA torture memos false

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Can someone explain to me why they haven't released the memo if it does in fact prove Cheney to be wrong??

"Justice department lawyers report" is not the same as reading the memo for yourself.

Good question. Something I would like to know. I suspect it's because it would put the previous administration in a criminal light? Not that the American public for the most part believe the previous wonder duo was not criminal 🙂

I think if they did we might have to put them on the stand like the UK is doing with Blair.
 
Torture is useless for getting information, and shouldn't be used in interrogations, now if they are found guilty, confess or get caught in the act, and their actions are beyond question I have no problem with cruel and unusual punishment for terrorist.

You should.

Our founding fathers said for a reason no crime deserves 'cruel and unusual punishment'. That hasn't changed that it's wrong.

It's always 'tempting' for evil people who dehumanize others to use such punishment. 'Those savage Indians! Those commies! Those Nazis!' And on and on. It's wrong for anyone.

You want to put the US with the evil regimes that use torture.
 
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Ok Tristicus, this question is for you and you alone to answer.

And here is the question. Somehow, by whatever twist of fate, you are the one the CIA suspects, and they ask you, did you do it, and you say no.

So they start in on you, pouring water in your face, then graduating to waterboarding, and
whatever torture required to change that no answer to a yes. In other words, innocent or guilty, torture anyone enough, and they will admit to anything to make the pain stop.

And they will incriminate anyone else in the process, regardless if its true or false.

Now answer, Tristicus, if it were you they were torturing, what would you do?

I'd love it.
 
Can someone explain to me why they haven't released the memo if it does in fact prove Cheney to be wrong??

"Justice department lawyers report" is not the same as reading the memo for yourself.

so the memo lied, and cheney relied on it? that doesn't necessarily make cheney a liar.

I think some things need be mentioned here:

1. We have Obama Admin lawyers looking at a document from the Bush years and saying it's wrong so that proves it? That's a total 'fail' in terms of objectivity not to mention possible political bias.

2. The May '03 vs '02 is old news; we've discussed it here long ago. How trotting this old news out now is somehow a new 'revelation' disproving Cheney and others (head of CIA etc.) is highly questionable.

3. It begs the question of what else is in memo and why we can't see it.

Fern
 
Yeah! No to torture! It turns us into them! But have some 20 year old push a button from 5000 miles away and kill a group of people on the ground we believe to be terrorists from 20,000 feet based on sketchy intel info... Nobel Peace Prize baby!
 
Yeah! No to torture! It turns us into them! But have some 20 year old push a button from 5000 miles away and kill a group of people on the ground we believe to be terrorists from 20,000 feet based on sketchy intel info... Nobel Peace Prize baby!

I can't begin to count the number of things wrong with your post. They don't make numbers that high. Here's the biggie:

- Sketchy intel info is sketchy intel info, whether acquired through torture or some other way. When it's a crap shoot on whether or not the info you have is sketchy, why bother reducing yourself and your country to the same level as the terrorists? Why give them the satisfaction of making you change who you are and what your country stands for?
 
I can't begin to count the number of things wrong with your post. They don't make numbers that high. Here's the biggie:

- Sketchy intel info is sketchy intel info, whether acquired through torture or some other way. When it's a crap shoot on whether or not the info you have is sketchy, why bother reducing yourself and your country to the same level as the terrorists? Why give them the satisfaction of making you change who you are and what your country stands for?

Yeah I should stand there and sing the national anthem while I watch the 737 fly into my office building. At least I am not comprimising what this country stands for then! 🙄

I'm wondering if the WWII soldiers who shot prisoners who were surrendering, beat the shit out of captured german soldiers, tortured them for info, those who knowingly bombed targets civilians were at, those who developed and dropped the nuke on Japan, etc.. were they changing what their country stood for or were they doing what was necessary during war time to defeat the enemy?

