The Islamic Thread 2

Sultan

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Feb 21, 2002
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With the growing number of Muslims on this thread, I thought it would be a good time to redo an earlier thread with the same title, specially after reading through the Free Quran Hot Deal thread.

Unfortunately, the number of bigoted members has also increased, so I'd request you to please not contribute.

For the Muslim members, please answer the questions posed with relevant Quranic/Sunnah-Hadith injunctions and historical context together with present day interpretations.

For those who wish to learn more about the faith and clear misconceptions, please ask freely and fairly.

All appropriate responses will be merged with original post so that the answers to common questions can easily be looked over.

The first thread of the same title was hopefully a minor success in terms of better understanding for some members.

Thank you.

Edit 1:

Question 1
Ok, I'll go, in the event this is actually a forum for serious discussion...

What is the actual religious rule about treating women? Many Muslim countries have what I would consider a less than respectful attitude (from my American point of view) towards women, yet I have been told that is a country tradition and not part of the Muslim faith. However, the countries in question seem to defend their customs with religion. So which is it?

Reply 1
This is a very broad topic. I will attempt to answer a few objections raised by the western world.
HeadScarf/Burqah/Hijab
Islamic law regarding the dressing code for women is by the following injunction:

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their zeenah (charms, or beauty and ornaments) except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimar (veils) over their bosoms and not display their zeenah except to their husbands, their fathers .... and that they should not strike their feet so as to draw attention to their hidden zeenah (ornaments). (24:31-32)"

"O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and the believing women that they should draw over themselves their jilbab (outer garments) (when in public); this will be more conducive to their being recognized (as decent women) and not harassed. But God is indeed oft-forgiving, most merciful. (33:59)"

"And know that women advanced in years, who no longer feel any sexual desire incur no sin if they discard their thiyab (outer garments), provided they do not aim at a showy display of their zeenah (charms or beauty). But it is better for them to abstain (from this); and God is all-hearing, all-knowing. (24:60)"

These verses pertain to the modesty a Muslim woman should display. Men are also encouraged to maintain modesty:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and God is well acquainted with all that they do.24:31"

Please ask for other issues and I will attempt to explain. If you feel the above is insufficient, I will expand. The verses above are taken from the site: MBLUSA. You can refer to it also for further information.

Question 2
What are the laws of Islam?
Is there a list, sort of like the 10 commandments Christians have? I'm curious because it's come up when dealing with the Iraqi Constitution. Some here seem to believe that using the laws of Islam is a bad thing so I'd like to see why they might say that. I'm thinking they are just bigots but I'd like to know for sure.

Reply 2
Islam is a guideline for life. Islamic law cannot be defined in 1 sentence, paragraph or page. It covers every aspect of life. I will try to define the sources of Islamic Law.

The first source of Islamic Law is the Quran which is regarded by Muslims as the Divine word of God through Gabriel to Mohammad (S.A). The actions and sayings of Mohammad (S.A) make up the Sunnah and Hadith respectively, which constitutes the second source of Islamic Law. The third source is Ijma, which means Consensus of Opinion, of scholars who are learned in the the Quran and Sunnah/Hadith. The fourth source of Islamic Law is Qiyas, or analogy, which is basically a personal interpretation when clear guidelines are not present or not understood.

The laws are hierarchial in nature, the primary sources are the Quran and Sunnah/Hadith, Ijma must be made in accordance with the primary sources and Qiyas also cannot contradict Quran and Sunnah/Hadith or Ijma.

Unfortunately, the Ijma part has stagnated considerably over the past century or so as very few good scholars are recognized or present to give rulings based on the Quran and Sunnah for the present times.

The Quran says regarding this issue:
004.059
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

Question 3
WHy does your Koran tell you to kill me because I will not convert to Islam? Or do you just choose to ignore that part. o_0

Reply 3
The Quran tells me no such thing. I cannot just kill a non-Muslim if he/she refuses to convert. Please provide evidence for such a claim.

Question 4
What kind of punishment does one receive for engaging in homosexual acts?

