The Israel America connection? (with poll)

nemesismk2

Diamond Member
Sep 29, 2001
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I don't understand why America supports Israel as much as they do even when it puts America in a bad position globally?

Can someone explain to me why America keeps vetoing un resolutions against Israel when they are obviously in the wrong?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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Although Israel is often in the wrong, it's also the most sane of the crap hole countries in that part of the world, and the US sees a benefit to having a good reltaionship with them.

I voted NO because vetos should not even be allowed in the UN. As it is the UN is incapable of doing anything meaningful. One bit of dissension and the UN becomes paralyzed. It's grown to big for its own good and veto power is a big problem.
 

brxndxn

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2001
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Israel is obviously in the wrong?

I don't think so. I think Israel should haul off and crush Palestine. The rest of the world putting pressure on Israel is what is making this last another 1000 years. If Israel would just use the might they have bound up in its fist, Palestine would no longer be able to cry to the world like the whining pansies they are.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
Well, after years of support, Israel receives support mostly for restraining them from going too far.(sure, some can argue this, but look at what Israel does with our support -- now imagine if they had no one to worry about)
 

nemesismk2

Diamond Member
Sep 29, 2001
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Although Israel is often in the wrong, it's also the most sane of the crap hole countries in that part of the world, and the US sees a benefit to having a good reltaionship with them.

What does Israel do for America in exchange for all this support?
 

nemesismk2

Diamond Member
Sep 29, 2001
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www.ultimatehardware.net
Originally posted by: brxndxn
Israel is obviously in the wrong?

I don't think so. I think Israel should haul off and crush Palestine. The rest of the world putting pressure on Israel is what is making this last another 1000 years. If Israel would just use the might they have bound up in its fist, Palestine would no longer be able to cry to the world like the whining pansies they are.

If the UN issue a resolution against Israel then they have obviously done something wrong.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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The issue here is, "obviously in the wrong" is your opinion. Not fact.

The UN is not "god." They can, and have been very wrong.
 

earthman

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
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Either UN resolutions mean something or they don't. Part of the reason we supposedly went to war with Iraq was that it didn't follow UN resolutions, but when has Israel ever complied with them?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,101
5,640
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Originally posted by: brxndxn
Israel is obviously in the wrong?

I don't think so. I think Israel should haul off and crush Palestine. The rest of the world putting pressure on Israel is what is making this last another 1000 years. If Israel would just use the might they have bound up in its fist, Palestine would no longer be able to cry to the world like the whining pansies they are.

There is no "Palestine" to crush, which is a major part of the problem.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
The issue here is, "obviously in the wrong" is your opinion. Not fact.

The UN is not "god." They can, and have been very wrong.
Replace "UN" with "US" and I would be inclined to agree.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
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The US would not veto 90% of the resolutions proposed to condem Israel if the UN also condemned the suicide bombings and general attacks against Israeli civillians by the Palestinians in the resolutions. The US veto's the resolutions because they are entirely one sided, they condem only one party when both share the responsibility in the violence. The arab states kill any language that condemns the palestinians and that is the reason the US veto's.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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Originally posted by: brxndxn
Israel is obviously in the wrong?

I don't think so. I think Israel should haul off and crush Palestine. The rest of the world putting pressure on Israel is what is making this last another 1000 years. If Israel would just use the might they have bound up in its fist, Palestine would no longer be able to cry to the world like the whining pansies they are.

so if it happens that sometimes in the future the tables will be turned, and the Israelis have to resort to terrorism to fight for their homes while the Palestinians would be the ones destroying homes, uprooting trees, and wrecking havoc on the little infastructure that the Israelis have. Then its good for the Palestinians to know that they can count on your support.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Originally posted by: brxndxn
Israel is obviously in the wrong?

I don't think so. I think Israel should haul off and crush Palestine. The rest of the world putting pressure on Israel is what is making this last another 1000 years. If Israel would just use the might they have bound up in its fist, Palestine would no longer be able to cry to the world like the whining pansies they are.