We dropped two NUKES on major cities in Japan to end a war.. and you think some waterboarding is going to fundamentally change what we stand for? I don't think so.
 
I can't begin to count the number of things wrong with your post. They don't make numbers that high. Here's the biggie:

- Sketchy intel info is sketchy intel info, whether acquired through torture or some other way. When it's a crap shoot on whether or not the info you have is sketchy, why bother reducing yourself and your country to the same level as the terrorists? Why give them the satisfaction of making you change who you are and what your country stands for?

My understanding is that info obtained (whether tradionally or using EIT) is followed up on so it can be verified. Many in this thread act as though efforts cease upon waterboarding or other methods so info is always crap. That's not how it is though.

Fern
 
The issue is not of common and regular torture. That is not, and has never been, more than the stretch which has been used to attack the deliberate response policies of the Bush Administration following the attacks against the country on 9/11.

The realistic question is, does the country have a vested interest in allowing extraordinary actions to preserve the safety and security of the nation that are under other circumstances anathema.

Interrogation by torture, peremptory assassination, use of weapons of mass destruction and other actions of war are loathsome. But it is a fool who is an absolutist in either supporting or rejecting actions of this consequence.

The reality of the world is that while we adopt legal constructs which reflect our core values, we do so in the context of facing enemies who have no caring for either the underlying principles we advocate nor any interest in moderating their own actions.

Non-state enemies, insane ideologues, fanatics of all ilks are part of the reality of these times as they have been in the past and they are as apt to work in concert as not. The threat from both individual and group is greater now as technology has entered more dangerous means of destruction into the equation.

There are no pacifist nations. The government is charged with the defense and preservation of this nation. To do less is to invite both attack and dissolution. No government will stand that does not protect and defend.

If a nuclear or biological weapon is used against the American population, there will be no excuse of following cautious legal procedures, no acceptable reference to policy that did not work, no appeal to high minded principles and prevarications that would prevail. The government would and should fall so that another can fulfill the responsibility required of it.

It is ludicrous to point to the rare (total of 3 instances?) exceptions to the generally laudable policies prohibiting waterboarding and to say that a slippery slope has been broached. It is equally ludicrous to commit to a policy of regular interrogation by torture.

Waterboarding is torturous. There is nothing fun about it. All who have experienced it can attest to how effective it is and how strong the drive is to escape the sensation of asphyxiation. As it is not exactly painful and it is not fatal, it can be considered a "lesser" and impermanent form of torture. It remains an exceptionally effective way to break the will of someone if there is a specific and pressing requirement for exigency.

How does one codify an appropriate circumstance whence it may be legitimately applied? I don't believe one can, other than to allow exceptional consideration at the national command level when there is clear, present and immediate danger unless information is gained immediately by whatever means are possible.

Better a blanket rejection of all torture than a blanket acceptance. But exceptions in very specific circumstances must be considered and allowed for else we are confronted with our own stupidity at the cost of untold lives.
 
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Yeah I should stand there and sing the national anthem while I watch the 737 fly into my office building. At least I am not comprimising what this country stands for then! 🙄

Try being less flippant once in a while.. it will help your argument.

I'm wondering if the WWII soldiers who shot prisoners who were surrendering, beat the shit out of captured german soldiers, tortured them for info, those who knowingly bombed targets civilians were at, those who developed and dropped the nuke on Japan, etc.. were they changing what their country stood for or were they doing what was necessary during war time to defeat the enemy?

Torture is not an American value, and its use does change what America stands for. The rest was necessary for the war at the time in history in which it was waged.

We dropped two NUKES on major cities in Japan to end a war.. and you think some waterboarding is going to fundamentally change what we stand for? I don't think so.

The nukes we dropped on Japan killed fewer people (more humanely, too, I would add) than who would've died had the war continued.
 
