The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[realibrad]

Car accidents cannot exist without cars, so we must accept that car manufacturers created car accidents.

Yes, however, I think you are misunderstanding the difference between creating a thing to be used, and the actions that can be done with the thing created.

Car manufactures create cars. They do not inherently force people to do things to cause accidents, but they do make the cars. If nobody made cars, there would not be car accidents.

God created evil aka cars. God does something different here though. Cars do not control you, or make you do anything where as evil does. If you are to accept some of the stories, evil can force itself upon you even if you do not want it. Some can choose to seek it out, but others have no choice. An example would be the children killed in the old T because they were evil. So apparently, you can be born evil.

Anyway, god created a car that can force you to drive it and get into an accident. So the analogy does not really hold up.

 

[MajinCry]

Car accidents cannot exist without cars, so we must accept that car manufacturers created car accidents.

Nope. Not how it works.

If nobody drove cars, even though car manufactures continued to make millions of cars, there would be no car accidents.

That would be like blaming the German language for the holocaust. If Hitler couldn't speak, he couldn't have commanded it

 

[dank69]

"Genocide is evil, because of how bad it is."

Airtight.

I am glad you at least recognize you had to then explain what it is to be bad, even if I think your explanation is highly flawed.

Would it be okay for us to genocide a cannibalistic tribe that was also genociding other tribes?

What is good or evil has to be based on a morality system. That morality system could be based on anything.

 

[realibrad]

Then how would you explain this?

Um, you would likely already know this.

Violent crime is on the way down, and religious believers are also on the way down. I would say that is likely a correlation because the causes for violent crime are far too many to make a claim like what you are implying.

Do you really think those graphs have enough data to be able to make a claim? Also, the trend would fit with what I have said.

 

[Retro Rob]

Um, you would likely already know this.

Violent crime is on the way down, and religious believers are also on the way down. I would say that is likely a correlation because the causes for violent crime are far too many to make a claim like what you are implying.

Do you really think those graphs have enough data to be able to make a claim? Also, the trend would fit with what I have said.

Correlation does not imply causation, for both of your claims, really.

 

[soulcougher73]

Car accidents cannot exist without cars, so we must accept that car manufacturers created car accidents.

Technically true, but not a good analogy.

 

[realibrad]

Correlation does not imply causation, for both of your claims, really.

Yes I know. That was the point of my post.

 

[dank69]

Correlation does not imply causation, for both of your claims, really.

It would be helpful if you could identify who was actually making claims.

You know, if you were interested in having a productive discussion.

 

[dank69]

Yes, however, I think you are misunderstanding the difference between creating a thing to be used, and the actions that can be done with the thing created.

Car manufactures create cars. They do not inherently force people to do things to cause accidents, but they do make the cars. If nobody made cars, there would not be car accidents.

God created evil aka cars. God does something different here though. Cars do not control you, or make you do anything where as evil does. If you are to accept some of the stories, evil can force itself upon you even if you do not want it. Some can choose to seek it out, but others have no choice. An example would be the children killed in the old T because they were evil. So apparently, you can be born evil.

Anyway, god created a car that can force you to drive it and get into an accident. So the analogy does not really hold up.

Awful post, and that is coming from a non-religious person.
Evil isn't created. Evil is an adjective describing something else. Even when used as a noun, it is still in a descriptive manner referring to other ideas.

 

[Retro Rob]

Yes, however, I think you are misunderstanding the difference between creating a thing to be used, and the actions that can be done with the thing created.

Ok - but I'll counter that a brain is also a "think to be used" because we use it make choices, good and bad.

A car, just like intelligence, can be misused.

Either case, the creator/manufacturer cannot be blamed -- I used that analogy to make that clear. So evil, just like car accidents, are products of bad actions, not something inherent.

 

[MagickMan]

Religion is good for people who are of avg to low intelligence, it helps keep them in line via fear of the unknown (if they behave they'll go to heaven). As a social control, it's rather effective.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Um, you would likely already know this.

Violent crime is on the way down, and religious believers are also on the way down. I would say that is likely a correlation because the causes for violent crime are far too many to make a claim like what you are implying.

Do you really think those graphs have enough data to be able to make a claim? Also, the trend would fit with what I have said.

However, the trends prior to 1992 don't fit what you said. Actually, my intent was to show that there is no rational way for one to conclude that secularization leads to better outcomes (as you stated)....unless, of course, one chooses to ignore 30+ years of data prior to 1992.

 

[realibrad]

Awful post, and that is coming from a non-religious person.
Evil isn't created. Evil is an adjective describing something else. Even when used as a noun, it is still in a descriptive manner referring to other ideas.

I dont think evil is created. I said that must be the view of a religious person. The more I see you post, the more stupid you sound.

 

[realibrad]

Ok - but I'll counter that a brain is also a "think to be used" because we use it make choices, good and bad.

A car, just like intelligence, can be misused.

Either case, the creator/manufacturer cannot be blamed -- I used that analogy to make that clear. So evil, just like car accidents, are products of bad actions, not something inherent.

