The liberals $43 billion train to no where...

[HendrixFan]

Is $100 billion just a number to you?

We waste much more than that with our government, at least this one will have more tangible returns.

Think of how much we have wasted on buying up shitty securities at full value, or how much we have spent on wars, or how much we spend on defense not including the wars, or how much we spend paying interest on our debt while deficit spending even further.

Besides, I'm sure the increased costs were due to the contractors raping government as they always do. This project would be alot better if big government swallowed it and did it themselves.

 

[airdata]

I bet if a republican proposed this deal, the thread title would be "CHOO CHOO, bitches!" or something along the lines of that.

 

[woolfe9999]

I like the concept of HSR, for certain applications, and I certainly like the stimulatory effect of this type of project. However, the price tag is getting to be monstrously high. I don't think the state can afford this right now even with some federal and private sector money helping out. Sounds like something we need to put on ice until the budget situation improves.

 

[Genx87]

We waste much more than that with our government, at least this one will have more tangible returns.

Think of how much we have wasted on buying up shitty securities at full value, or how much we have spent on wars, or how much we spend on defense not including the wars, or how much we spend paying interest on our debt while deficit spending even further.

Besides, I'm sure the increased costs were due to the contractors raping government as they always do. This project would be alot better if big government swallowed it and did it themselves.

So because other area's of govt are wasteful the wasteful nature of this project is justified?
Just think if we decided to stop a lot of this type of wasteful spending? Erase the wars, the securities subsidizing, the deficit spending, trains to nowhere that cost 100 billion and rising.

 

[K1052]

Try 98.5 billion http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-high-speed-rail-20111101,0,1124440.story

Or $65B in 2010 dollars, $98B accounts for inflation over the life of the project.

It is increasingly dubious that the project will ever be built due to the escalating price tag, the fact the the CA HSR org seems unable to remove their head from their collective ass, and the strenuous opposition in the peninsula from NIMBYs.

I expect the CA legislature will shelve it and the 5.5B federal dollars will go back on the table to be awarded elsewhere, most likely for projects in the NEC and around Chicago where the states will follow through and use the money.

 

[Bacstar]

Pretty shocking what $100 billion will build in this country. No wonder our infrastructure is falling apart.

I did a little reading on China's HSR project and by the time they're done in 2020, it's projected to have cost them $300 billion (not sure if it's dollars or Yuan) for 16,000 miles of track.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China

 

[K1052]

Pretty shocking what $100 billion will build in this country. No wonder our infrastructure is falling apart.

I did a little reading on China's HSR project and by the time they're done in 2020, it's projected to have cost them $300 billion (not sure if it's dollars or Yuan) for 16,000 miles of track.

Well the Chinese don't generally have to worry about property rights, labor cost, environmental review, etc in the ways that western countries do. You can't just bulldoze a neighborhood anymore to make a new right of way for rail or a road without running into a lot of opposition.

 

[Ninjahedge]

http://flights.expedia.com/Flights_tfaOSFO_DLAX.htm

There were 1,121,607 passengers that flew from San Francisco to Los Angeles in 2009.

UNITED carried a total of 607,306 passengers from SFO to LAX in 2009.

We found 6 airline companies operating between SFO and LAX.

Alaska Airlines, American Airlines, Delta Airlines, Skywest Air, UNITED and Virgin America serve flights from San Francisco, CA to Los Angeles, CA.

The shortest distance between San Francisco and Los Angeles is 337 miles.

Alaska Airlines, American Airlines and UNITED operate the shortest flights from SFO to LAX.

The shortest flight between SFO and LAX takes 53 minutes.

The average flight time from San Francisco, CA to Los Angeles, CA is 54 minutes.

UNITED offers the quickest flights from San Francisco to Los Angeles.

The average aircraft occupancy on flights from San Francisco to Los Angeles in 2009 was 72.22%.

For all flights from SFO to LAX there were 1,445,280 seats available and 1,121,607 passengers transported.

