The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[Retro Rob]

What makes you think they murdered without a reason? If I know the reason, I would feel better off at avoiding situations vs not knowing anything about the reasoning. People do not act without reason. That reason could be based off of a belief, or a compulsion. Atheism is not part of either of those things. There is no comfort as far as I can tell from an atheist killing someone vs a theist outside of being able to eliminate 1 variable.

When we better understand motivations, we are better able to prepare and or prevent. So when religion is taken out of the equation, it gets us closer to understanding.

I was referring to shira's post saying that atheists at least don't have god to fall back on, as if that makes it somehow makes it different.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

What difference does it make?

Is it more comforting for atheists to admit other atheists murdered for NO reason?

Why is the only alternative to God-reasons no reasons?

 

[Retro Rob]

Why is the only alternative to God-reasons no reasons?

Thanks for pointing that out.

I really meant to say "non-religious reasons".

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Even if they were Mahayana Buddhist reasons?

 

[jackstar7]

I was referring to shira's post saying that atheists at least don't have god to fall back on, as if that makes it somehow makes it different.

You don't think it is different when someone has a political motive vs religious vs psychological? Or are you simply saying that the outcome doesn't change?

Because I think the argument is that motives do matter.

 

[soulcougher73]

The question is a bit flawed though. Did Dahmer do what he did because he also did not believe in Santa? For his justification to be atheism, it would then logically follow that not believing in anything would be justification for those actions. So, not believing in Santa, the Easter Bunny, Tom Brady not being a cheater ect. Anything he did not believe in would seem to then be a justification, and I bet you do not believe that.

So, why would his non-belief in God be a justification any more than his non belief in Santa?

Pfft...brining logic and reasoning into this thread...go away

 

[soulcougher73]

I was referring to shira's post saying that atheists at least don't have god to fall back on, as if that makes it somehow makes it different.

I can make a difference if that persons religious beliefs lead to his motives for killing. Muslims thinking non muslims are infidels that need to be killed etc. Stuff like that. Their religion is justifying their behavior/motive.

If he were not religious he couldnt fall back on a "higher power" commanded me to do so. He would have his very own motives for doing so and would be held accountable to them. Cant hold "god" accountable since we have no idea if one even exists.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Their religion is justifying their behavior/motive.

They are using religion to rationalize their behavior. Crazy people always find a way to rationalize their insanity...religion just happens to be a relatively common excuse.

 

[Retro Rob]

I can make a difference if that persons religious beliefs lead to his motives for killing.

OK -- lets test your logical consistency here. Many atheists will say a Muslim killed because of his religion; I can accept that.

...BUT...many of that same religion do GOOD things in the name of that religion as well.

My point is, if a religion can be blamed for the bad that comes from it, then logically, it can be credited with the GOOD that comes from it too, right?

Oh...don't tell me you're one of those who believe that good being done isn't due to religion, but to human nature, but that bad being done isn't due to human nature, but due to religion.

That's logically and scientifically inconsistent.

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

Atheists usually claim religion is behind all the problems in the world, but since they also believe religion is human-created, they are eventually forced to end up advocating mass murder of one form or another. Source: Vox Day, http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/09/...campaign=Feed:+blogspot/voxpopoli+(Vox+Popoli)

What a wonderful, pithy formulation of the problem. If religion is the cause of all the world’s evils, and genocide remains part of the human condition after religion is eradicated, then genocide isn’t evil. If atheists are right and all religion is a human artifact, then getting rid of religion will do nothing to solve the world’s problems. Man will merely replace his religious ideology with some sort of secular ideology, leaving man’s irrational and superstitious tendencies in tact.

Day also has recently criticized the idea that scientists are more rational than the rest of us. It’s not that “science” isn’t a rational pursuit; it’s that scientists are the weakest part of the scientific enterprise. Merely participating in the scientific enterprise does nothing to make a person more rational and less susceptible to non-rational biases. Thus, to eliminate all religions and replace it with “science” will do nothing to make people less superstitious and more rational. We will live in a culture that lacks the means that has historically been most common and effective in teaching moral values to the younger generation.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

What a wonderful, pithy formulation of the problem. If religion is the cause of all the world’s evils, and genocide remains part of the human condition after religion is eradicated, then genocide isn’t evil. If atheists are right and all religion is a human artifact, then getting rid of religion will do nothing to solve the world’s problems. Man will merely replace his religious ideology with some sort of secular ideology, leaving man’s irrational and superstitious tendencies in tact.