You are wrong, and I already explained this. The bible has stores were people were taken over by evil unwillingly. A car cannot force you to drive it and crash, where as the evil in the bible can take over your body and force you to be evil. Remember the babies killed?

 

[realibrad]

However, the trends prior to 1992 don't fit what you said. Actually, my intent was to show that there is no rational way for one to conclude that secularization leads to better outcomes (as you stated)....unless, of course, one chooses to ignore 30+ years of data prior to 1992.

Secularization can lead to better outcomes and that is rational. If you take away a motivating factor that some people have to do bad things, then you are likely to get better outcomes. Again, you have to go back to the previous point I made about how non belief cannot drive anything to do anything.

If you believe religion can drive people to do good, then you have to accept that it can drive people to do bad. Non belief cannot drive people to do anything good or bad. If some of the bad is caused by religion and you take that away, then you get less of the bad.

 

[Retro Rob]

You are wrong, and I already explained this. The bible has stores were people were taken over by evil unwillingly.

Are you speaking of demon possession? When you say "taken over", you seem to be speaking about a third party.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Secularization can lead to better outcomes and that is rational. If you take away a motivating factor that some people have to do bad things, then you are likely to get better outcomes. Again, you have to go back to the previous point I made about how non belief cannot drive anything to do anything.

If you believe religion can drive people to do good, then you have to accept that it can drive people to do bad. Non belief cannot drive people to do anything good or bad. If some of the bad is caused by religion and you take that away, then you get less of the bad.

Appreciate your perspective, but respectively disagree.

 

[realibrad]

Are you speaking of demon possession? When you say "taken over", you seem to be speaking about a third party.

demon possession would be one type.

Evil drives people to sin. Everyone is born sinful, aka evil.

Evil is not really clear in the bible. However you define it though, the bible seems to be clear people can be born evil.

 

[realibrad]

Appreciate your perspective, but respectively disagree.

lol dont do that. Explain man.

 

[Retro Rob]

demon possession would be one type.

Involuntary demon possession isn't the same as one being born evil. Are you saying that without demon possession, they are otherwise good?

Evil drives people to sin. Everyone is born sinful, aka evil.

Sinful and evil are not the same thing. Good people were sinners (see people like David and Job in the bible).

 

[WHAMPOM]

Cool story bro. Now go find a few examples of happy go-lucky atheists and the atrocities they commit, you should find plenty of examples from the USSR or North Korea. But that's OK because they're not being hypocritical and following the moral code of some deity, right?

You confuse atheism with fanatic fervor of a political nature. Just another Great Leader with followers ready to do the worst in hopes of a pat on the head same as religious belivers in a God. Can you grasp the consept?

 

[realibrad]

Involuntary demon possession isn't the same as one being born evil. Are you saying that without demon possession, they are otherwise good?



Sinful and evil are not the same thing. Good people were sinners (see people like David and Job in the bible).

Again, possession is one of many things.

If you are possessed and you do evil, you become evil too. I dont believe in possession, so I wont go much deeper into it, but I think that is clear enough.

You can be born with evil, and in a sense you are possessed by evil, but it does not have to be a spirit.

How would you define evil?

 

[Moonbeam]

Secularization can lead to better outcomes and that is rational. If you take away a motivating factor that some people have to do bad things, then you are likely to get better outcomes. Again, you have to go back to the previous point I made about how non belief cannot drive anything to do anything.

If you believe religion can drive people to do good, then you have to accept that it can drive people to do bad. Non belief cannot drive people to do anything good or bad. If some of the bad is caused by religion and you take that away, then you get less of the bad.

It was already made clear that you do not necessarily get less but get a different rational for the justification of the evil. Part of the job of religion is to cure people of the motivations that drive evil actions. One could say that evil is the will not to be cured. If religion can't cure that what will?

Your answer to the question as to what evil is was that evil is bad. That's no answer at all. The real question being discussed in this thread, in my opinion, is whether on balance religion creates more evil than it cures.

The notion of good and evil come into existence with language and thought, abstraction, thinking language makes possible. They do not exist. This is what the analogy of the Garden of Eden and our expulsion is all about. In the garden there was no Knowledge, the notion that classifications exist. Evil is an invention of the language of duality. As soon as you have evil as a concept you can apply it to children. Once you do that you cause them to hate themselves. Once they hate themselves they need to deny that pain. That pain is turned outward as evil acts.

The purpose of religion is to present the notion that you are loved even though you are evil so that you will forgive yourself and stop your self hate.

Some make it and some don't.

My opinion is that we might want to introduce psychotherapy into the mix.

Our self hate is deeply hidden and profoundly denied, by the religious and the non-religious.

 

[OverVolt]

So stupid people killed somebody in the name of their ideology? What else is new? But lets attack all religion just in case and act like an unthinking mob.

Yea mobs are so stupid. Lets mob together against religion. Its the only smart thing to do.

 

[OverVolt]

You confuse atheism with fanatic fervor of a political nature. Just another Great Leader with followers ready to do the worst in hopes of a pat on the head same as religious belivers in a God. Can you grasp the consept?

You mean the problem is human nature and not religion, yup we are on the same page then.