Reply 4
If a person engages in homosexual acts in private, he/she does not recieve any punishment in this world according to Islamic Law. Islam is strictly against homosexuality and a person committing this act will be punished in the Hereafter. This is in line with the Torah/Biblical story of Prophet Lot (A.S) and the nation of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Historically the punishment has been less severe compared to its Abrahamic counterparts: Judaism and Christianity. The Qur'an states that if a person commits the sin they can repent and save their life, though there are hadiths that later prescribe the death penalty. Early Islamic cultures, especially ones where homosexuality was entrenched into their Pagan culture were renowned for their cultivation of a homosexual aesthetic. They reconciled their new religion using a hadith ascribed to Muhammad, ?He who loves and remains chaste and conceals his secret and dies, dies a martyr?.

A person found guilty of such an act by confession or through the eyewitness testimony of FOUR witnesses will recieve punishment. The main madhabs/fiqhs of Islam prescribe different punishment for a person found guilty of homosexuality. The majority ruling is that a homosexual should be punished as an adulteror, if he/she is married or as zina if he/she is unmarried. The punishments are stoning to death for the former and 100 whips/lashers for the latter.

Some information for this reply is taken from Wikipedia. You can find more elaborate explanation on homosexuality and Islam here.

One of the references to homosexuality in the Quran is below:

026.165
YUSUFALI: "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,
PICKTHAL: What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males,
SHAKIR: What! do you come to the males from among the creatures

026.166
YUSUFALI: "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"
PICKTHAL: And leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are froward folk.
SHAKIR: And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives? Nay, you are a people exceeding limits.

026.167
YUSUFALI: They said: "If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!"
PICKTHAL: They said: If thou cease not, O Lot, thou wilt soon be of the outcast.
SHAKIR: They said: If you desist not, O Lut! you shall surely be of those who are expelled.

026.168
YUSUFALI: He said: "I do detest your doings."
PICKTHAL: He said: I am in truth of those who hate your conduct.
SHAKIR: He said: Surely I am of those who utterly abhor your

Question 5
Is it acceptable for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim? Is it acceptable for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim?

Reply 5
The Quran mentions marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims in at least these two places:

005.005
YUSUFALI: This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

002.221
YUSUFALI: Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.
PICKTHAL: Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember.
SHAKIR: And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

Hence, it is not permissible for a Muslim to marry a polytheist/idol worshipper. Furthermore, only a Muslim male is allowed to marry a non-Muslim, and that only when the non-Muslim woman is from the People of the Book, i.e., a Jew or a Christian.

Question 6
How are non-'people of the book 'supposed to be treated? Are they treated any differently than 'people of the book'?

Reply 6
Under an Islamic government, they are treated equally. Apart from a Muslim male not being permitted to marry a non-'People of the Book' woman, I am not aware of any further distinction. One exception is that all symbols of polytheism, idolatory is to be removed from the areas around Mecca and Medina, or rather the greater part of the Arabian peninsula.

009.028
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

Question 7:
Why is the concept of 'Kaffir' so important to Muslims? And why is it such a derogatory word - almost an abuse at times towards non muslims? What clause in the Quran allows this lack of tolerance for others

For those who don't know, Kaffir literally means non believer but is used as a vile invective.

Reply 7:
Kafir in Arabic actually means denier or concealer, which holds negative connotations. In Islam, the term is giver to polytheists, aetheists, rather, those who are not of the People of the Book.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali's commentary: Kufr, Kafara, Kafir, and derivative forms of the word, imply a deliberate rejection of Faith as opposed to a mistaken idea of Allah or faith, which is not consistent with an ernest desire to see the truth. Where there is sch desire, the Grace and Mercy of Allah gives guidance. But that guidance is not efficacious when it is deliberately rejected, and the possibility of rejection follows from the grant of free will. The consequence of the rejection is that spiritual faculties become dead or impervious to better influence.

However, Muslims are instructed to not use the label with ease or at will. Labelling someone as Kafir is basically saying he/she will go to Hell, and that determination can only be made by God.

In Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) the term amounts to the equivalent of Christian excommunication.

Read more here: Kafir.

Question 8:
Sorry but you need to provehow they are out of context rather then just screaming that they are. You are just another muslim that does not know what your Koran says and practice it because it is a "good way of life."

Kill non-believers
4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Reply 8:
Please see the complete ACCURATE translation of the verses below followed by the context of the revelations. I hope the non-Muslims would also note that I can also easily take out numerous verses from other religious books out of context to ridicule that religious teachings/basis, and more often than not, there is no explanation/context to clarify such verses. Anyways...