Did you not read about World War 2 atrocities? Perhaps if you read about the things done during World War 2, and then you would come upon the Geneva Convention's purpose which is to deter things like that from happening again, you would realize why your comments are out of touch with reality. Should we be condemned to repeat history's errors, or learn from them?
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: rahvin
The US would not veto 90% of the resolutions proposed to condem Israel if the UN also condemned the suicide bombings and general attacks against Israeli civillians by the Palestinians in the resolutions. The US veto's the resolutions because they are entirely one sided, they condem only one party when both share the responsibility in the violence. The arab states kill any language that condemns the palestinians and that is the reason the US veto's.
That's a crock of poo. The US blocks Security Council resolutions b/c we are horribly biased in this conflict. Instead of siding with justice we side with Israel. If the US would propose a REAL balanced resolution (condemning the brutal, decades long occupation and expansionist Likud regime while also condemning the immoral attacks on civilians executed by terrorist factions) then there would be overwelming support. But naturally such a resolution should also include a plan of action to "protect" Palestinians from abuse by the occupying power . . .
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Let's not forget that Israel itself was created by a UN resolution, so to dispute the UN resolutions is like you're illegitimatizing the existence of Israel.

We can't pick and choose what UN resolutions should be 'valid' based on our particular agenda. It is a world body which is supposed to vote like a democracy. It's like you're one day praising a democracy wen your favorite candidate wins an election, then the next time around you're calling the same democracy into question when your favorite candidate loses.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,101
5,640
126
Originally posted by: rahvin
The US would not veto 90% of the resolutions proposed to condem Israel if the UN also condemned the suicide bombings and general attacks against Israeli civillians by the Palestinians in the resolutions. The US veto's the resolutions because they are entirely one sided, they condem only one party when both share the responsibility in the violence. The arab states kill any language that condemns the palestinians and that is the reason the US veto's.

IIRC the UN has issued statements condemning Palestinian actions, but that is Immaterial. The UN is an organization that deals with Nations, not Groups. It would be like the FDA condemning Enron Accounting practices.
 

Zephyr106

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
1,309
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
The issue here is, "obviously in the wrong" is your opinion. Not fact.

The UN is not "god." They can, and have been very wrong.

"That der damn liberal UN" "Them" "They" "Them"

Oh wait, the UN isn't a forum for nations to debate and pass resolutions of mutual agreement?

Zephyr
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
because the un is political. its just a minimally selective forum of countries. 1+ billion muslims in countries some of which are full of oil push through many a resolution against the 6 million of israel. a huge market, a huge influence that never even atleast equally condemns the actions of the palestinians.
 

paulandreas

Banned
May 17, 2004
111
0
0
america will always be pro white, and pro jewish, its just natural to side with the side more akin to your own.

but giving support to irrational atrocities even does israel a disservice, let alone america in its war on extremism.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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"because the un is political. 1+ billion muslims in countries some of which are full of oil push through many a resolution against the 6 million of israel. a huge market, a huge influence that never even atleast equally condemns the actions of the palestinians."

This is a popular argument in favor of the vetos. The fact is that a lot of these resolutions are unanimous but for the US veto. Some would like to paint a picture where only Muslims are opposed to Israeli actions, but this is far from the case. There has been worldwide support for these measures.

It is theoretically possible that the US is vetoing these resolutions on reasonable grounds but as with other situations where the US goes against world opinion, they have been shown to be wrong. The real explanation for the vetos is that our political system has a big problem with special interests. It's not just a jewish thing, the same goes for cubans, corporations, and even more honorable interest troups.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
because the un is political. 1+ billion muslims in countries some of which are full of oil push through many a resolution against the 6 million of israel. a huge market, a huge influence that never even atleast equally condemns the actions of the palestinians.

Some wild accusations there...

1. UN is wrapped around the finger of the worldwide muslim population
2. These muslims hate Israel, and they work in concert to get resolutions passed which only condemns Israel.

Hmm... I have some quick questions... how was Israel formed? what allowed us to attack iraq in '91 ? what allowed sanctions to be placed on iraq ?
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
just remember the outrage when israel destroyed saddams nuclear reactor. now we pretty much thank them:p

Anti-Semitism in the United Nations
By Morris B. Abram
Chairman, United Nations Watch
(February 1998)*

The title "Anti-Semitism in the United Nations" was carefully chosen. It does not charge the UN, an indispensable world organization, with anti-Semitism. Rather, it suggests that there is a considerable anti-Semitic component behind the policies pursued there and expressed without challenge (except by the United States) in its fora.

Emergency Special Sessions of the United Nations General Assembly are rare. No such session has ever been convened with respect to the Chinese occupation of Tibet, the Indonesian occupation of East Timor, the Syrian occupation of Lebanon, the slaughters in Rwanda, the disappearances in Zaire or the horrors of Bosnia. In fact, during the last 15 years they have been called only to condemn Israel.

