The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[soulcougher73]

My bad and you're right.

Thank you.

I think whether or not God is "nice" shouldn't really matter, but when engaging atheists on this topic, they only quote passages and say "how can you believe in a God that does X"?

My normal reaction would be "how does that bear on his existence anyway"?

So really, emotion drives THEM as well and their lack of belief.

How many times have you heard: " I read the Bible and stopped believing in God"?

I hear that a LOT.

Ok lets pretend for a moment that the christian god is real. We have proof, talked to him etc. But also lets say hes a total dick. Would you still worship him? Obviously we believe he is real, but outside of that if he doesnt command respect..whats the point of worshiping him?

 

[Retro Rob]

But also lets say hes a total dick. Would you still worship him? Obviously we believe he is real, but outside of that if he doesnt command respect..whats the point of worshiping him?

I don't believe he's a "total d*ck" anyway.

You don't have to respect anything, or anybody if you feel it hasn't been deserved.

 

[soulcougher73]

I said that we can prove that they actually exist, you haven't even made it that far.

LOL They are so silly.

 

[soulcougher73]

I don't believe he's a "total d*ck" anyway.

You don't have to respect anything, or anybody if you feel it hasn't been deserved.

That's not what i asked. I said lets pretend for the sake of arguement he is a total dick. Would you worship him just because he created all this? I wouldnt. Id be like "That's nice and all that you created all this, but youre an ass not worth a minute of my time"

 

[JD50]

The shortened version of most of the thread:

--No proof can ever be devised to prove or disprove the existence of God.
--No proof can ever show how someone truly feels.
--Science and logic are not equipped to deal with faith, since it comes from within.

The rest of the thread is dealing with the enormity of how much of the space of human existence is NOT covered by science and logic, and has now boiled down to how one could surrender themselves to faith in a higher being, with a few "what if I'm wrong" thrown into the mix.

As for me....I need no proof, I need no reward. I allowed God into my life, and the subsequent changes to my life were, awe inspiring.

M

Ok, but point 2 has nothing to do with points 1 or 3. You can't prove how someone actually feels, but you can look at their actions and words and get a good idea. You don't have "faith" that your spouse loves you the same way that you have "faith" that a God exists. My spouse is a real person and I believe that she loves me due to her actions.

Faith is belief without evidence. Do you let faith guide any other part of your life? It's simply not rational. If you assert that God is real, you have to actually provide some evidence. If you can't even provide evidence for the existence of God, how do you know that he had anything to do with the changes in your life?

 

[Retro Rob]

That's not what i asked. I said lets pretend for the sake of arguement he is a total dick. Would you worship him just because he created all this? I wouldnt. Id be like "That's nice and all that you created all this, but youre an ass not worth a minute of my time"

Yes I would, and I'll tell you why.

I view God as a parent. Regardless if I think my parents are jerks, while we don't worship parents, we always show them respect.

This is how I feel about God.

 

[shira]

I got stuck on A. Why is A true? I think A is false.

In other words, you don't think that that the statement "all sorts of contradictory things are true" is correct, given the assumption that God exists?

I offer the following as a few of the "contradictory things:"

• God created the entire universe, including us, exactly as we are - warts and all. He created that person to be extremely smart, with a highly scientific mind; the sort of person who demands verifiable, physical evidence for everything. The sort of person who can NEVER accept the existence of God (or Jesus, or any Prophet) on faith. The sort of person who, based on Christian precepts, is doomed to eternal damnation. In other words, God created a person who (God knew) could not help but be doomed to eternal damnation. Why would a "loving God" do such a thing? It would be absurd. It's a huge contradiction.
• God is the creator of morality, and God inspired the writing of His holy books. But the books disseminate "moral" behavior which is clearly evil: Slavery, butchery of non-believers, intolerance of behavior stemming from the "free will" that God created in us. It's a huge contradiction.
• A loving God allowing innocents to suffer.
• Free will combined with God's omniscience.
• God's being eternal.
• God's insistence on faith in his existence when He could EASILY perform undeniable miracles in prime time on a regular basis (not the "I heard, that he saw, that a blind man regained sight in that backwater place," with no hard medical evidence that the man was certifiably blind in the first place).
• God's insistence that we love Him. Why on earth would an omnipotent, omniscient super-being demand love from His created puppets? Why on earth does such an entity NEED love? And isn't "need" the very antithesis of omnipotence?