Not sure I care why a report that was 5 years in the making and which has been thoroughly destroyed is valid anyway. No doubt there will be those who bitch because the following link is from the National Review, but that's because the MSM hasn't mentioned a single word on how the legal community is reacting to the OPR report itself.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MzE4YWFkNDk1NTVkZTVhZmVlNjdiMGVhYzVkMmYyOGM=

President Bush’s final attorney general, Michael Mukasey, and deputy attorney general, Mark Filip — former federal judges widely respected across the political spectrum for their intellect and command of the law — eviscerated a draft of the report. They had to do so quickly — OPR, knowing they were tough graders, dumped it in their laps near the end of their tenure — but they put their criticism in writing and provided it to the incoming Justice leadership. Holder did not see fit to release Mukasey and Filip’s letter last Friday night with the rest of the “bad news,” so Andy McCarthy did the honors.

Also defending Yoo is well-known Washington attorney Miguel Estrada, who emigrated from Honduras at 17, graduated from Columbia and Harvard Law School magna cum laude (much like President Obama), was an editor on the Harvard Law Review (also like the president), clerked for a Supreme Court justice, served as a federal prosecutor in New York, argued cases before the Supreme Court while in the Solicitor General’s Office at the Justice Department, and has become one of the nation’s leading appellate lawyers at a major international law firm. (Bush nominated him to an appeals court, but the Left blocked the nomination.) “Having seen OPR’s work and tactics up close,” Estrada told us, “I would have a hard time choosing one dominant trait in their approach. It is probably a three-way tie between stupidity, rank incompetence, and partisan malignancy.”

And what did Maureen Mahoney, who represented Bybee, think of OPR’s work? In the conclusion of her objections to OPR’s report, she sums it up with typical panache: “We have, in OPR’s report, the poor execution of a bad idea.” Ms. Mahoney is not just any lawyer. She was a senior official in the Solicitor General’s Office in the 1980s and went on to become a legendary litigator and appellate lawyer at a leading international law firm. Like Estrada, Ms. Mahoney is someone whose credentials and experience as a top-flight lawyer cannot be seriously doubted.

And what about Jack Goldsmith, who became head of OLC after Bybee and withdrew the most controversial opinions written by Yoo? Goldsmith is a well-known Harvard Law School professor and author of a book, The Terror Presidency, that describes the extraordinary challenges of his time at OLC. Some on the left praised that book, seeing it as a denunciation of Yoo and Bybee; but actually, Goldsmith’s arguments are complex and can’t be converted into soundbites. For example, although Goldsmith did not think highly of Yoo’s analysis in some of the memos, he agreed that none of the interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, violated U.S. law. He also believed that Yoo had come to his views honestly and did not merely use them as a cover to justify torture. Goldsmith warned OPR against second-guessing Yoo and Bybee, particularly without considering the context in which they were operating at the time, with 9/11 still fresh and the ever-present fear of a follow-on attack. OPR ignored Goldsmith’s warning.

Finally, we return to David Margolis, who was tasked with determining whether the OPR had adequately justified its conclusions about Yoo and Bybee. Margolis decisively rejects OPR’s report. Because of his position at Justice, Margolis is far more polite than Estrada or Mahoney, but no less devastating to OPR. He identifies numerous errors in OPR’s work, many of the embarrassing sort that are attributable only to carelessness and a lack of intellectual rigor, and consistently sides with Mukasey, Filip, Estrada, Mahoney, and Goldsmith.

Margolis explains that OPR’s theories continued to “evolve” from draft to draft, and that he could discern no coherent standard employed by OPR. Margolis does conclude that Yoo and Bybee exercised “poor judgment” in the analysis and conclusions they presented in one of the memoranda under review (but, notably, not the other two). But that is really no different than what the Justice Department concluded under Bush, which is why all three memoranda were either withdrawn or superseded years ago.
 