Whereas Arab states have traditionally used UN fora to demonize and isolate Israel (for example, they routinely attempt to deny Israel its credentials), they now believe they enjoy "Western" support which emboldens them.

The latest Emergency Special Session, called to address Israeli construction at the Har Homa site, set in motion steps to de-legitimize Israel and to bring it to its knees. During its July meeting, the Session considered a resolution that requested member states "not to allow any import of goods produced and manufactured in occupied Palestinian territories, including Jerusalem" -- a virtual boycott and collective sanctions against the state.

During its November meeting, it took a further step towards making Israel an outlaw state. In a vote of 139 to 3 with 13 abstentions, it set in motion the eventual convening of states parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention, which grew out of the Nazi occupation of Europe. Thus, that Convention will now be employed against the people who were Hitler's victims. The resolutions of the November meeting requested that the Swiss government, as the depository of this Geneva Convention, convene by February 1998 a meeting of experts to initiate the process of condemning Israel for violating the Convention. This was done despite the admonition of Switzerland's UN Observer that such action could damage the peace process and politicize international humanitarian law.

As a result of such bias, the UN has lost credibility. It is no surprise that the Oslo agreements were negotiated outside of, and contained no role for, the UN. Though Israel has been the subject of aggressive wars in 1948, 1967 and 1973 and the victim of countless terrorist attacks, the Security Council and the General Assembly have never once censured its assailants. As Thomas M. Franck, Professor of International Law at New York University, has written, "...the UN is a place of convoluted realities. The Assembly's majority has also done its best to achieve an anti-Israeli politicization of the Secretariat."

It is not just an issue of anti-Israel bias; it is difficult to ignore an anti-Jewish bent in many instances. For 50 years the UN has condemned virtually every conceivable form of racism. It has established programs to combat racism and its multiple facets -- including xenophobia -- but had consistently refused to do the same against anti-Semitism until 1993, and then, only under intense US pressure.

Instead, the General Assembly established two Special Committees and two "special units" in the Secretariat devoted exclusively to Israeli practices, costing millions of dollars yearly. These produce anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist pamphlets, booklets, papers and films, which are even distributed in the UN's six official languages to school children around the world.

The intense hostility that Israel faces in the UN and the anti-Semitic reverberations are illustrated by two events that occurred at the Commission on Human Rights in 1991 and 1997. During the 1991 session, the Syrian Ambassador repeated the Damascus Blood Libel that Jews killed Christian children to use their blood to make Matzoth. The Western democracies could not be stirred to challenge this age-old anti-Semitic libel (which the Ottoman Sultan as the ruler of Syria, denounced when it surfaced in the 1840s). It took intense US pressure to procure a challenge to this libel in the record, and then only months after the Syrian representative emphasized to the Commission, "it's true, it's true, it's true."

On 11 March 1997, the Palestinian representative charged, in a chamber packed with 500 people including the representatives of 53 states and hundreds of non-governmental organizations, that the Israeli Government had injected 300 Palestinian children with the HIV virus. Despite the repeated interventions of the Governments of Israel and the US, and UN Watch, this modern Blood Libel stands unchallenged and unrefuted on the UN record. No appropriate action by any UN body or official has been taken to date.

The Chairman of the Commission on Human Rights, a Czech, agreed to place on the record his letter to the Ambassador of Israel, sharing his "concern as to the charge made" against Israel -- "an allegation made without evidence, on the basis of a newspaper article ... proved completely false." The Chairman reneged on his agreement after he was called to task by a delegation of Arab Ambassadors and received no support from other regional groups -- including Western Europe.

Blood Libels are vicious and persistent carriers of anti-Semitism. The "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" were but a fiction of the Czarist police in the 1890s. Yet they are a well of anti-Semitic pollution -- published today in thousands of copies world-wide. The Damascus Blood Libel was raised 150 years later in the Commission on Human Rights. The latest PLO Blood Libel bears the imprimatur of the UN record and has yet to be removed by consolidated action of the Commission or by any UN agency or official on the public record. (Nor was there any rebuke in 1992 to a UN document circulated in the Commission by the PLO observer, which stated that Israelis "celebrating ...Yom Kippur, are never fully happy even on religious occasions unless their celebrations, as usual, are marked by Palestinian blood.")

