The Israeli who defends suicide bombers

[Zebo]

Etech- two wrongs don't make a right and muslim countries make no illusions they are democracies unlike israel. I lived two years in SA and was third class. Other saudis were second the royals first... Philippinos and most other foriegn workers were fouth class.. Besides, ther arn't any jews in those countries AFAIK. There is no excuse for Israel to have what is basically Jim Crow laws against Muslim israeli citizens there and only shows thier view about thier darker brother and hier zionist superity complex.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Etech- two wrongs don't make a right and muslim countries make no illusions they are democracies unlike israel. I lived two years in SA and was third class. Other saudis were second the royals first... Philippinos and most other foriegn workers were fouth class.. Besides, ther arn't any jews in those countries AFAIK. There is no excuse for Israel to have what is basically Jim Crow laws against Muslim israeli citizens there and only shows thier view about thier darker brother and hier zionist superity complex.

Really? That's what it means that Israel has Arab members in it's "parliment"? That's what it means that Israel is almost the only country in that region that allows women, and that includes of course Arab women, to vote? That's what it means that in Israel you can practice any religion you choose(take a Bible into SA sometime).

I'd like you to detail exactly what you mean and document where you found the information on those "Jim Crow" laws you refered to.

While you are at it would you like to explain what DHIMMI is?

I see racism, but it isn't the Jews that are practicing it.

 

[Siwy]

Granted, Israel is not perfect. The points you bring up are not the ones that I was addressing. While we are on the subject would you like to compare and contrast the rights of Jews or Christians in an Arab country vs. the rights of Arabs in Israel? Which is worse?

I know that Jews are discriminated in other countries, but do you really think that is a good excuse for Arab discrimination in Israel? Just think about it - if Americans are treated badly in Iran, does that make it right for Iranians to be treated badly in America? Israel is supposed to be the greatest democracy in the middle east yet they use the same tactics as Nazis did before WW2 (I'm talking about limiting education, citizenship, Police discrimination etc. not extermination....I know it might seem as an extreme analogy but remember that no analogy is perfect otherwise it wouldn't be analogy but identity 🙂 )

I'm very much against Arab terrorism but if you think about what they have to put up with in the land of their forefathers it really makes you think. I can understand Israel's excuses for killing civilians by targeting militants (of course I'm very much against it), but why do they have to limit education to the children of a different religion? This type of inequity hits Arabs where it hurts the most, their future generations and Israel knows it.

 

[magomago]

Really? That's what it means that Israel has Arab members in it's "parliment"? That's what it means that Israel is almost the only country in that region that allows women, and that includes of course Arab women, to vote? That's what it means that in Israel you can practice any religion you choose(take a Bible into SA sometime).

Iraq 😉 My mother wasn't construction foreman of Baghdad in the 70s and early 80s (before we moved here) because she was a man - and did I forget to add that we are supposed to be "shiites" How Ironic.

Might I add that rights of Sabeans and Christians were also guaranteed?

Well this is before the war 😉 After the war I think that in order to maintain power Saddam appealed to the religious majority (Islam) and that is how you got a religion deeply invloved with the government. Not to say it wasn't before (My mom would have a religion class - she would attend the one on Islam while her Christian friend attend the Christian one 😉 Oh..and my dad's best friend in college was a Christian)

However like I said..most was before the war

And thanks to others making points so I don't have to make them (and you guys brought up good points that I never thought about...learning is good 🙂 )



And I'm reading through this "Dhmimi" thing or whatever that is and wow...talk about taking things out of context and making erroneous assumptions based on extreme generalizations. Anyone can rip out a sentence from the Bible and make it look like a very wicked religion also. Is there a page with a bilbiography where the guy got his information? I'd be interested to see where it came from

I'm perplexed how the topic is Isreal and it seems that to justify what they do you must bring up Islam. But furthermore I would assume there ideas apply to extreme extremesists...and that is something which I mean. It is almost as if you take a stance that, "But that country does it too" ...which is just a form of rationalization which is a defense mechanism for the brain that is used in order to justify something questionable.

 

[etech]

magomago and Siwy

Would both of you like to document this organized 'racism' by the Jews? Yes, I compare Israel to the other countries in the region. I fully understand why you don't like that comparsion to be made. It makes Israel look so good by comparison.

If you want to talk about occupation, lets talk about Syria occupying Lebanon.

If you want to talk about keeping Palestinians in camps, lets talk about when the other Arab countries kept them there.


magomago, What is that "Dhmimi" thing or whatever that is and exactly how did I take it out of context. I only mentioned that it should be looked up. Any context that was made is yours.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: etech
magomago and Siwy

Would both of you like to document this organized 'racism' by the Jews? Yes, I compare Israel to the other countries in the region. I fully understand why you don't like that comparsion to be made. It makes Israel look so good by comparison.

