The Lemon List

[bradly1101]

Interesting.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...ops-in-autoguide-s-1st-annual-lemon-list.html

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Okaaay... so Honda may have a rate of one lemon for 2.7M cars (or two for every 3.2M if you roll in the Acura numbers) but they only sell 1.6M cars a year. So, like, they made approximately one crappy car per year? Or, with annual US sales in the ~50k range, Porsche apparently makes one lemon every two years. How do mechanics stay in business?

That's basically impossible to reconcile with stats like: An estimated 150,000 cars each year (or 1% of new cars) are lemons...

Using consumer reporting to define "lemon" is pretty much broken from the start. It only shows that Toyota owners are, on the whole, more likely to view their cars as bedrocks of reliability, regardless of reality. Which speaks more to our capacity for post-purchase rationalization than anything else.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Okaaay... so Honda may have a rate of one lemon for 2.7M cars (or two for every 3.2M if you roll in the Acura numbers) but they only sell 1.6M cars a year. So, like, they made approximately one crappy car per year? Or, with annual US sales in the ~50k range, Porsche apparently makes one lemon every two years. How do mechanics stay in business?

That's basically impossible to reconcile with stats like: An estimated 150,000 cars each year (or 1% of new cars) are lemons...

Using consumer reporting to define "lemon" is pretty much broken from the start. It only shows that Toyota owners are, on the whole, more likely to view their cars as bedrocks of reliability, regardless of reality. Which speaks more to our capacity for post-purchase rationalization than anything else.

Nonsense. You can't make a statement like that and honestly expect anyone to believe it can you?

 

[BurnItDwn]

Interesting link .... their methodology is weird & confusing.

Also, it doesn't show teh model names, so it's kinda useless.

The first annual Lemon List is comprised of all legitimate complaints of a lemon for vehicles in North America from the 2010 model year and newer. Complaints included on the Lemon List are only those made between January 1, 2015 and December 31, 2015.

Reported instances of lemons per brand are then normalized using the total production for that brand within the timeline of the survey. Automaker sales total data is provided by GoodCarBadCar.net. 23 out of 43 brands monitored appear on the list and brands with zero reported lemons are not included on the list.

“By normalizing the data based on overall vehicle production statistics, we believe we’re giving more reliable statistics,” says Colum Wood, VP of Content at Verticlascope Inc. “This formula helps to give some real-world relevance to the numbers and makes sure that higher volume brands, which are statistically more likely to have more reported lemons, aren’t penalized. Less critical are the actual numbers, and more important is the ranking.”

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Nonsense. You can't make a statement like that and honestly expect anyone to believe it can you?

It's no less true than the assertion that only one in 11+ million Toyotas is a "lemon."

 

[Pulsar]

Guys... did you read the article to see how they collected their so-called data? Here's the key paragraph:

For the sake of clarity, this study is intended to be a report of consumer sentiment, rather than an outright list of actual lemons. The information gathered is provided by users in conversations with other members across the AutoGuide Group’s 500-plus forums. Using proprietary software designed to hone in on keywords and sentiment, the data is collected and then further sorted to determine legitimate complaints.

So to be really clear - lemon laws differ by state, and we're taking data from 100% anonymous people with no proof they actually owned a vehicle and scraping forums with "proprietary software" to get this data? Holy worthless article. I've never used this term in my life, but if it ever applies it's here.

FAKE NEWS.

 

[JCH13]

Guys... did you read the article to see how they collected their so-called data? Here's the key paragraph:

For the sake of clarity, this study is intended to be a report of consumer sentiment, rather than an outright list of actual lemons. The information gathered is provided by users in conversations with other members across the AutoGuide Group’s 500-plus forums. Using proprietary software designed to hone in on keywords and sentiment, the data is collected and then further sorted to determine legitimate complaints.

So to be really clear - lemon laws differ by state, and we're taking data from 100% anonymous people with no proof they actually owned a vehicle and scraping forums with "proprietary software" to get this data? Holy worthless article. I've never used this term in my life, but if it ever applies it's here.

FAKE NEWS.

To be fair, they didn't hide this at the bottom of the article, but rather it is the second paragraph in the whole article.

I can't find any officially reported numbers of lemons, so I view this article as an interesting and creative way to collect data that is not readily available by conventional means. You are of course entitled to be grumpy about it, however the writers are upfront and honest about their evaluation methods. They trust that the readers will be grownups and draw their own conclusions.

 

[bigi]

Mercedes? Yes, okay. Gud study.

 

[AdamK47]

Guys... did you read the article to see how they collected their so-called data? Here's the key paragraph:

For the sake of clarity, this study is intended to be a report of consumer sentiment, rather than an outright list of actual lemons. The information gathered is provided by users in conversations with other members across the AutoGuide Group’s 500-plus forums. Using proprietary software designed to hone in on keywords and sentiment, the data is collected and then further sorted to determine legitimate complaints.