004.084
YUSUFALI: Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
PICKTHAL: So fight (O Muhammad) in the way of Allah Thou art not taxed (with the responsibility for anyone) except thyself - and urge on the believers. Peradventure Allah will restrain the might of those who disbelieve. Allah is stronger in might and stronger in inflicting punishment.
SHAKIR: Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except In relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.

004.085
YUSUFALI: Whoever recommends and helps a good cause becomes a partner therein: And whoever recommends and helps an evil cause, shares in its burden: And Allah hath power over all things.
PICKTHAL: Whoso interveneth in a good cause will have the reward thereof, and whoso interveneth in an evil cause will bear the consequence thereof. Allah overseeth all things.
SHAKIR: Whoever joins himself (to another) in a good cause shall have a share of it, and whoever joins himself (to another) in an evil cause shall have the responsibility of it, and Allah controls all things.

004.086
YUSUFALI: When a (courteous) greeting is offered you, meet it with a greeting still more courteous, or (at least) of equal courtesy. Allah takes careful account of all things.
PICKTHAL: When ye are greeted with a greeting, greet ye with a better than it or return it. Lo! Allah taketh count of all things.
SHAKIR: And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet with a better (greeting) than it or return it; surely Allah takes account of all things.

004.087
YUSUFALI: Allah! There is no god but He: of a surety He will gather you together against the Day of Judgment, about which there is no doubt. And whose word can be truer than Allah's?
PICKTHAL: Allah! There is no Allah save Him. He gathereth you all unto a Day of Resurrection whereof there is no doubt. Who is more true in statement than Allah?
SHAKIR: Allah, there is no god but He-- He will most certainly gather you together on the resurrection day, there is no doubt in it; and who is more true in word than Allah?

004.088
YUSUFALI: Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
PICKTHAL: What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.
SHAKIR: What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.

004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

004.090
YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
PICKTHAL: Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.
SHAKIR: Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

I hope all can understand the translation and I encourage you to read the the above verses. Please do so to get an understanding of the religious teachings, rather than go to inciteful websites which take off one verse and present it as evidence.

If you are unable to undersand the translation, I will further attempt to edit the answer to this question to give the exact historical context of the above revelations.

Question 9
Why is it OK to kill apostates? I'm not sure why killing someone for changing religions is acceptable.

Reply 9
The short answer for this question is Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam. As with all laws, there exists many sub-divisions of the punishment with relation to the extent of the crime.

The hadiths prescribing punishment for hadith are in Sahih Bukhari, and can be found here: Sahih Bukhari - Dealing with apostates

The hadiths below are used to justify the Islamic law of death penalty:

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Please read all hadiths in the link before nitpicking on the hadiths above.

The imposition of the punishment can only be carried out if proven in the Islamic court, or by confession.

As to the varying degrees of punishment, if a Muslim male commits apostasy without coercian and publically, the punishment is death penalty. If a Muslim female commits the act, her punishment is life imprisonment. The laws further go on to describe the punishments for minors, adults, mentally handicapped, drunkards, etc, etc.

Some scholars disagree on the current interpretation based on the context in which the hadiths were mentioned. They regard Apostasy as not just conversion out of Islam but also the betrayal of the Islamic nation.

However, the majority ruling is that a Muslim male IS liable for capital punishment if he willfully and publically commits apostasy, as that is considered treason against the Islamic nation. Treason can be defined as betrayal of trust or disloyalty, and the trust of belief in Islam is amongst the top most covenants of the Islamic faith.

Read more here and here.

Question 10
Originally posted by: PG
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/facadeprint.htm#facts

scary stuff

How much of this is true?

I picked the first verse quotation which on your given website just says: Men are superior to women.

Reply 10
002.228
YUSUFALI: Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
PICKTHAL: Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

I hope it is evident to all non-biased individuals what a gross misrepresentation of the verse has been given on the aforementioned website.

Al-Tabari said the best explanation is that of Ibn `Abbas: "The daraja mentioned by Allah Most High here is the exemption, on the man's part, of some his wife's obligations towards him and his indulgence towards her, while he is fully obligated to fulfill all his obligations towards her, because the verse came right after {And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness}. Hence Ibn `Abbas said: 'I would not like to obtain all (astanzif) of my right from her because Allah Most High said {and men are a degree above them}.'"

