The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[soulcougher73]

You must be kidding. Every prominent atheist I know avers this fact. Life (on a cosmic scale) is utterly pointless. If you think there is a point or meaning I surely would like to hear it. Without religion and false hope, how could there be a point?

Why does there have to be a point to everything? Just accept were here and enjoy your time on earth with you fellow humans and try to leave it a better place than you found it.

 

[realibrad]

You must be kidding. Every prominent atheist I know avers this fact. Life (on a cosmic scale) is utterly pointless. If you think there is a point or meaning I surely would like to hear it. Without religion and false hope, how could there be a point?

Self awareness and intelligence is a curse. It was an abomination thrust upon us through evolution. No species on earth experiences anything approaching the suffering that man experiences.


http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-human-existence-pointless

Intelligence is not a curse. Intelligence is what gives us the ability to enjoy things other creatures cannot. I know you said you peaked in college, so ask yourself this, has any fish ever enjoyed life as much as you did during that time?

The creation of life had no point, but that does not mean it is still pointless. We have, by our very existence, made life meaningful. Many will suffer, but many will not.

 

[bshole]

Intelligence is not a curse. Intelligence is what gives us the ability to enjoy things other creatures cannot. I know you said you peaked in college, so ask yourself this, has any fish ever enjoyed life as much as you did during that time?

The creation of life had no point, but that does not mean it is still pointless. We have, by our very existence, made life meaningful. Many will suffer, but many will not.

Meaningful in what way? Through evolution, man has developed an innate emotional need for meaning and purpose. For whatever reason, this need enabled man to survive. Interestingly enough, at the same time that man evolved the NEED for meaning and purpose (setting him apart from ALL other animals) he also developed the intelligence to prove that there is no ultimate meaning to existence or humanity.

I have to laugh at anti-theists who don't seem to understand why creationists and religionists don't adopt evolution/agnosticim in the face of overwhelming evidence. Do anti-theists not know themselves or history? Do they not recognize their own innate need for meaning? When asking a theist to give up their religion, you are asking them to accept that their life is completely meaningless and useless. Every person on the planet would accept evolution if it didn't require them to give up all hope. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to do such a thing and runs counter to all of humanity's evolutionary hard-wired emotional NEED for meaning. If science ever finds a way to nuke this portion of the brain, I will be the first to sign up for the procedure.

 

[realibrad]

Meaningful in what way? Through evolution, man has developed an innate emotional need for meaning and purpose. For whatever reason, this need enabled man to survive. Interestingly enough, at the same time that man evolved the NEED for meaning and purpose (setting him apart from ALL other animals) he also developed the intelligence to prove that there is no ultimate meaning to existence or humanity.

I have to laugh at anti-theists who don't seem to understand why creationists and religionists don't adopt evolution/agnosticim in the face of overwhelming evidence. Do anti-theists not know themselves or history? Do they not recognize their own innate need for meaning? When asking a theist to give up their religion, you are asking them to accept that their life is completely meaningless and useless. Every person on the planet would accept evolution if it didn't require them to give up all hope. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to do such a thing and runs to counter to all of humanity's evolutionary hard-wired emotional NEED for meaning. If science ever finds a way to nuke this portion of the brain, I will be the first to sign up for the procedure.

You are looking at this wrong. Is there a compulsion? Sure seems like it. Does life not have value if there is no god? No.

Feelings come from my brain. They do not jiggle the strings of the universe of happy vibes, but I still feel. Does my feelings shape physical reality? No. But, I am here now, so why not enjoy myself. My enjoyment can make others enjoy things too, but all of that is just chemicals firing off in my brain. But, my perception as a human is to understand those interactions in my brain as something good.

Meaning is subjective so no argument there. There is not some overarching meaning to the universe, just the meaning I give through my actions and feelings.

 

[bshole]

Meaning is subjective so no argument there. There is not some overarching meaning to the universe, just the meaning I give through my actions and feelings.

And that is the rub, I am physically incapable of happiness knowing that I will cease to exist and that my life ultimately is meaningless. That shows the breadth of the "need for meaning" gene. The need apparently has a rather wide range in human populations as your need is SIGNIFICANTLY less than mine. What satisfies you does absolutely nothing for me. While I accept your world view, it has made me miserable and unhappy.