 

[JD50]

Yes I would, and I'll tell you why.

I view God as a parent. Regardless if I think my parents are jerks, while we don't worship parents, we always show them respect.

This is how I feel about God.

No, people don't always respect their parents. I wouldn't respect my father if he was a serial killer, for example. If my father abused me and threatened me with eternal damnation all throughout my childhood I certainly wouldn't respect him.

 

[Retro Rob]

No, people don't always respect their parents. I wouldn't respect my father if he was a serial killer, for example. If my father abused me and threatened me with eternal damnation all throughout my childhood I certainly wouldn't respect him.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.

That's what makes these sort of discussions ultimately, circular and pointless.

 

[JD50]

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.

That's what makes these sort of discussions ultimately, circular and pointless.

No, that's not an opinion. "We always show them respect" is flat out wrong. Maybe you would, but most people would not respect their father if he was a serial killer that abused them throughout their entire life.

 

[Retro Rob]

No, that's not an opinion. "We always show them respect" is flat out wrong. Maybe you would, but most people would not respect their father if he was a serial killer that abused them throughout their entire life.

That's not what I was referring to as an opinion.

You're clearly saying God is a serial killer and threatens you with damnation, which is your opinion.

What makes it circular is that you're gonna show evidence to support your views, and I will do the same, which will circle back to our original position.

 

[soulcougher73]

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.

That's what makes these sort of discussions ultimately, circular and pointless.

Did you miss this thread Rob? Youre not entitled to your opinion
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2450555

Sorry was just reading that one when you made your comment so had to follow up with it

 

[JD50]

That's not what I was referring to as an opinion.

You're clearly saying God is a serial killer and threatens you with damnation, which is your opinion.

What makes it circular is that you're gonna show evidence to support your views, and I will do the same, which will circle back to our original position.

You are deviating from the context of the conversation. Soulcougher said "lets pretend for the sake of arguement he is a total dick. Would you worship him just because he created all this?" And you said that yes you would respect him because you look at him like a parent and "we always respect our parents."

No, we don't always respect our parents, and I gave you several examples of why someone might not respect their parents.

 

[bshole]

You're clearly saying God is a serial killer and threatens you with damnation, which is your opinion.

God is a serial killer by definition. Every single life he has created on earth, he has also taken. As he is the only entity in the universe capable of creating or taking life, ultimately he is responsible for every single death.

 

[Retro Rob]

You are deviating from the context of the conversation. Soulcougher said "lets pretend for the sake of arguement he is a total dick. Would you worship him just because he created all this?" And you said that yes you would respect him because you look at him like a parent and "we always respect our parents."

No, we don't always respect our parents, and I gave you several examples of why someone might not respect their parents.

OK we don't always respect our parents, but I will always respect God.

It was a hypothetical question anyway...don't get your panties in a twist.

 

[JD50]

OK we don't always respect our parents, but I will always respect God.

It was a hypothetical question anyway...don't get your panties in a twist.

Uhh... I was just responding to your post...

You said that you would always worship him because you view him as a parent and we always respect our parents. Except we don't. So why would you still worship/respect him even if he turns out to be an asshole?

 

[Moonbeam]

In other words, you don't think that that the statement "all sorts of contradictory things are true" is correct, given the assumption that God exists?

I offer the following as a few of the "contradictory things:".............

[/LIST]

Bless you, shira. Unlike railibrad, you understand easily and exactly the intent of the words I say. All those contradictions you listed and others have only to do

[*]God created the entire universe, including us, exactly as we are - warts and all. He created that person to be extremely smart, with a highly scientific mind; the sort of person who demands verifiable, physical evidence for everything. The sort of person who can NEVER accept the existence of God (or Jesus, or any Prophet) on faith. The sort of person who, based on Christian precepts, is doomed to eternal damnation. In other words, God created a person who (God knew) could not help but be doomed to eternal damnation. Why would a "loving God" do such a thing? It would be absurd. It's a huge contradiction.