Since men are by Islamic Law obligated and are responsible of protecting and providing (food, shelter, love) to their partners, a divorce would lead to the female member getting the short end of the bargain. The verse above is more or less specifically targetted to the issue of divorce.

In another place, the Quran says:
004:034
MUHAMMAD ASAD: Men shall take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the righteous women are truly the devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has ordained to be guarded.

The bounties are interpreted to be strength.

Regardless, in many examples, men hold advantage over the opposite gender, according to all religions, and according to Islam. First and foremost is that Adam was created before Eve :) Anyways, that put aside, according to Islam, men hold advantages in holding political positions, imamat (leading prayers), physical aspects, etc.

More information here: Link

Question 11:
Is it better to be right among your brethren or do right and be cast out?

Reply 11:
Thanks for asking and thanks to the person who PMed me with clarification.

This is a very interesting question and can be looked at from multiple viewpoints.

It is ESSENTIAL to do what is morally right, even though that course of action will cause you to be discarded by your local gang/family/society.

And since Islamic Law is the considered by Muslims to be the the A to Z of morals, following its teachings and rituals and laws is ESSENTIAL for Muslims, even if it means they become an outcast in the society/family they are in. Many Muslim converts undergo these hardships here in the States, and I commend their courage. I got the easier of the deal, I was born Muslim, and chose to continue following the religion after learning more of it and learning other religions.

Interestly, Quran itself has a quote regarding this issue (or something to that effect):
007.003
YUSUFALI: Follow (O men!) the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition.
PICKTHAL: (Saying): Follow that which is sent down unto you from your Lord, and follow no protecting friends beside Him. Little do ye recollect!
SHAKIR: Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow guardians besides Him, how little do you mind

So the Quran itself enjoins the Muslims not to follow friends or people around you, but follow the teachings of God Himself.

From the other perspective, it can be argued to not commit acts of violence against innocent people, even if being encouraged by country/society/family/gang, as it is contrary to the teachings of Islam. Here, protectors/guardians can mean anything from family to the governmment.

Does the above help? If no, I will try to elaborate further.

Question 12:
Why do women not have a right to divorce their husband without his permission?

Reply 12:
Let me start off by saying divorce should be the last resort between a couple and should only be exercised after all attempts at reconciliation and arbitration has failed.

A Quranic verse pertaining to divorce are as below (there are quite a number):

004.035
YUSUFALI: If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.
PICKTHAL: And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware.
SHAKIR: And if you fear a breach between the two, then appoint judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they both desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them, surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.

Others can be found at the following site: Divorce in Islam

A woman may seek divorce from her husband. In this case, she needs to go to the court which will act as an arbitrator to resolve the dispute. The court can award the divorce, termed Khula if her husband refuses to give her the divorce. More information about Khula can be found here.. This last site does not mention the recourse to the courts, which would make the information incomplete on the website. Dr. Zakir Naik also gives a brief comment on the rights of Women on this page, including the Khula: Link

An instance was reported at the time of the Prophet when a woman came to him saying that although her husband was a good man and she had no complaint against his treatment, she disliked him greatly and could not live with him. The Prophet directed that she should return to the husband a garden which he had given to her as her dowry, as the condition of her divorce.

Question 13:
I'm very curious..Although I'm also from the muslim faith. I might need some clarity on these folks:
- Mary (marium)
- Messiah (Jesus)
- Moses?
- Ibrahim (Abraham)
- David and the other gospel guys.

Reply 13:
It will take many pages to fit the answer of your above question. Hence, I will limit my answer to Mariam (A.S) and Isa (A.S). If you so wish, ask for the others next time and I will provide the answers.

From the following source: Jesus and Virgin Mary in Islam.

Jesus and The Virgin Mary in Islam
By Juan Galvan

Many people may be surprised that Muslims love Mary, the mother of Jesus. In the Quran, no woman is given more attention than Mary. Mary receives the most attention of any woman mentioned in the Quran even though all the Prophets with the exception of Adam had mothers. Of the Quran's 114 chapters, she is among the eight people who have a chapter named after them. The nineteenth chapter of the Quran is named after her, Mariam. Mariam means Mary in Arabic. The third chapter in the Quran is named after her father, Imran. Chapters Mariam and Imran are among the most beautiful chapters in the Quran. Mary (peace be upon her) is the only woman specifically named in the Quran. An authentic Haddith states that the Prophet said, "The superiority of 'Aisha to other ladies is like the superiority of Tharid (i.e. meat and bread dish) to other meals. Many men reached the level of perfection, but no woman reached such a level except Mary, the daughter of Imran and Asia, the wife of Pharaoh." (Bukhari 4.643). Indeed, both Mary and Pharoah's wife are an example (Quran 66:11-12). The Virgin Mary plays a very significant role in Islam. She is an example and a sign for all people.