If you can delude yourself into finding meaning and happiness in the face of the evidence, more power to you.

Why do you hold blind unreasoning faith against religionists when their delusions enable them to be happy? What is accomplished by removing false hope other than misery and despair?

 

[WHAMPOM]

I can never accept the concept of a God that has always existed and I will never accept the concept of matter/energy as always existing. It just doesn't compute for me. All the senses that I have, all the input I have ever received indicates that everything has a beginning. My mind can not deal with the concept of something always existing without beginning or end. Scientists talk about events happening 20 billion years ago or so. That is nothing. What happened 100 googleplus years ago? In the face of infinity, billions of years are less than seconds. It freaks me out thinking about eternal existence without a beginning. The only thing weirder and less acceptable would be an actual beginning to everything. That makes even less sense.

All the senses that you have, all the input you receive does not cover 1% of the total that what is out there. Strange this material Universe has a definite beginning and an end due to time keeping everything from happening at once, not the "Turtles standing on turtles all the way down", man!

 

[bshole]

All the senses that you have, all the input you receive does not cover 1% of the total that what is out there. Strange this material Universe has a definite beginning and an end due to time keeping everything from happening at once, not the "Turtles standing on turtles all the way down", man!

Meh.... the concepts of infinite existence and absolute nothingness (as opposed to empty space which is something) are simply beyond my understanding. They do not compute for me. If they make sense to you, that is great.

 

[realibrad]

And that is the rub, I am physically incapable of happiness knowing that I will cease to exist and that my life ultimately is meaningless. That shows the breadth of the "need for meaning" gene. The need apparently has a rather wide range in human populations as your need is SIGNIFICANTLY less than mine. What satisfies you does absolutely nothing for me. While I accept your world view, it has made me miserable and unhappy.

If you can delude yourself into finding meaning and happiness in the face of the evidence, more power to you.

Why do you hold blind unreasoning faith against religionists when their delusions enable them to be happy? What is accomplished by removing false hope other than misery and despair?

I doubt you cannot enjoying anything. I know you have a son. Does he not make you happy in some way? I guess he could be a little shit, but if I remember right you like him no?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Meaningful in what way?

Meaningful in every way.

Through evolution, man has developed an innate emotional need for meaning and purpose.

I don't really agree. Meaning and purpose are core facets of consciousness. We didn't develop a need for them. They're actually quite inescapable. They're so ubiquitous that people like yourself are often blind to them.

For whatever reason, this need enabled man to survive. Interestingly enough, at the same time that man evolved the NEED for meaning and purpose (setting him apart from ALL other animals) he also developed the intelligence to prove that there is no ultimate meaning to existence or humanity.

I also do not agree that the feelings of meaning and purpose are unique to humans.

I have to laugh at anti-theists who don't seem to understand why creationists and religionists don't adopt evolution/agnosticim in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Who would those "anti-theists" be?

Do anti-theists not know themselves or history? Do they not recognize their own innate need for meaning? When asking a theist to give up their religion, you are asking them to accept that their life is completely meaningless and useless.

Absolutely fucking false, and I'm not gonna be very nice about this any more. It's total bullshit, not to mention a slap in the face to the legions of Christians and other theists that go right on believing and practicing their religion while accepting evolution. Wake the fuck up.

Every person on the planet would accept evolution if it didn't require them to give up all hope.

It does absolutely nothing of the sort. Stop perpetuating this vicious falsehood.

It takes a tremendous amount of courage to do such a thing and runs counter to all of humanity's evolutionary hard-wired emotional NEED for meaning. If science ever finds a way to nuke this portion of the brain, I will be the first to sign up for the procedure.

You need to calm down and think about things a bit more thoroughly.

 

[Moonbeam]

What satisfies you does absolutely nothing for me. While I accept your world view, it has made me miserable and unhappy.

Exactly! These folk are, I think, distressed by your misery and want you to feel better, but they don't understand. They do not know what it is to suffer the loss of the Divine Beloved. They imagine that joy can be turned on by sone logical switch, that words can mend a broken heart. It doesn't work that way. Hopeless is exactly that, a state of hopelessness from which the mind cannot escape. I believe, I would say that I know, there is an exit from this that is hidden by the act of looking. It can be uncovered by an analysis of assumptions.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Exactly! These folk are, I think, distressed by your misery and want you to feel better, but they don't understand. They do not know what it is to suffer the loss of the Divine Beloved. They imagine that joy can be turned on by sone logical switch, that words can mend a broken heart. It doesn't work that way. Hopeless is exactly that, a state of hopelessness from which the mind cannot escape. I believe, I would say that I know, there is an exit from this that is hidden by the act of looking. It can be uncovered by an analysis of assumptions.