The treatment of Israel in the UN is often dismissed as realpolitik -- the power of Arab numbers -- and recently, as a reaction to Israel's Likud government and Prime Minister Netanyahu. Yet even during the hopeful days of the Rabin/Peres peace negotiations there were the usual anti-Israel resolutions passed each year in the UN General Assembly and 5 in the Commission on Human Rights.

Since the Oslo accords, 259 Israelis have been killed and 5000 injured by Palestinian terror attacks. During the same period, 34 resolutions deploring Israel were passed at the UN, but not one against the terror attacks. The unique treatment of Israel cannot be explained on purely political grounds. Though anti-Semitic canards can go unchallenged in the UN, the mere reference in the 1997 Commission on Human Rights to an allegedly blasphemous reference to Islam, by a UN expert and from an academic source, brought a rebuff by consensus by the Chair, and the deletion of the offending sentence.

The viciousness with which Israel is attacked, and the reluctance of even democratic states to defend Israel or to accord it the same latitude for mistakes and wrongs that it freely and reciprocally accords other states, has a special quality and origin.

There is ample justification for the conclusion of Professor Anne Bayefsky of York University, Canada, writing of the UN Human Rights system: "It is the tool of those who would make Israel the archetypal human rights violator in the world today. It is a breeding ground for anti-Semitism. It is a sanctuary for moral relativists. In short, it is a scandal."

The infamous "Zionism is Racism" resolution was passed in 1975 when Yitzhak Rabin was Prime Minister. Describing the circumstances of the passage of the resolution, a representative in the chamber stated that "hatred was crawling on the floor." Although the resolution was rescinded in 1991, anti-Semitism in UN fora is still a force to be reckoned with, bearing in mind that 25 Member States voted against repealing the resolution and 13 abstained.

Anti-Semitism is not dead. Although anti-Semitic incidents have declined and a multi-cultural acceptance has produced wider tolerance in many states including the US, a 2000-year-old virus has mutated, and lives on, often in a disguised form. And the existence and achievements of the Jewish state in an area of relative backwardness stimulate anti-Semitism and furnish a respectable cover. Once anti-Semitism had a religious basis but, with the declining significance of religion in the West, anti-Semitism in church circles has relatively little standing as such.

Hitler exploited anti-Semitism with deadly consequences for Jews and the world. But racial anti-Semitism has been tabooed after the Holocaust and the Nuremberg trials. Now the existence of the state of Israel permits anti-Semitism to assume a political form, safe from challenge as intolerance or racism. How many times one hears: "I like Jews but I can't stand Zionism," or "I have nothing against Jews, but I don't like Israel." The existence and achievements of Israel offer a visible and irresistible target for dormant anti-Semitic feelings aroused by a focus on Israel's mistakes and misdeeds, which are characteristic of every state including the US.

Some Arab states appear to have now found a way to accomplish a purpose that the unrepealed PLO Charter, pledging the destruction of Israel has not achieved.

Wars with Israel have been disasters and are much too problematic to repeat. The attempt to bring Israel to its knees through sanctions and boycotts at the Security Council faces a US veto. However, these Emergency Special Sessions of the UN General Assembly, in which all but 3 states have joined in a collective denunciation, show the possibility of a slow but sure de-legitimization of Israel and the hope of some for its eventual strangulation.

Israel stands at the precipice of being treated at the UN as South Africa during apartheid. It is certainly not comparable, considering that Israeli Arabs are citizens, vote and sit in the Knesset. The challenge to Israel's right to exist as an equal state may soon move from the PLO Charter to the UN. The adjourned Emergency Special Session of the General Assembly is a harbinger of worse to be attempted.

The world faces a dilemma. The UN exists, and there is no present alternative. As Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, former US Ambassador to the UN warned long ago, "the UN is a dangerous place."

*Article originally published December 1997.
Source: UN Watch.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
It is so so sad that any that is anti-Israel or anti-zionism is labelled anti-semitism. It really just amounts to censorship and personal insults. I think zionism is wrong but I have jewish friends and am not anti-semetic.

Instead of resorting to name-calling, Israel supporters would be better off addressing the issues head on.
 

hokiezilla

Member
Mar 9, 2003
181
0
0
Originally posted by: nemesismk2
Originally posted by: Amused
The issue here is, "obviously in the wrong" is your opinion. Not fact.

The UN is not "god." They can, and have been very wrong.

I didn't say the UN is god but I trust their judgement all the same!



I'm curious to know, since you trust the UN so much, do you believe them when they said that Iraq had WMD?