Not sure I care why a report that was 5 years in the making and which has been thoroughly destroyed is valid anyway. No doubt there will be those who bitch because the following link is from the National Review, but that's because the MSM hasn't mentioned a single word on how the legal community is reacting to the OPR report itself.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MzE4YWFkNDk1NTVkZTVhZmVlNjdiMGVhYzVkMmYyOGM=

Good find on that pointer to the response letter from the Office of the Attorney General. It is most definitely worth reading in the entirety -

Response Letter Of The Office Of The Attorney General
 
Try being less flippant once in a while.. it will help your argument.



Torture is not an American value, and its use does change what America stands for. The rest was necessary for the war at the time in history in which it was waged.



The nukes we dropped on Japan killed fewer people (more humanely, too, I would add) than who would've died had the war continued.

I'm not arguing against the a-bomb by any means. But I guess I don't see how killing 100's of thousands of civilians to end a war somehow had no effect on us as a nation but taking a couple dozen terrorists and smacking them around a bit does.
 
I'm not arguing against the a-bomb by any means. But I guess I don't see how killing 100's of thousands of civilians to end a war somehow had no effect on us as a nation but taking a couple dozen terrorists and smacking them around a bit does.

Nothing like the idiocy of a blood thirsty jackass willing to sacifice the very freedoms and principles he claims he's trying to defend. 😡

Talk to us after the jack booted thugs smack you around to elicit a confession for crimes you didn't happen commit or information you never had or even imagined. If you're permanently injured or killed in the course of your "enhanced" interrogation, no amount of apologies will undo the damage.

But screw the Constitutional presumption of innocence. I'm sure you're willing to put your body on the line simply because someone in some position of power thinks you'll eventually crack and give them the "information" he thinks you may have...

Or maybe that official doesn't give a shit whether you actually have any information, and all he wants to do is make a public example of you...

Or maybe he's just pissed at you...

Or maybe you just happen to be the random body he picked for his public dog and pony show...

Or maybe he's just a sadistic asshole like Dickwad Cheney who wants to make you his personal piñata.

Enjoy the torture! And don't forget to shoot video and post it on youtube. 🙄
 
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Yeah I should stand there and sing the national anthem while I watch the 737 fly into my office building. At least I am not comprimising what this country stands for then! 🙄

I'm wondering if the WWII soldiers who shot prisoners who were surrendering, beat the shit out of captured german soldiers, tortured them for info, those who knowingly bombed targets civilians were at, those who developed and dropped the nuke on Japan, etc.. were they changing what their country stood for or were they doing what was necessary during war time to defeat the enemy?

We dropped two NUKES on major cities in Japan to end a war.. and you think some waterboarding is going to fundamentally change what we stand for? I don't think so.

Gee, I guess the US Army, who has court-martialed soldiers for waterboarding, doesn't understand what we stand for as well as you, huh? I guess you know more then the military, right? Not.
 
Yeah I should stand there and sing the national anthem while I watch the 737 fly into my office building. At least I am not comprimising what this country stands for then! 🙄

I'm wondering if the WWII soldiers who shot prisoners who were surrendering, beat the shit out of captured german soldiers, tortured them for info, those who knowingly bombed targets civilians were at, those who developed and dropped the nuke on Japan, etc.. were they changing what their country stood for or were they doing what was necessary during war time to defeat the enemy?

We dropped two NUKES on major cities in Japan to end a war.. and you think some waterboarding is going to fundamentally change what we stand for? I don't think so.

Gee, I guess the US Army, who has court-martialed soldiers for waterboarding, doesn't understand what we stand for as well as you, huh? I guess you know more then the military, right? Not.

He also seems to have forgotten that our military executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding in WW II. I wonder if Dickwad Cheney understands the meaning of the words inscribed above the west portico of the Supreme Court:

800px-CourtEqualJustice.JPG
 
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This entire subject is moot. As a country, we have moved beyond this. Under the power of the executive pen, we have options to send our captured evil doers to other countries that have perfected the methods of extracting useful information with real torture.
Have we exercised our options? & How would you ever know?
 