I'm curious...what are these assumptions that need to be analyzed?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

And that is the rub, I am physically incapable of happiness knowing that I will cease to exist and that my life ultimately is meaningless.

But you DON'T know that.

If you can delude yourself into finding meaning and happiness in the face of the evidence, more power to you.

WHAT EVIDENCE???

Why do you hold blind unreasoning faith against religionists when their delusions enable them to be happy?

Because that happiness frequently comes at the expense of the happiness of other people.

What is accomplished by removing false hope other than misery and despair?

Oh fuck off, you pathetic ninny. Grow up.

 

[soulcougher73]

Meaningful in what way? Through evolution, man has developed an innate emotional need for meaning and purpose. For whatever reason, this need enabled man to survive. Interestingly enough, at the same time that man evolved the NEED for meaning and purpose (setting him apart from ALL other animals) he also developed the intelligence to prove that there is no ultimate meaning to existence or humanity.

I have to laugh at anti-theists who don't seem to understand why creationists and religionists don't adopt evolution/agnosticim in the face of overwhelming evidence. Do anti-theists not know themselves or history? Do they not recognize their own innate need for meaning? When asking a theist to give up their religion, you are asking them to accept that their life is completely meaningless and useless. Every person on the planet would accept evolution if it didn't require them to give up all hope. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to do such a thing and runs counter to all of humanity's evolutionary hard-wired emotional NEED for meaning. If science ever finds a way to nuke this portion of the brain, I will be the first to sign up for the procedure.

If this were true dont you think everyone in the whole world would be a theist of some sort? The fact there are atheists kinda puts a hole in your idea.

 

[WelshBloke]

And that is the rub, I am physically incapable of happiness knowing that I will cease to exist and that my life ultimately is meaningless....

Alert! Mid life crisis detected in aisle 3.

Suspected realisation of own mortality has arrived.

Ennui reaching critical levels!

Solution: Hookers and blow.

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm curious...what are these assumptions that need to be analyzed?

Hehehehe, perhaps we can get bshole to help us with that. He seems to have quite a set of opinions as to the cause of his misery. But perhaps, though, he prefers to be unhappy rather than look at them. If that seems the likely case I will speak to the wall later on so the door might register something. You are so very kind.

 

[realibrad]

Hehehehe, perhaps we can get bshole to help us with that. He seems to have quite a set of opinions as to the cause of his misery. But perhaps, though, he prefers to be unhappy rather than look at them. If that seems the likely case I will speak to the wall later on so the door might register something. You are so very kind.

But he asked you?

 

[BxgJ]

In the realm of philosophy, science has had its greatest contribution. It has proven beyond all doubt, it has demonstrated as FACT that the entirety of human existence is absolutely pointless and with no meaning whatsoever. Fifty billion years from now, not the slightest remnant of this universe will exist.

Science has proven as fact that in the long run science is pointless. The only standard that matters is human happiness. The society that has the highest percentage of individuals that die happy is the best. I grew up as a missionary kid. By FAR the happiest civilizations I have ever witnessed are the stone age hunter-gatherer tribes living in the Amazon forests. Those ignorant savages were FAR FAR FAR happier than Americans.

Science gives us much but it also takes much. It removes all purpose for existence and eliminates false hope. I was a happier person when I had false hope. When I lost my religion I also lost any chance of happiness. I wish I had died in my ignorance. I now have only to wait for my purposeless existence to end with fear and depression as my constant companions.

Where in the hell did you get that number?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe

 

[shira]

If this were true dont you think everyone in the whole world would be a theist of some sort? The fact there are atheists kinda puts a hole in your idea.

Bshole didn't say that no one is capable of "adopting evolution/agnosticim;" only that "it takes a tremendous amount of courage."

But I totally disagree that it takes any courage at all, for the simple reason that it's utter nonsense that someone's "adopting evolution/agnosticim" is tantamount to "accepting that their life is completely meaningless."