Day also has recently criticized the idea that scientists are more rational than the rest of us. It’s not that “science” isn’t a rational pursuit; it’s that scientists are the weakest part of the scientific enterprise. Merely participating in the scientific enterprise does nothing to make a person more rational and less susceptible to non-rational biases. Thus, to eliminate all religions and replace it with “science” will do nothing to make people less superstitious and more rational. We will live in a culture that lacks the means that has historically been most common and effective in teaching moral values to the younger generation.

QFT. :thumbsup:

 

[Retro Rob]

What a wonderful, pithy formulation of the problem. If religion is the cause of all the world’s evils, and genocide remains part of the human condition after religion is eradicated, then genocide isn’t evil. If atheists are right and all religion is a human artifact, then getting rid of religion will do nothing to solve the world’s problems. Man will merely replace his religious ideology with some sort of secular ideology, leaving man’s irrational and superstitious tendencies in tact.

Day also has recently criticized the idea that scientists are more rational than the rest of us. It’s not that “science” isn’t a rational pursuit; it’s that scientists are the weakest part of the scientific enterprise. Merely participating in the scientific enterprise does nothing to make a person more rational and less susceptible to non-rational biases. Thus, to eliminate all religions and replace it with “science” will do nothing to make people less superstitious and more rational. We will live in a culture that lacks the means that has historically been most common and effective in teaching moral values to the younger generation.

Good post.

 

[Retro Rob]

They are using religion to rationalize their behavior. Crazy people always find a way to rationalize their insanity...religion just happens to be a relatively common excuse.

I wonder if he credits religion when people love and do kind acts in the name of Jesus.

 

[John Connor]

No one read the Bible? These people are not following it. CLEARLY!

Jesus said, he who is without sin cast the first stone.

What ever fucked up religion they have, it sure as hell isn't Judeo based.

But you know, I don't bother atheist, but they bother me every time they want a cross taken down from a memorial. So you have the "separation of church and state." That means something completely different! It does not mean take a cross from a burial ground. This country was founded on judo-christain beliefs. Like it or not. Anyone hear of that little line: We are endowed by our creator? What? Punk ass atheists want to change the Declaration Of Independence now too?

 

[soulcougher73]

OK -- lets test your logical consistency here. Many atheists will say a Muslim killed because of his religion; I can accept that.

...BUT...many of that same religion do GOOD things in the name of that religion as well.

My point is, if a religion can be blamed for the bad that comes from it, then logically, it can be credited with the GOOD that comes from it too, right?

Oh...don't tell me you're one of those who believe that good being done isn't due to religion, but to human nature, but that bad being done isn't due to human nature, but due to religion.

That's logically and scientifically inconsistent.

I think both. I think religion can make people do good things and non religious people via human nature can do good things. Easy question.

 

[soulcougher73]

I wonder if he credits religion when people love and do kind acts in the name of Jesus.

Yup I credit it for both the good and the bad. 0 for 2 on trying to pigeon hole me today. Wanna go for the strike out?

 

[MajinCry]

No one read the Bible? These people are not following it. CLEARLY!

*Cough*

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel." - Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT

Of course, that doesn't strictly apply to these lads, as we're not sure of their specific religion. But the above commandment certainly gives an insight to what the Bible commands.

And before you go "BUT THAT'S OLD TESTAMENT!" the NT covenant is not in effect, as the conditions for it were outlined in Jeremiah 31:31-34

Jesus said, he who is without sin cast the first stone.

By going against the commandments, you have "sinned" against Yahweh. Yahweh's punishments for "sinners" can be found with ease.

What ever fucked up religion they have, it sure as hell isn't Judeo based.

Uh. Really? The Abrahamic religions are the most vile of religions, with each new iteration being more evil than the last.

Judaism? At least there is no eternal torture. Christianity? Well, now there is. Islam? Features even more violence and debauchery.