If you want to talk about occupation, lets talk about Syria occupying Lebanon.

If you want to talk about keeping Palestinians in camps, lets talk about when the other Arab countries kept them there.


magomago, What is that "Dhmimi" thing or whatever that is and exactly how did I take it out of context. I only mentioned that it should be looked up. Any context that was made is yours.

What do you mean if I would like to document this organized 'racism' by the Jews? I already gave you a couple of examples of discrimination in Israel which you seem to agree with judging by your previous post, and you keep going back to your unsound excuses. It does not matter what other countries in the region do, Israel is the "only true democracy" in the region as they like to call themselves, you can't compare it to Syria or Iran or Saudi Arabia. Consider other truly democratic countries like US or Canada instead.

To put it as gently as possible - if you go through life looking up to those who are in a worse state than yourself, that must be a sad life indeed.

 

[etech]

Of course "It does not matter what other countries in the region do". You don't wish to attempt to rectify the countries with the worst human rights abuses or the worst discrimination. You just wish to point out that Israel does not treat its ArabIsraeli citizens as well as it treats its Jewish citizens. To you, its all about Israel, the human rights is not the issue, the discrimination is not the issue. Only Israel is the issue in your mind.

 

[etech]

dp

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: etech
Of course "It does not matter what other countries in the region do". You don't wish to attempt to rectify the countries with the worst human rights abuses or the worst discrimination. You just wish to point out that Israel does not treat its ArabIsraeli citizens as well as it treats its Jewish citizens. To you, its all about Israel, the human rights is not the issue, the discrimination is not the issue. Only Israel is the issue in your mind.

When you put Israel on a pedestal, yes it becomes the issue. When people like you say that Israel is beyond critisism and still fail to acknowledge its blatant shortcomings, it becomes an issue. No one's arguing that Arab countries are much worse that Israel, and that is why we don't throw billions of dollars of aid towards them and act like their bitch. If Israel was so great why have they been condemed by practically every major human rights group there is? Let's talk about something you cannot deny, the demolition militant's homes. Think about it in the context of America, considering people like you love pointing out that we need to support Israel because she's a small version of us in the middle east. If someone in the US killed a bunch of people, and got killed in the process, and this has happened many, many times in our history, do you honestly beleive it would ever cross anyone's mind to demolish their FAMILY home? Please. And we had descrimination against our own citizens as well, but that ended thanks to people like MLK. It's pathetic that you say it's ok not to critisize Israel as long as she's not as bad as her hethen neighbours. Pathetic.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Some FYI for etech and the other Israelicans in this forum:

Human Rights Watch: Israel, the Occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, and Palestinian Authority Territories

Physicians for Human Rights: Israel

Amnesty International: Israel

And this is interesting:
US Censorship Thwart's Film Highlighting Israel's Human Rights On All Major US Networks

And funny how you won't see any of the documentaries by the BBC highlighting Israel's HR violations, but you can see stuff on Iraq, Afghanistan etc, everyday on the major networks. Face it, it's not worth being labeled an Anti-Semite, so no one dares critisize Israel in any way.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: etech
Of course "It does not matter what other countries in the region do". You don't wish to attempt to rectify the countries with the worst human rights abuses or the worst discrimination. You just wish to point out that Israel does not treat its ArabIsraeli citizens as well as it treats its Jewish citizens. To you, its all about Israel, the human rights is not the issue, the discrimination is not the issue. Only Israel is the issue in your mind.

Let me understand the logic behind your argument....

If your neighbor steals a car, is it ok for you to steal a car as well? Would you say in the court of law that it is not fair for you to go to jail because your neighbor is a worse thief than you are?
Would you tell your child that it is ok to sell drugs as long as there are others doing the same?

Is that the type of logic you are using here? Is that the type of logic you use in your daily life? Really, I'm curious.

 

[Zebo]

Etech believe in pre-emtion...You can actually steal his car first if you "believe" he's going to steal your car.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Siwy

Originally posted by: etech
Of course "It does not matter what other countries in the region do". You don't wish to attempt to rectify the countries with the worst human rights abuses or the worst discrimination. You just wish to point out that Israel does not treat its ArabIsraeli citizens as well as it treats its Jewish citizens. To you, its all about Israel, the human rights is not the issue, the discrimination is not the issue. Only Israel is the issue in your mind.

Let me understand the logic behind your argument....