So to be really clear - lemon laws differ by state, and we're taking data from 100% anonymous people with no proof they actually owned a vehicle and scraping forums with "proprietary software" to get this data? Holy worthless article. I've never used this term in my life, but if it ever applies it's here.

FAKE NEWS.

That's just terrible.

I'm sure they got their clicks though.

 

[JCH13]

Mercedes? Yes, okay. Gud study.

LTQI Puts MB near the top:

Maintenance and repair is a whole other type of measure... which MB sucks pretty hard at.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

LTQI Puts MB near the top:

Maintenance and repair is a whole other type of measure... which MB sucks pretty hard at.

Does Pontiac (and friends) have lower 10-year repair costs because parts are cheaper, or because nobody bothers repairing a 10-year-old Pontiac? *zing*

 

[bradly1101]

Okaaay... so Honda may have a rate of one lemon for 2.7M cars (or two for every 3.2M if you roll in the Acura numbers) but they only sell 1.6M cars a year. So, like, they made approximately one crappy car per year? Or, with annual US sales in the ~50k range, Porsche apparently makes one lemon every two years. How do mechanics stay in business?

As stated, the stats. go back to the 2010 model year. So six years times 1.6M Hondas...

That's basically impossible to reconcile with stats like: An estimated 150,000 cars each year (or 1% of new cars) are lemons...

So a site representing lawyers has a better handle on accuracy, despite giving no reference, than direct consumer info.?

Using consumer reporting to define "lemon" is pretty much broken from the start. It only shows that Toyota owners are, on the whole, more likely to view their cars as bedrocks of reliability, regardless of reality. Which speaks more to our capacity for post-purchase rationalization than anything else.

What about pre-purchase tunnel vision? Do you truly doubt after seeing those numbers and these that Toyotas are falsely accused of being reliable and virtually lemon free? I highly recommend viewing the trouble forums for different manufacturers and comparing. That's what I combined with other research before purchase of a new van. Autoguide, Edmund's... Pacifica owners are going nuts!

 

[bradly1101]

Guys... did you read the article to see how they collected their so-called data? Here's the key paragraph:

For the sake of clarity, this study is intended to be a report of consumer sentiment, rather than an outright list of actual lemons. The information gathered is provided by users in conversations with other members across the AutoGuide Group’s 500-plus forums. Using proprietary software designed to hone in on keywords and sentiment, the data is collected and then further sorted to determine legitimate complaints.

So to be really clear - lemon laws differ by state, and we're taking data from 100% anonymous people with no proof they actually owned a vehicle and scraping forums with "proprietary software" to get this data? Holy worthless article. I've never used this term in my life, but if it ever applies it's here.

FAKE NEWS.

What would be the motivation to lie about what car someone owns? They get very specific about their issues/resolutions in those forums and many, many threads contain the words, "That happened to mine too. We were on the expressway, and..." Do you think the same methodology couldn't find out how many conservatives there are at AT vs. liberals. Too much lying about true feelings?

This isn't about insulting owners, and of course many people don't like data of any kind that contradicts their feelings and choices.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

So you work for autoguide?

 

[bradly1101]

The strangest thing to me is that in this forum it seems like many wouldn't be caught dead in a Toyota, throwing insults when I have mentioned my rides and that I've only needed four cars in all my 55 years (all Toyotas) with words like, "You drive appliances." Why the Toyota hate?

 

[bradly1101]

So you work for autoguide?

. I wish.

 

[Pulsar]

I don't really care what anyone drives, even though I work for Ford. Different strokes for different fokes. But that article is horribly unscientific.

 

[PricklyPete]

The strangest thing to me is that in this forum it seems like many wouldn't be caught dead in a Toyota, throwing insults when I have mentioned my rides and that I've only needed four cars in all my 55 years (all Toyotas) with words like, "You drive appliances." Why the Toyota hate?

Not sure I’ve ever picked up on the “hate” you are referring to. “You drive an appliance” is pretty descriptive of what owning a Toyota is like. I have owned four in my 39 years (Corolla, Camry, Tacoma, 4Runner). I’ve also owned Mazda’s, Honda’s, BMW’s, Audi’s, and even a GMC. Between that and driving countless other brands/models...Toyota’s very much feel like an appliance. Not necessarily a ding. There is a certain utilitarian appeal to a very functional, sturdy, mature vehicle. It often translates very well into their truck/SUV’s.

Lexus has made some strides in making their cars more emotive (IS, GS, LC500, LCA, etc). Toyota also seems to be making some efforts in the FT86, and latest Camry offering (but dear god, that is a face that only a mother could love).