In the Quran, Mary's story begins while she is still in her mother's womb. The mother of Mary, said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate into Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things." (Quran 3:35).

She wanted the baby in her womb to serve only the Creator. When Mary was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!" (Quran 3:36). She had expected her baby to be a male child who would grow up to be a scholar or religious leader. However, God had a better plan. God is the best of planners. Quran 3:36 continues "?and God knew best what she brought forth- 'And no wise is the male like the female. I have named her Mariam, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from Satan, the Rejected.'" Mariam literally means "maidservant of God."

In Quran 3:37, God states that He accepted Mary as her mother had asked. He made Mary grow in purity and beauty. She was assigned to the care of a priest named Zacharias. This is interesting considering few women were given this opportunity.

"Every time that he entered (her) chamber to see her, he found her supplied with sustenance. He said: 'O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?' She said: 'From God. for God provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure.'" (Quran 3:37). Upon hearing Mary's answer, "There did Zakariya pray to his Lord, saying: 'O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!'" (Quran 3:38).

Although his wife was barren and he was very old, God blesses Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth with John. John is known as "John the Baptist" in the Bible. Zacharias was skeptical after the angels announced John's birth. The response to his skepticism was "Doth God accomplish what He willeth" (Quran 3:40). John would become a noble and chaste Prophet as the angels had stated (Quran 3:39).

The Quran discusses Mary's miraculous conception as well. "Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." (Quran 19:16-17). After seeing the angel, she said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God." (Quran 19:18). The angel Gabriel responded: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a pure son." (Quran 19:19). Her next response is expected. She asked: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" (Quran 19:20). The Angel Gabriel said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith, 'That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us.' It is a matter (so) decreed." (Quran 19:21). Mary then becomes pregnant.

Jesus is a Prophet and a Messenger. A Messenger is a Prophet who is given revelation from God. Whereas the Torah was revealed to Moses, the Gospel was revealed to Jesus. Messengers are a mercy, guidance, and sign from God. "And God will teach him (Jesus) the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel, and (appoint him) as a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message):

'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave. And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I bring the dead into life, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe. (I have come to you) to attest the Torah which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you. I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" (Quran 3:48-51).

God appointed messengers to help us answer questions such as: What happens after I die? What's right and wrong? Does a supernatural world exist? What's the purpose of my creation? Jesus was calling people to the worship of only God. Only by God's leave was Jesus able to perform miracles.

"When Jesus found unbelief on their (the disciples) part he said: 'Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.'" (Quran 3:52).

After conceiving Jesus, Mary went away with the baby to a distant place (Quran 19:22). "And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree. She cried (in her anguish): 'Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten!'" (Quran 19:23). "But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): 'Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.'" (Quran 19:24-26).

Joseph, the magi, and manger are not mentioned in the Quran. God was Mary's only Provider. Muslims do not accept the virgin birth of Jesus as evidence of Jesus' divinity. "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: 'Be.' And he was." (Quran 3:59). Adam's creation was even more miraculous because he was born without father and mother. When she brings the baby to her people, they said: "O Mary! truly a strange thing has thou brought! O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" (Quran 19:27-8). Mary then points to the baby. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" (Quran 19:29). Then a miracle occurs that is not mentioned in the Bible. In defense of his mother, Jesus said: "I am indeed a servant of God. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He hath made me) kind to my mother, and not overbearing or unblest; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!" (Quran 19:30-33).

The virgin birth of Jesus was a sign. "And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples." (Quran 21:91). All previous Prophets confirmed the oneness of God, Tawheed. Whereas the Holy Trinity is the fundamental concept of God in Christianity, Tawheed is the fundamental concept of God in Islam. God exists independent of religion. Muslims do not believe in the concept of Holy Trinity (Quran 5:73). God is not Jesus (Quran 5:72). On the Day of Judgment, when Jesus is asked if he had called people to worship him and his mother as two gods, Jesus will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." (Quran 5:116).