The smallest aircraft servicing flights from SFO to LAX for Skywest Air is the EMB-120 built by EMBRAER with 30 seats.

The largest aircraft servicing flights between San Francisco and Los Angeles from UNITED is the B777-2 built by BOEING with 257 seats.

The oldest aircraft servicing trips from San Francisco, CA to Los Angeles, CA in 2009 was American Airlines' B757-2 from BOEING which started flying in 1990.

The newest aircraft servicing SFO to LAX flights in 2009 was Alaska Airlines' B737-9 from BOEING which started flying in 2002.

Flight #703, operated by UNITED, was the flight with the most delays in 2009, with 21 minutes between flights from San Francisco to Los Angeles.

UNITED operated flights from SFO to LAX using 7 types of aircraft in 2009.

 

[Darwin333]

Pretty shocking what $100 billion will build in this country. No wonder our infrastructure is falling apart.

I did a little reading on China's HSR project and by the time they're done in 2020, it's projected to have cost them $300 billion (not sure if it's dollars or Yuan) for 16,000 miles of track.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China

I was thinking the same thing. Has anyone ran the numbers to see how many millions per mile of track this project costs?

Not that I disagree with investing in infrastructure but damn that just seems absurdly expensive for a relatively small rail line. Then again I know fuckall about high speed rail or how much it costs.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Well the Chinese don't generally have to worry about property rights, labor cost, environmental review, etc in the ways that western countries do. You can't just bulldoze a neighborhood anymore to make a new right of way for rail or a road without running into a lot of opposition.

The giant dams being an example of just that..... (What valley were they flooding and telling the natives to "Get the hell out"..."please"?)

 

[Darwin333]

http://flights.expedia.com/Flights_tfaOSFO_DLAX.htm

IF a person could avoid the showing up 2 or 3 hours early bullshit that flying requires and it was equally priced I would imagine they could get damn near all of those travelers to use the train.

Unfortunately, I would bet a years pay that an equal amount of TSA bullshit will be encountered with the high speed rail as commercial airports.

 

[K1052]

The giant dams being an example of just that..... (What valley were they flooding and telling the natives to "Get the hell out"..."please"?)

Three Gorges Dam. They made 1.5ish million people move. Not exactly a practical approach for large projects in already developed nations anymore.

 

[K1052]

I was thinking the same thing. Has anyone ran the numbers to see how many millions per mile of track this project costs?

Not that I disagree with investing in infrastructure but damn that just seems absurdly expensive for a relatively small rail line. Then again I know fuckall about high speed rail or how much it costs.

It's impossible to say now that the plan keeps changing. You'll need a crystal ball to figure out what the inflation impact will actually be if they move completion to 2033 like they are proposing. All signs are pointing to this project getting axed.

 

[Ninjahedge]

I think it would work nicely, but it has to be planned correctly.

What would be the use of a bullet train if you started putting stops in between to keep the peons happy?

While the expense is debatable, 1M passengers a year on the plane is an indicator that this could be a really strong link widely used.

If you could get $100 per passenger (coach) and $500 per "luxury", hopefully at a 20% profit margin..... you could get (say 10% luxury) $28M/year.

Unfortunately, that works out to (NOT including inflation) 3571 years to break even!

 

[HendrixFan]

So because other area's of govt are wasteful the wasteful nature of this project is justified?
Just think if we decided to stop a lot of this type of wasteful spending? Erase the wars, the securities subsidizing, the deficit spending, trains to nowhere that cost 100 billion and rising.

No, it is silly to bitch and moan about wasteful infrastructure projects when we spend nearly a trillion a year with no meaningful return. This one provides a tangible return on investment via infrastructure. The debate then is fair cost versus fair return.

 

[RampantAndroid]

I bet if a republican proposed this deal, the thread title would be "CHOO CHOO, bitches!" or something along the lines of that.

Quiz: Which presidential candidate (from the past - not this year) wants to stop subsidizing Amtrak?

 

[K1052]

I think it would work nicely, but it has to be planned correctly.