M: What you call a huge contradiction I call the situation I was in when I surrendered and died in grief. Those are the facts I could not escape as truth.

[*]God is the creator of morality, and God inspired the writing of His holy books. But the books disseminate "moral" behavior which is clearly evil: Slavery, butchery of non-believers, intolerance of behavior stemming from the "free will" that God created in us. It's a huge contradiction.

M: Yup, that's for sure. That's why I don't believe them. Some of that is the result of the religious not understanding their religion and some is due to human evil.

[*]A loving God allowing innocents to suffer.

M: If God's love manifests within you the only suffering He can relieve is the suffering you relieve. The capacity to love will certainly relieve your suffering, however.

[*]Free will combined with God's omniscience.

M: All localized within the God conscious. Words we misuse and don't properly understand.

[*]God's being eternal.

M: As in lasting forever or as in collapsing time. There is only the now in the God conscious state.


[*]God's insistence on faith in his existence when He could EASILY perform undeniable miracles in prime time on a regular basis (not the "I heard, that he saw, that a blind man regained sight in that backwater place," with no hard medical evidence that the man was certifiably blind in the first place).

M: Perhaps parlor tricks to help the thick headed overcome their doubt.

[*]God's insistence that we love Him. Why on earth would an omnipotent, omniscient super-being demand love from His created puppets? Why on earth does such an entity NEED love? And isn't "need" the very antithesis of omnipotence?with that god you don't believe exists.

M: The facts are there is only love and our lives are a mess when we can't. I would insist that you love if I could, but that's not how things work. The lover disappears in the Beloved and has no need but to love.

In an instant of time due to a shift in my consciousness my life went from utter blackness to joyful. I killed the God you don't believe in and the real God killed me. The source of love is within me. A switch that was on the off position turned on, but it wasn't turned on by me. It turned on because I got out in the middle of the road with my terrible suffering and got run over by Grace. The truth is so utterly and completely simple it's easy to miss.

Ask yourself what is it about man that he invents and seeks gods? Is it really the extravagant hope of the ego for eternal life, or is it because the knowledge that God exists sleeps uneasily within us.

Do you know the story of the princess and the pea.

 

[Retro Rob]

God is a serial killer by definition. Every single life he has created on earth, he has also taken. As he is the only entity in the universe capable of creating or taking life, ultimately he is responsible for every single death.

lol

 

[Victorian Gray]

This begs the question from me:

Why does a god have to be likable for you to begin to believe he/it exists?

It seems to me that most atheists don't really believe in the Christian God, because they don't like him.

Talk about emotional reasons for believing in God...there are plenty who reject God for emotional reasons...

Please tell me that was an attempt at a joke.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Here is my secret,
a very simple secret.
It is only with the heart that one can see rightly.
What is essential is invisible to the eye. -- Le Petite Prince

 

[JEDIYoda]

It seems to me that most atheists don't really believe in the Christian God, because they don't like him.

<--- a lot of truth in that statement!! More fact than even atheist will admit too!!

 

[Moonbeam]

Here is my secret,
a very simple secret.
It is only with the heart that one can see rightly.
What is essential is invisible to the eye. -- Le Petite Prince

Yes the eye of logic. It's all Gods fault said the man standing on his two hands.

 

[Omar F1]

But the question reminds though: if there is no god (i.e. creator), then who on earth created that magnificent, extremely complicated yet limitlessly diversified creation that is called human.


Can we relax, have a clear thought, then think about the inside organs and functions of our own bodies? "As also in your own selves: Will ye not then see?"

 

[realibrad]

But the question reminds though: if there is no god (i.e. creator), then who on earth created that magnificent, extremely complicated yet limitlessly diversified creation that is called human.


Can we relax, have a clear thought, then think about the inside organs and functions of our own bodies? "As also in your own selves: Will ye not then see?"

Evolution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEKyqIJkuDQ

 

[JEDIYoda]

Evolution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEKyqIJkuDQ

hahahahaa no way...rofl...OMG he pulled the evolution card....rofl...hahahaaaa...help me, I am laughing so hard I cannot get up...rofl.,......hahahaaa