People should not worship any of God's creation, including Jesus and Mary. We must not assign any of God's creation His divine attributes and characteristics. "He is God the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (Qur'an 59:24).

Although God can do all things, He only does things that are consistent with His fundamental nature. Begetting a son is not consistent with God's magnificent nature (Quran 19:92, Quran 19:35). Consistent with His fundamental nature is forgiveness. Although Adam and Eve could no longer live in the Paradise, God forgave Adam and Eve for their sin after they sincerely repented (Quran 2:35-37). We are responsible for our own deeds and will not be punished for the deeds of another person (Quran 53:38-42). Therefore, Muslims reject the doctrine of original sin. Although Adam and Eve were punished, God would still be merciful by sending Guidance to mankind. "We said: 'Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.'" (Quran 2:38).

When people hear the term Islam, they naturally tend to think of the organized religion of Islam which started in the 7th century CE with prophet Mohammed. However, in Arabic the word Islam comes from the root "salema" which means peace, purity, submission, and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means peace and purity achieved by submitting to the will of God and obedience to His law. Muslims are those who submit. Muslims believe that all those who submitted to the will of God in line with divine revelation received before the advent of formal Islam with prophet Mohammed, were themselves also Muslim. So coming from this understanding, Muslims believe that we are part of one continuing faith community with Jesus and Mary. Mary, Jesus, and the disciples were all "Muslims" because they submitted to God.

"Behold! the angels said: 'O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee - chosen thee above the women of all nations. O Mary! worship thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down.'" (Quran 3:42-43).

Another Prophet with a message similar to Jesus' would later be born in Arabia in the sixth century. He also called people to the worship of only God. Although unable to read and write, Muhammad (peace be upon him) would recite beautiful verses of the Quran as they were revealed to him. The Quran is a beautiful miracle, a sign, a mercy, a warner, and a guidance for all people. Muhammad is the last Prophet from a line of Prophets that included Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (peace be upon them). All Prophets were models for righteous living. Muhammad's sunnah, his sayings, example, and traditions, is also considered revelation. His sunnah is expressed in various books of Haddith.

"Indeed in the Messenger of God you have a good example to follow for him who hopes for (the Meeting with) God and the Last Day, and remembers God much." (Quran 33:21).

God created all people to worship Him and to live life based on His teachings and guidance. "And hold fast, all together, by the Rope which God (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude God's favor on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth God make His Signs clear to you that ye may be guided." (Quran 3:103).

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost." (Quran 3:85).

We accomplish this by bearing witness to God's oneness and accepting His final revelation in our daily lives. "O ye who believe! Fear God as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam." (Quran 3:102).

There is none worthy of worship but God, and Muhammad is His messenger.

End Note: While writing about the Virgin Mary, I wanted to avoid as much confusion as possible among non-Muslims. My article was written with a non-Muslim audience in mind. Consequently, I used English terms and figures familiar to Christians rather than those in Arabic. For example, "Isa" means Jesus in Arabic, and "Yahya" means John in Arabic. I also avoided using terms of respectability commonly used among Muslims such as SWT, PBUH, SAWS, RA, and AS. I apologize if I have offended anyone.

Question 14:
What do you use as Gods personal name?
YHWH? Jehovah?
Allah is simply "God" in arabic?
I hear he has 10k names but they were all titles.

Reply 14:
Allah is the name God goes by according to the Quran. Since the Quran is believed to be the direct word of God, and He referred to Himself as Allah, that would be His name.

Allah has 99 attributes. The attributes can be found here. It would be impractical of me to list out the Asma-ul-Husna (The most beautiful names of Allah) in this post.

Question 15:
Coming from a Christian background I'm interested in the Muslim thoughts towards sin. What I mean is this; is man inherently good? or inherently evil? In accordance with this notion does the concept of grace exist in the muslim faith?

Reply 15:
In contrast to Christian teachings, Islam teaches us man is inherently good. This can be found in the 7th Chapter of the Quran, verses 23-29 translated below:

007.023
YUSUFALI: They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
PICKTHAL: They said: Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If thou forgive us not and have not mercy on us, surely we are of the lost!
SHAKIR: They said: Our Lord! We have been unjust to ourselves, and if Thou forgive us not, and have (not) mercy on us, we shall certainly be of the losers.