If your neighbor steals a car, is it ok for you to steal a car as well? Would you say in the court of law that it is not fair for you to go to jail because your neighbor is a worse thief than you are?
Would you tell your child that it is ok to sell drugs as long as there are others doing the same?

Is that the type of logic you are using here? Is that the type of logic you use in your daily life? Really, I'm curious.

Lets look at it this way, one person steals one hundred cars a week, his neighbor steals one car one car. They both belong in jail but which one being in jail would have the most effect on the crime rate. Yet you only want to complain about the guy that steals one car and don't even want to discuss the guy stealing one hundred cars. That's hypocritical on your part. No, I said long ago it isn't right for Israel to steal a car, just that it would do much more good in the world for the Arabs to first clean up their act.

LilBlinbBlahIce
You miscontrued or misunderstood everything I have posted in this thread. I don't know if you can't read or did it on purpose. Try reading my posts again. If you really don't understand what I have been saying than post that you can't understand and I will try to explain it to you in small words.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Siwy

Originally posted by: etech
Of course "It does not matter what other countries in the region do". You don't wish to attempt to rectify the countries with the worst human rights abuses or the worst discrimination. You just wish to point out that Israel does not treat its ArabIsraeli citizens as well as it treats its Jewish citizens. To you, its all about Israel, the human rights is not the issue, the discrimination is not the issue. Only Israel is the issue in your mind.

Let me understand the logic behind your argument....

If your neighbor steals a car, is it ok for you to steal a car as well? Would you say in the court of law that it is not fair for you to go to jail because your neighbor is a worse thief than you are?
Would you tell your child that it is ok to sell drugs as long as there are others doing the same?

Is that the type of logic you are using here? Is that the type of logic you use in your daily life? Really, I'm curious.

Lets look at it this way, one person steals one hundred cars a week, his neighbor steals one car one car. They both belong in jail but which one being in jail would have the most effect on the crime rate. Yet you only want to complain about the guy that steals one car and don't even want to discuss the guy stealing one hundred cars. That's hypocritical on your part. No, I said long ago it isn't right for Israel to steal a car, just that it would do much more good in the world for the Arabs to first clean up their act.

LilBlinbBlahIce
You miscontrued or misunderstood everything I have posted in this thread. I don't know if you can't read or did it on purpose. Try reading my posts again. If you really don't understand what I have been saying than post that you can't understand and I will try to explain it to you in small words.

You remind me of my 7 year old cousin; he was punished for going out onto the street after he was explicitly forbidden to do so because of the danger caused by the oncoming traffic. His only excuse was that he saw his older brother there (who was also punished). It was totally beyond his comprehension that it does not matter what others do; what he did was wrong, period. He was only 7 years old so it is understandable, but why a grown man (I assume) cannot grasp it is beyond me.

The bottom line is that the subject of this thread is Israel not Syria or Saudi Arabia. If you want to start another thread on discrimination in Arab countries go right ahead and I might join in. I'm glad that you admit Israel is a discriminatory country but going around and pointing out "but others do it too!" will take you nowhere. My cousin learned it soon after the punishment when he was only 7, I hope you can too even at this late stage 😉

 

[Siwy]

By the way etech, I'm curious what you think are the root causes of the discriminatory tactics of Israeli government.

What do you think Israeli government wants to accomplish by limiting education to non-Jewish students and what do they want to accomplish by significantly limiting spending in non-Jewish areas of Israel? Just give me a straight answer none of that "but others do it too" staff.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Siwy

Originally posted by: etech


LilBlinbBlahIce
You miscontrued or misunderstood everything I have posted in this thread. I don't know if you can't read or did it on purpose. Try reading my posts again. If you really don't understand what I have been saying than post that you can't understand and I will try to explain it to you in small words.

Say what you want about my reading abilities etech, that does not dismiss the fact that I point out facts and you point out opinion. As many others have mentioned, your "they do it too" take on dismissing Israeli behavior is childish. Why don't you respond to my post instead of just attacking me?

 

[etech]

LilBlinbBlahIce

Say what you want about my reading abilities etech, that does not dismiss the fact that I point out facts and you point out opinion. As many others have mentioned, your "they do it too" take on dismissing Israeli behavior is childish. Why don't you respond to my post instead of just attacking me?

When you put Israel on a pedestal, yes it becomes the issue.
That is your opinion and not a fact.

When people like you say that Israel is beyond critisism and still fail to acknowledge its blatant shortcomings, it becomes an issue.
That is your opinion and not a fact.