 

[realibrad]

What a wonderful, pithy formulation of the problem. If religion is the cause of all the world’s evils, and genocide remains part of the human condition after religion is eradicated, then genocide isn’t evil. If atheists are right and all religion is a human artifact, then getting rid of religion will do nothing to solve the world’s problems. Man will merely replace his religious ideology with some sort of secular ideology, leaving man’s irrational and superstitious tendencies in tact.

Religion is not "the" cause, but it is a cause of evils. I feel like now I must define what evil is, because I feel it has different meanings in how we use them. Evil to me is a class of bad things or thoughts people can do. I don't believe evil comes from the devil.

Genocide is evil, because of how bad it is. I would imagine you would question how I qualify bad as that is typically what most counter with. Killing off people in a genocide brings many negative things that far outweigh any possible positive. The loss of culture, bio diversity, future contributions, production ect are all losses. There is not a moral justification for those things with the argument that the people were disliked.

Man might replace religious beliefs with secular beliefs, but that will likely lead to better outcomes. Its not 100% guaranteed to make life a utopia, but it does remove some roadblocks. When people have a scapegoat for behavior that normally would not be justified, they will sometimes take it. When you remove that path, it becomes much harder to justify negative actions

Day also has recently criticized the idea that scientists are more rational than the rest of us. It’s not that “science” isn’t a rational pursuit; it’s that scientists are the weakest part of the scientific enterprise. Merely participating in the scientific enterprise does nothing to make a person more rational and less susceptible to non-rational biases.

It does not guarantee that a person will become more rational, but it helps train a person on how to be more rational. Living a life of rational inquiry will likely help a person learn how to be rational. Just like how Christians believe going to church helps them get closer to god. Practice makes perfect.

Thus, to eliminate all religions and replace it with “science” will do nothing to make people less superstitious and more rational.

This seems to contradict your previous statement. Not sure what you mean here.

We will live in a culture that lacks the means that has historically been most common and effective in teaching moral values to the younger generation.

The vast majority of what you find to be moral would simply be quantified as being utility increasing. Most of the thinks like not killing, not raping ect mean that people are more likely to invest in their futures because they dont have to worry about those things. If everybody raped, murdered, and stole then people would be less willing to invest.

I will ask you this, name something you find to be a moral/immoral thing that has nothing to do with utility or drives people to increase/decrease utility.

 

[MajinCry]

Going to chime in 'ere for a moment.

Religion is not "the" cause, but it is a cause of evils. I feel like now I must define what evil is, because I feel it has different meanings in how we use them. Evil to me is a class of bad things or thoughts people can do. I don't believe evil comes from the devil.

That's because it comes from Yahweh.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7

 

[realibrad]

Going to chime in 'ere for a moment.



That's because it comes from Yahweh.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7

Yes, evil must come from god, if you believe in god. A secular person like myself would not argue evil comes from god, because I dont believe there is a god. So for me to sue the term, I must define it in a non-religious way.

But yes, if someone believes that god created everything, then they must accept that god created evil. Something cannot be unless god created it. That is, unless they dont believe there is such a thing as evil, but a qualification of actions or thoughts, but that makes it far more complicated and seems to contradict how the bible explains evil.

 

[glenn1]

Man might replace religious beliefs with secular beliefs, but that will likely lead to better outcomes. Its not 100% guaranteed to make life a utopia, but it does remove some roadblocks. When people have a scapegoat for behavior that normally would not be justified, they will sometimes take it. When you remove that path, it becomes much harder to justify negative actions.

Why would it not just as likely be harder to justify/rationalize positive actions? I'm not seeing how religion somehow serves to suppress a powerful altruism instinct that would be unleashed if everyone professed atheism. If anything it might encourage an even more virulent "every man for himself" dystopia since logically a hedonistic lifestyle would be a strongly preferred "rational" path.

 

[Retro Rob]

But yes, if someone believes that god created everything, then they must accept that god created evil. Something cannot be unless god created it.

Car accidents cannot exist without cars, so we must accept that car manufacturers created car accidents.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Man might replace religious beliefs with secular beliefs, but that will likely lead to better outcomes.

Then how would you explain this?

 

[Retro Rob]

NVM.

 

[Retro Rob]

I think both. I think religion can make people do good things and non religious people via human nature can do good things. Easy question.

I actually wasn't trying to "catch" you...its that you've never, as far as I know, credited religion with the good that comes from it.

Good you do!