007.024
YUSUFALI: (Allah) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time."
PICKTHAL: He said: Go down (from hence), one of you a foe unto the other. There will be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a while.
SHAKIR: He said: Get forth, some of you, the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.

007.025
YUSUFALI: He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."
PICKTHAL: He said: There shall ye live, and there shall ye die, and thence shall ye be brought forth.
SHAKIR: He (also) said: Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and from it shall you be raised.

007.026
YUSUFALI: O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition!
PICKTHAL: O Children of Adam! We have revealed unto you raiment to conceal your shame, and splendid vesture, but the raiment of restraint from evil, that is best. This is of the revelations of Allah, that they may remember.
SHAKIR: O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful.

007.027
YUSUFALI: O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.
PICKTHAL: O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that he might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not.
SHAKIR: O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.


007.028
YUSUFALI: When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?"
PICKTHAL: And when they do some lewdness they say: We found our fathers doing it and Allah hath enjoined it on us. Say: Allah, verily, enjoineth not lewdness. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?
SHAKIR: And when they commit an indecency they say: We found our fathers doing this, and Allah has enjoined it on us. Say: Surely Allah does not enjoin indecency; do you say against Allah what you do not know?

007.029
YUSUFALI: Say: "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere as in His sight: such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return."
PICKTHAL: Say: My Lord enjoineth justice. And set your faces upright (toward Him) at every place of worship and call upon Him, making religion pure for Him (only). As He brought you into being, so return ye (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Say: My Lord has enjoined justice, and set upright your faces at every time of prayer and call on Him, being sincere to Him in obedience; as He brought you forth in the beginning, so shall you also return.

007.030
YUSUFALI: Some He hath guided: Others have (by their choice) deserved the loss of their way; in that they took the evil ones, in preference to Allah, for their friends and protectors, and think that they receive guidance.
PICKTHAL: A party hath He led aright, while error hath just hold over (another) party, for lo! they choose the devils for protecting supporters instead of Allah and deem that they are rightly guided.
SHAKIR: A part has He guided aright and (as for another) part, error is justly their due, surely they took the Shaitans for guardians beside Allah, and they think that they are followers of the right

A Muslim believes that human beings enjoy an especially high ranking status in the hierarchy of all known creatures. Man and woman occupy this distinguished position because they alone are gifted with rational faculties and spiritual aspirations as well as powers of action. Man and woman are not a condemned race from birth to death, but dignified beings potentially capable of good and noble achievements.

A Muslim also believes that every person is born Muslim. Every person is endowed by Allah with the spiritual potential and intellectual inclination that can make him a good Muslim. Every person's birth takes place according to the will of Allah in realization of His plans and in submission to His commands. Every person is born FREE FROM SIN. When the person reaches the age of maturity and if he is sane, he becomes accountable for all his deeds and intentions. Man is free from sin until he commits sin. There is no inherited sin, and no original sin. Adam committed the first sin, but he prayed to Allah for pardon and Allah granted Adam pardon. (taken from here.)

I am unsure what you mean by grace? If you mean whether God is forgiving according to Islam, then yes. The very first verse of the Quran says, "In the name of Allah, the most Beneficient, the most Merciful." Hope this helps.

Question 16:
How do Muslims treat those who lived their whole life without knowledge of Islam? Can they gain entrance into "Heaven" (not sure what it is called for Muslims)? This is probably not a whole lot of people these days but not too long ago would have been more prominent.

Reply 16:
The Quran says:
002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Obviously a person who is not aware of the message at ALL will not be held accountable for not following Islam. The Quran mentions the Pagans as an example:

009.006
YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
PICKTHAL: And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

Additionally, the determination of whether a person goes to Jannah (Heaven) or Jahunnum (Hell) cannot be made by man; only by Allah (swt).
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Sultan
For those who wish to learn more about the faith and clear misconceptions, please ask freely and fairly.

Exactly what "clear misconceptions" do you speak of???

'clear the misconceptions'
Some can be found in the following thread:
Link
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Sultan
For those who wish to learn more about the faith and clear misconceptions, please ask freely and fairly.

Exactly what "clear misconceptions" do you speak of???