No one's arguing that Arab countries are much worse that Israel,
That is a fact.

and that is why we don't throw billions of dollars of aid towards them and act like their bitch.
That is your opinion and not a fact.

If Israel was so great why have they been condemed by practically every major human rights group there is?

Have those same groups also condemned the Palestinians terrorist groups for killing Israeli civilians?

Let's talk about something you cannot deny, the demolition militant's homes. Think about it in the context of America, considering people like you love pointing out that we need to support Israel because she's a small version of us in the middle east. If someone in the US killed a bunch of people, and got killed in the process, and this has happened many, many times in our history, do you honestly beleive it would ever cross anyone's mind to demolish their FAMILY home?

Bad analogy on your part. You are trying to compare the actions of one person vs. a group of terrorists and their actions.

Please. And we had descrimination against our own citizens as well, but that ended thanks to people like MLK. It's pathetic that you say it's ok not to critisize Israel as long as she's not as bad as her hethen neighbours. Pathetic.

Yes, the US also had discrimination and the remnants are still around. Do you think the suicide bombing and terrorist tactics of the Palestinians are a way to solve that problem in the Middle East?

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Siwy
By the way etech, I'm curious what you think are the root causes of the discriminatory tactics of Israeli government.

I would surmise that the years of terrorist tactics employed by the Palestinians has kept Israel from being as open and free for all of its citizens as it could be.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Siwy
By the way etech, I'm curious what you think are the root causes of the discriminatory tactics of Israeli government.

I would surmise that the years of terrorist tactics employed by the Palestinians has kept Israel from being as open and free for all of its citizens as it could be.

Ok...I can see how some laws and tactics were established to prevent terrorism, but how do you figure that limiting education would accomplish that. Don't you think that fully educating non-Jewish children would open up their mind a little bit more so that maybe they would see the errors of their people? To me it seems like education is the best way to fight terrorism, wouldn't you agree?

I'm still not convinced that some of the tactics that Israel's government is using is caused by terrorism but by simple antipathy towards non-Jews living in Israel. They do not want non-Jews to be as educated as Jews and they do not want them to be able to carry on at the same standard of living as Jews. In my opinion that is the best way to motivate terrorism, not abolish it.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Siwy

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Siwy
By the way etech, I'm curious what you think are the root causes of the discriminatory tactics of Israeli government.

I would surmise that the years of terrorist tactics employed by the Palestinians has kept Israel from being as open and free for all of its citizens as it could be.

Ok...I can see how some laws and tactics were established to prevent terrorism, but how do you figure that limiting education would accomplish that. Don't you think that fully educating non-Jewish children would open up their mind a little bit more so that maybe they would see the errors of their people? To me it seems like education is the best way to fight terrorism, wouldn't you agree?

I'm still not convinced that some of the tactics that Israel's government is using is caused by terrorism but by simple antipathy towards non-Jews living in Israel. They do not want non-Jews to be as educated as Jews and they do not want them to be able to carry on at the same standard of living as Jews. In my opinion that is the best way to motivate terrorism, not abolish it.

Are you saying that people need a high school diploma to know that suicide bombing someone is bad?

I agree that it is not a good idea to keep people in poverty. Look at what happened when the Arabs did it to the Palestinians. Why do you suppose that the other Arab countries kept the Palestinians in camps and would not let them integrate into their countries?

 

[Siwy]

Are you saying that people need a high school diploma to know that suicide bombing someone is bad?

That is not really what I was trying to say, people need education for many other things in order to become productive and contributing members of the society.
You still haven't answer the question. What does Israel have to gain by limiting education to non-Jewish children.

I agree that it is not a good idea to keep people in poverty. Look at what happened when the Arabs did it to the Palestinians. Why do you suppose that the other Arab countries kept the Palestinians in camps and would not let them integrate into their countries?

I'm glad that once again we can agree on something 😉 Yet, you still couldn't resist slipping in the "but they do it too!" comment, could you? 🙂

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Siwy

Are you saying that people need a high school diploma to know that suicide bombing someone is bad?

That is not really what I was trying to say, people need education for many other things in order to become productive and contributing members of the society.
You still haven't answer the question. What does Israel have to gain by limiting education to non-Jewish children.

I agree that it is not a good idea to keep people in poverty. Look at what happened when the Arabs did it to the Palestinians. Why do you suppose that the other Arab countries kept the Palestinians in camps and would not let them integrate into their countries?

I'm glad that once again we can agree on something 😉 Yet, you still couldn't resist slipping in the "but they do it too!" comment, could you? 🙂

I never said Israel has anything to gain(those are your words and ideas) nor did I imply in any way that Israel does it for gain. I think we both agreed earlier that it could be at least partially attributed to a feeling of retribution for all of the terrorist acts the Palestinians have committed over the years.