What would be the use of a bullet train if you started putting stops in between to keep the peons happy?

While the expense is debatable, 1M passengers a year on the plane is an indicator that this could be a really strong link widely used.

If you could get $100 per passenger (coach) and $500 per "luxury", hopefully at a 20% profit margin..... you could get (say 10% luxury) $28M/year.

Unfortunately, that works out to (NOT including inflation) 3571 years to break even!

In built up areas there would be 4 track lines to accommodate local service and not slow down the express trains.

That 1M figure is just between LAX and SFO. Not counting LBG, ONT, BUR, SJC, or OAK. Or the people in cars.

For comparison the NEC does something like 10-11M riders a year presently.

 

[Macamus Prime]

If a democrat cured cancer you'd bitch that it's just more people to fund through SS and Medicare later wouldn't you?

These people will now living longer and are draining the Earth's resources!!!!shift+1!!!

 

[alphatarget1]

Three Gorges Dam. They made 1.5ish million people move. Not exactly a practical approach for large projects in already developed nations anymore.

The figure will probably be closer to 5 million when it's all said and done.

 

[bfdd]

I like the concept of HSR, for certain applications, and I certainly like the stimulatory effect of this type of project. However, the price tag is getting to be monstrously high. I don't think the state can afford this right now even with some federal and private sector money helping out. Sounds like something we need to put on ice until the budget situation improves.

I agree. I'm a huge fan of HSR, I'd love to have it up and down California. I'm kind of over driving a car everywhere, but we can't afford it right now ;| We need to get business back to being excited to be in California so we can make some more money to afford it.

 

[Acanthus]

Make sure you ignore all of the residual effects.

Reduction in traffic, reduction in pollution, reduction in commute times by car, reduction in wear and tear on highways, jobs via construction, upkeep, engineers, security and ticket sales, Reduced reliance on oil, and other states can view the success/failure of the system to evaluate some of their own options with HSR.

It is a tremendous amount of money, but we also haven't considered that the engineering may have been designed to withstand substantially more use (than the Chinese design) before needing serious maintenance, and the differences in safety levels.

Haven't there already been accidents with the HSR system in China?

 

[Ninjahedge]

Why don't you do a bit of research on Tokyo/Japan to get a better idea about this....

If any place has a more similar geography, high population densities and seismic risk, it is Japan...

 

[woolfe9999]

Make sure you ignore all of the residual effects.

Reduction in traffic, reduction in pollution, reduction in commute times by car, reduction in wear and tear on highways, jobs via construction, upkeep, engineers, security and ticket sales, Reduced reliance on oil, and other states can view the success/failure of the system to evaluate some of their own options with HSR.

It is a tremendous amount of money, but we also haven't considered that the engineering may have been designed to withstand substantially more use (than the Chinese design) before needing serious maintenance, and the differences in safety levels.

Haven't there already been accidents with the HSR system in China?

I agree that there are numerous positive residual effects largely being ignored by the anti-HSR neigh sayers here. Still, the project is projected to cost $98.5 currently. Last I heard we were running a serious deficit here and having to cut a lot of important services like education.

 

[Throckmorton]

Make sure you ignore all of the residual effects.

Reduction in traffic, reduction in pollution, reduction in commute times by car, reduction in wear and tear on highways, jobs via construction, upkeep, engineers, security and ticket sales, Reduced reliance on oil, and other states can view the success/failure of the system to evaluate some of their own options with HSR.

It is a tremendous amount of money, but we also haven't considered that the engineering may have been designed to withstand substantially more use (than the Chinese design) before needing serious maintenance, and the differences in safety levels.

Haven't there already been accidents with the HSR system in China?

Those are benefits of commuter rail systems, not hsr

 

[Acanthus]

Those are benefits of commuter rail systems, not hsr

A lot of people commute between these areas on a regular basis in CA, am i way off base here? I don't live in CA, but i've heard about the horrific traffic and commute times. ESPECIALLY in the bay area and LA.