'clear the misconceptions'
Some can be found in the following thread:
Link

rgreen83
Senior Member

Posts: 538
Joined: 02/05/2003

I think many could use a reality check by reading an historical account of the crusades from the 11th to 16th centuries, the most religiously intolerant times known to man.

Guess who they were attacking?

Islam predominately.
=====================================

Interesting, did not know that but I am not surprised especially with the starting of a phoney war.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Ok, I'll go, in the event this is actually a forum for serious discussion...

What is the actual religious rule about treating women? Many Muslim countries have what I would consider a less than respectful attitude (from my American point of view) towards women, yet I have been told that is a country tradition and not part of the Muslim faith. However, the countries in question seem to defend their customs with religion. So which is it?
 

ShadesOfGrey

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2005
1,523
0
0
What are the laws of Islam?
Is there a list, sort of like the 10 commandments Christians have? I'm curious because it's come up when dealing with the Iraqi Constitution. Some here seem to believe that using the laws of Islam is a bad thing so I'd like to see why they might say that. I'm thinking they are just bigots but I'd like to know for sure.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
so why are women treated so terribly in these muslim countries?

is there anything in the Quran that they rely upon to use as an excuse?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
so why are women treated so terribly in these muslim countries?

is there anything in the Quran that they rely upon to use as an excuse?

You stole my question ;)
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: raildogg
so why are women treated so terribly in these muslim countries?

is there anything in the Quran that they rely upon to use as an excuse?

You stole my question ;)

didnt read your Q! :)

... plz dont take it personally :sun:
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
What are the laws of Islam?
Is there a list, sort of like the 10 commandments Christians have? I'm curious because it's come up when dealing with the Iraqi Constitution. Some here seem to believe that using the laws of Islam is a bad thing so I'd like to see why they might say that. I'm thinking they are just bigots but I'd like to know for sure.

tried to answer above. Please elaborate if insufficient answer.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Ok, I'll go, in the event this is actually a forum for serious discussion...

What is the actual religious rule about treating women? Many Muslim countries have what I would consider a less than respectful attitude (from my American point of view) towards women, yet I have been told that is a country tradition and not part of the Muslim faith. However, the countries in question seem to defend their customs with religion. So which is it?

if you could please provide examples, i can explain better?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
What are the laws of Islam?
Is there a list, sort of like the 10 commandments Christians have? I'm curious because it's come up when dealing with the Iraqi Constitution. Some here seem to believe that using the laws of Islam is a bad thing so I'd like to see why they might say that. I'm thinking they are just bigots but I'd like to know for sure.


Moses actually brought the 10 Commandments down from the mountain hundreds and hundreds of years before Jesus walked the Earth.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Sultan
dmcowen674

I did not understand your question/post?

I guess you don't follow the U.S. folly into Iraq from where you are???

Umm, that has what to do with this topic? and I'm in the United States.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: raildogg
so why are women treated so terribly in these muslim countries?

is there anything in the Quran that they rely upon to use as an excuse?

I don't blame the men, I blame the women for allowing themselves to be treated so badly.

If enough of them fought against it men would succumb.

Women is man's weakness.


 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
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Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Why is it OK to murder apostates?

Simple answer: It is not ok to murder apostates.

OK, I'll rephrase. Why is it OK to kill apostates? I'm not sure why killing someone for changing religions is acceptable.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
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Are there any clauses that say that women must be submissive to men in any form, similar to how some people quote from the bible?
 

Corbett

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
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WHy does your Koran tell you to kill me because I will not convert to Islam? Or do you just choose to ignore that part. o_0
 

ShadesOfGrey

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2005
1,523
0
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
What are the laws of Islam?
Is there a list, sort of like the 10 commandments Christians have? I'm curious because it's come up when dealing with the Iraqi Constitution. Some here seem to believe that using the laws of Islam is a bad thing so I'd like to see why they might say that. I'm thinking they are just bigots but I'd like to know for sure.


Moses actually brought the 10 Commandments down from the mountain hundreds and hundreds of years before Jesus walked the Earth.

And? It doesn't change the fact that Christians today use them as a sort of "law" to live by. Anyway, this is an Islam thread and I was only using it as an example to get the meaning of my question across.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
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Originally posted by: Corbett
WHy does your Koran tell you to kill me because I will not convert to Islam? Or do you just choose to ignore that part. o_0

I don't believe that it says that if you're a Christian or Jew...but what does it say about non-'people of the book'?