So we agree on the fact that poverty is bad and increases terrorism. Therefore increasing trade and economic opportunity for millions by opening up a country that had been closed is good and will reduce terrorism due to poverty. Interesting concept.

 

[Siwy]

I never said Israel has anything to gain(those are your words and ideas) nor did I imply in any way that Israel does it for gain. I think we both agreed earlier that it could be at least partially attributed to a feeling of retribution for all of the terrorist acts the Palestinians have committed over the years.

Well, you never said it but you were trying to excuse Israel's discriminatory laws since the beginning of this thread so I assumed you were behind the idea, if you were not I apologize. Israel is doing it for a reason, and I'm simply trying to figure out what that reason is. If they are doing it as a retribution they are just hurting themselves in the process, since they will be left with poor and uneducated minority. And no country can benefit from that.

But I don't think they do it for retribution. If they wanted to punish Palestinians for terrorism, they could simply do that, punish them. But why do it to every non-Jew (not necessarily Palestinian)? There must be more to it.

So we agree on the fact that poverty is bad and increases terrorism. Therefore increasing trade and economic opportunity for millions by opening up a country that had been closed is good and will reduce terrorism due to poverty. Interesting concept.

Well since we agree on the fact that poverty is bad and increases terrorism, I guess something should be done about it, don't you think? I mean what do you propose? Starve and kick out every non-Jew out of Israel?

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: etech
LilBlinbBlahIce

Say what you want about my reading abilities etech, that does not dismiss the fact that I point out facts and you point out opinion. As many others have mentioned, your "they do it too" take on dismissing Israeli behavior is childish. Why don't you respond to my post instead of just attacking me?

When you put Israel on a pedestal, yes it becomes the issue.
That is your opinion and not a fact.
The FACT is YOU do put Israel on a pedestal, as do most conservatives.


When people like you say that Israel is beyond critisism and still fail to acknowledge its blatant shortcomings, it becomes an issue.
That is your opinion and not a fact.
Actually no, when you have sympathizers for any group that is in the wrong it becomes a problem, remember the Nazis? Or even better, remember all the people we condemn for supposedly being "terrorist sympathizers" like the Saudis. Not saying that the Israelis are in the same league, just that they are in the wrong (in terms of the occupation) and no one in America dares aknowledge it.

No one's arguing that Arab countries are much worse that Israel,
That is a fact.
I'm sure that put a smile on your face


and that is why we don't throw billions of dollars of aid towards them and act like their bitch.
That is your opinion and not a fact.
BS, we give Israel more money than any other country and, from the early '70s, the amount we have given them would add up to about $5,700/American. I've posted links to an article outlining how much money we have thrown away on Israel in another thread. If you say we give Egypt and Jordan a lot of money, I say the only reason we do that is b/c they made peace with Israel, so once again its a result of our support for said country. Furthermore no American president has ever critisized Israel at the same level of ANY other country we have ever had a grievance with. If you are anybody in America you will be crusified as an Anti-Semite for daring to critisize any action by Israel.

If Israel was so great why have they been condemed by practically every major human rights group there is?
Have those same groups also condemned the Palestinians terrorist groups for killing Israeli civilians?
Once again, you start off with the "look at what everyone else is doing" arguement. Get over it.

Let's talk about something you cannot deny, the demolition militant's homes. Think about it in the context of America, considering people like you love pointing out that we need to support Israel because she's a small version of us in the middle east. If someone in the US killed a bunch of people, and got killed in the process, and this has happened many, many times in our history, do you honestly beleive it would ever cross anyone's mind to demolish their FAMILY home?
Bad analogy on your part. You are trying to compare the actions of one person vs. a group of terrorists and their actions.
Don't know how you can think you're debunking my comment with that statement. My point was that we won't condemn Israel for actions we would never dream about commiting ourselves. Can you fathom demolishing Timothy McVeigh's family house after the OK bombing? Or do you only consider Muslims to be terrorists? Obviously the point I was trying to make was lost on you.

Please. And we had descrimination against our own citizens as well, but that ended thanks to people like MLK. It's pathetic that you say it's ok not to critisize Israel as long as she's not as bad as her hethen neighbours. Pathetic.
Yes, the US also had discrimination and the remnants are still around. Do you think the suicide bombing and terrorist tactics of the Palestinians are a way to solve that problem in the Middle East?

No I don't, I've never supported suicide bombings. But I don't think building walls, settlements, humiliation, discrimination and collective punishment will solve the ME crisis either.