Since when are a belief in God and the afterlife necessary for perceiving life as having meaning? Meaningfulness is just like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. So if I tell everyone that I - an atheist - see my own life as having plenty of meaning, where do true-believers get off in telling me that I'm wrong about how I see my own life?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

If this were true dont you think everyone in the whole world would be a theist of some sort? The fact there are atheists kinda puts a hole in your idea.

The majority of the world population are theists of some sort. Only 2% to 11% of the world's population self-identify as atheist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

 

[MajinCry]

This discussion is still going on? Bloody hell lads. Go on a binge of Christopher Hitchens; he has long since dealt with these ruddy arguments fo' theism.

And to touch on the whole "Without Yahweh, life is meaningless" nonsense:

It's the opposite; with Yahweh, life is meaningless. If Yahweh were to exist, according to the Bible, we're all just pawns in his cosmic plan; we're no more than just biological machines with the illusion of existence and free will, whilst we are operated by Yahweh.

And it's the theists that believe this life, the only one we got, is just a farce; the real fun starts once they die and ascend to heaven for all of eternity.

When it comes to the meaning of life, it's what you make of it. Do you rescue sex slaves of Mauritania? Then that's the meaning of your life; freeing captives. Do you construct social and economical foundations to ensure the livelihood of the coming generation? Then that's the meaning of your life; attempting to make a better society. Etc.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

What if I wank it to Baywatch re-runs with my hands covered in the cheesy dust of my favorite flavor of Doritos?

 

[brianmanahan]

this thread is a gift from god

 

[Moonbeam]

But he asked you?

He posted this in #315:

I don't know the answer for you specifically...but in my case it took me to the brink of death where I had nothing left to lose...hopefully it will go easier for you. Surrender is not a choice arrived at by rational, considered evaluation of risk, it's about the very essence of your being not caring about the "risk" anymore, it's about coming to a point in one's life where there is nowhere else to turn except towards this inexplicable God who reaches out towards you every day of your life...the risk no longer matters...the cost no longer matters. Surrender is probably the hardest thing a human being can do. All I can advise is to seek truth at all costs and pick the paradigm that suits you best...it's a 'come as you are' party...it's not about being something you aren't. In my opinion, those who genuinely seek truth often find it. However, the cost is losing this "self" in order to find a much better self (but still imperfect in most every possible way)....connected to God, without that empty place inside that haunts those without. A paradox for sure, but there it is.

He knows the answer.

 

[shira]

He posted this in #315:

I don't know the answer for you specifically...but in my case it took me to the brink of death where I had nothing left to lose...hopefully it will go easier for you. Surrender is not a choice arrived at by rational, considered evaluation of risk, it's about the very essence of your being not caring about the "risk" anymore, it's about coming to a point in one's life where there is nowhere else to turn except towards this inexplicable God who reaches out towards you every day of your life...the risk no longer matters...the cost no longer matters. Surrender is probably the hardest thing a human being can do. All I can advise is to seek truth at all costs and pick the paradigm that suits you best...it's a 'come as you are' party...it's not about being something you aren't. In my opinion, those who genuinely seek truth often find it. However, the cost is losing this "self" in order to find a much better self (but still imperfect in most every possible way)....connected to God, without that empty place inside that haunts those without. A paradox for sure, but there it is.

He knows the answer.

So "answer" means hitting bottom so hard that believing in magic is the only strategy that one's mind can imagine to cope with reality?

Sounds special.

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm curious...what are these assumptions that need to be analyzed?

So "answer" means hitting bottom so hard that believing in magic is the only strategy that one's mind can imagine to cope with reality?

Sounds special.

New organs of perception develop from need so I do recommend increasing your need. You don't properly understand need, however. You do not seek to bottom out as if it were some noble goal. That comes to some of us via unfortunate circumstances, naturally. For normal adjusted folk like yourself, much will depend on your sensitivity, for lack of a better word. I think of it sort of like a spiritual sleep. I suggest you were born in a perfect state of unity, an unconscious state of self love that for some is a Siren call. Curiosity can work too.

PS: Increasing ones need can be a matter only of discovering how much need you have that you were formerly unconscious of. Some sort of crisis may bring this about.