Can someone explain to me why they haven't released the memo if it does in fact prove Cheney to be wrong??

"Justice department lawyers report" is not the same as reading the memo for yourself.

Feigned righteous indignation works best when presented without something that might draw your attention away from your emotions.
 
I'm not arguing against the a-bomb by any means. But I guess I don't see how killing 100's of thousands of civilians to end a war somehow had no effect on us as a nation but taking a couple dozen terrorists and smacking them around a bit does.

Dropping A-bombs on Japan in WW2 did have an effect on us as a nation, but in a good way. The threat of nuclear war (and the accompanying M.A.D) has been the single greatest motivator to keep those nuclear weapons from being used among nations that have them. Once their destructive power had been demonstrated, it became clear that they must never be used again.

Torture of terrorists, on the other hand, has a negative effect on us as a nation for many reasons, not the least of which being that it becomes a rallying cry for other terrorists. Our actions have a profound effect on the youngest generations; forming or cementing a negative opinion of the US that we will later have to work that much harder to reverse.
 
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Nothing like the idiocy of a blood thirsty jackass willing to sacifice the very freedoms and principles he claims he's trying to defend. 😡

Talk to us after the jack booted thugs smack you around to elicit a confession for crimes you didn't happen commit or information you never had or even imagined. If you're permanently injured or killed in the course of your "enhanced" interrogation, no amount of apologies will undo the damage.

But screw the Constitutional presumption of innocence. I'm sure you're willing to put your body on the line simply because someone in some position of power thinks you'll eventually crack and give them the "information" he thinks you may have...

Or maybe that official doesn't give a shit whether you actually have any information, and all he wants to do is make a public example of you...

Or maybe he's just pissed at you...

Or maybe you just happen to be the random body he picked for his public dog and pony show...

Or maybe he's just a sadistic asshole like Dickwad Cheney who wants to make you his personal piñata.

Enjoy the torture! And don't forget to shoot video and post it on youtube. 🙄

I openly stated I am 100% open to being tortured if I commit an act of terrorism or try to against another country. My position is consistent at least. What I don't understand is why you support a proven traitor like Obama. At least be consistent with your position and hold your hero to the same standards as you hold Bush and Cheney.

I like how Obama applies his "presumption of innocence" from 20,000 feet and a hellfire missile and you are tickled pink by his ability to slaughter civilians because he's a democrat.

Its sad that your decision to hold people accountable depends in if there is an R or a D next to their name. Disgusting! :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: 😡 :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
 
Dropping A-bombs on Japan in WW2 did have an effect on us as a nation, but in a good way. The threat of nuclear war (and the accompanying M.A.D) has been the single greatest motivator to keep those nuclear weapons from being used among nations that have them. Once their destructive power had been demonstrated, it became clear that they must never be used again.

Torture of terrorists, on the other hand, has a negative effect on us as a nation for many reasons, not the least of which being that it becomes a rallying cry for other terrorists. Our actions have a profound effect on the youngest generations; forming or cementing a negative opinion of the US that we will later have to work that much harder to reverse.

So we should probably do something equally as impressive to let the terrorists know they can't win? Like give them lawyers, trials, free room & board, nice shiny new copies of the Koran, fitness centers, etc. THAT will teach them!
 
So we should probably do something equally as impressive to let the terrorists know they can't win?

That won't work, unfortunately. Terrorists are not a nation with national concerns, and they cannot be persuaded like Japan was. What we have to do is two things simultaneously: thwart their attempts to attack, and work to remove the culture/ideology in which new terrorists are created. The first is best accomplished by securing reliable intelligence and good police work, and the second requires both diplomacy (a *lot* of diplomacy) and targeted military action.

Like give them lawyers, trials, free room & board, nice shiny new copies of the Koran, fitness centers, etc. THAT will teach them!

Being flippant and spewing hyperbole is all you ever seem to do. *yawn*..
 
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