 

[shortylickens]

Suzuki is no surprise. They make good bikes and horrible cars. Always have.
Mitsubishi is definitely a surprise. For the longest time they were at the bottom of the list alongside Suzuki for the same reason.

 

[AdamK47]

What would be the motivation to lie about what car someone owns? They get very specific about their issues/resolutions in those forums and many, many threads contain the words, "That happened to mine too. We were on the expressway, and..." Do you think the same methodology couldn't find out how many conservatives there are at AT vs. liberals. Too much lying about true feelings?

This isn't about insulting owners, and of course many people don't like data of any kind that contradicts their feelings and choices.

There are people who like data of any kind that conforms to their feelings and choices. It's called confirmation bias.

 

[bradly1101]

Not sure I’ve ever picked up on the “hate” you are referring to. “You drive an appliance” is pretty descriptive of what owning a Toyota is like. I have owned four in my 39 years (Corolla, Camry, Tacoma, 4Runner). I’ve also owned Mazda’s, Honda’s, BMW’s, Audi’s, and even a GMC. Between that and driving countless other brands/models...Toyota’s very much feel like an appliance. Not necessarily a ding. There is a certain utilitarian appeal to a very functional, sturdy, mature vehicle. It often translates very well into their truck/SUV’s.

Lexus has made some strides in making their cars more emotive (IS, GS, LC500, LCA, etc). Toyota also seems to be making some efforts in the FT86, and latest Camry offering (but dear god, that is a face that only a mother could love).

From my experience in a modern Toyota offering, besides functional, sturdy, and mature, I would add smooth, quiet, composed, and to me luxurious. I knew I wanted the base model van since it didn't have those pesky power sliding doors that even Toyota has had issues with along with the other mfrs., yet it's filled with creature comforts. I payed about $20K less than what others seem to be paying by not wanting leather, power doors, giant wheels (why do people want such huge wheels other than they make a car look like a Hot Wheels car and usually worsen the ride?) or sunroofs; it has all the rest of the stuff. $20K! I like driving less than striking automobiles, but I'm an understated kind of guy, and there's less chance of them being stolen . Bragging rights seem silly to me when plunking down so much money.

 

[bradly1101]

There are people who like data of any kind that conforms to their feelings and choices. It's called confirmation bias.

And many, who like me, have used that data as their main source of car buying decision making for decades. The data can strangely precede the choice.

 

[XavierMace]

From my experience in a modern Toyota offering, besides functional, sturdy, and mature, I would add smooth, quiet, composed, and to me luxurious. I knew I wanted the base model van since it didn't have those pesky power sliding doors that even Toyota has had issues with along with the other mfrs., yet it's filled with creature comforts. I payed about $20K less than what others seem to be paying by not wanting leather, power doors, giant wheels (why do people want such huge wheels other than they make a car look like a Hot Wheels car and usually worsen the ride?) or sunroofs; it has all the rest of the stuff. $20K! I like driving less than striking automobiles, but I'm an understated kind of guy, and there's less chance of them being stolen . Bragging rights seem silly to me when plunking down so much money.

Hence an appliance. You're looking for something that does a job and a Toyota does that. It's not a criticism. Lexus makes some of the nicest cars on the planet. They are also generally just about the most boring. If boring doesn't bother you, they're fantastic vehicles.

 

[mindless1]

Generally speaking, a more desirable vehicle, for whatever the reason, is going to need more attention.

Nobody wants a real lemon (which that site grossly abused as a term) but only anally retentive people want to sacrifice what they really want in a vehicle to just buy whatever is tops on some list.

Maybe that person is incredibly inept at dealing with life, and can't handle any problems so the top of their priority list is faults no matter how much they have to concede to get there (Reader's Digest old farts, this is directed at you, but I can understand electrical BS being an unfair metric), but there's also a younger generation of lazy slackers who wouldn't dare get their fingernails dirty and are cursing makes and models when the real problem is the dealership repair rates.

If you pay $2000 more for a "type" of vehicle and higher reliability saves you a $2000 repair bill at a dealership 10 years later, maybe you broke even. If you paid $2000 less for a vehicle and you later DIY repaired it for $200, not so much.

There are clear vehicle design defects in many makes and models. Try to avoid those.

 

[bradly1101]

Nobody wants a real lemon (which that site grossly abused as a term) but only anally retentive people want to sacrifice what they really want in a vehicle to just buy whatever is tops on some list.

Even though the article starts with this?"

"Colloquially known as “lemons,” these are vehicles with serious reliability concerns, either relating to one major issue, or a longer list of less severe problems.

For the sake of clarity, this study is intended to be a report of consumer sentiment, rather than an outright list of actual lemons...."