The Iraqi prison situation is horrible . . .

[fjord]

Originally posted by: X-Man
fjord . . .

Upon further research it would seem I shouldn't have used that quote.

In fact, the entire Winter Soldiers Investigation was a lie. It was inspired by Mark Lane's 1970 book entitled Conversations with Americans, which claimed to recount atrocity stories by Vietnam veterans. This book was panned by James Reston Jr. and Neil Sheehan, not exactly known as supporters of the Vietnam War. Sheehan in particular demonstrated that many of Lane's "eye witnesses" either had never served in Vietnam or had not done so in the capacity they claimed.

Nonetheless, Sen. Mark Hatfield inserted the transcript of the Winter Soldier testimonies into the Congressional Record and asked the Commandant of the Marine Corps to investigate the war crimes allegedly committed by Marines. When the Naval Investigative Service attempted to interview the so-called witnesses, most refused to cooperate, even after assurances that they would not be questioned about atrocities they may have committed personally. Those that did cooperate never provided details of actual crimes to investigators. The NIS also discovered that some of the most grisly testimony was given by fake witnesses who had appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans. Guenter Lewy tells the entire study in his book, America in Vietnam.

http://www.nationalreview.com/owens/owens200401270825.asp

So in retrospect, Kerry is not only a self-professed war criminal, he lied before Congress, too. I guess that makes him one up on Clinton, eh?

This national review guy is blowing grade A smoke up your A$$ and anyone else who is easily mislead.

"In fact, every word that Kerry spoke then has been shown to be true in an abundance of testimony. Even now, new revelations pour out. For example, the Toledo Blade just won the Pulitzer Prize for unearthing the story of an army company that went on a seven-month rampage in Vietnam, routinely killing peasants, burning villages, cutting off the ears of corpses. Troops in the field can hardly engage in such conduct over a period of months without the knowledge and at least tacit approval of higher authority."

No digital cameras back then--and not many cameras period in the middle of a battleground.

As I said before--big difference between battleground violence and prison violence away from the battleground.

 

[HappyPuppy]

Originally posted by: conjur
Kerry was acting on orders. Similar things were done in the Civil War. Also, Kerry was on the battlefield, not working in a U.S.-controlled prison.

The UCMJ does not allow any soldier to commit atrocities or break the law, EVEN UNDER ORDERS! Do you understand that? If he is telling the truth then he should be brought to justice.

Just in case you think I'm a Bushie, I can't stand him. He has done irreparable harm to the U.S.A. and I would like to see him pilloried along with his entire administration.

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: X-Man
What happened at Abu Graib is truly deplorable. No one can argue against that.

Why isn't Kerry's behavior in the war being painted with the same brush as the MP's at the prison?

"?I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others, in that I shot in free fire zones, fired .50-caliber machine [gun] bullets, used harass-and-interdiction fire, joined in search-and-destroy missions, and burned villages."

- John Kerry, testifying before Congress after returning from Vietnam.

Gary Nolan is looking better and better every day . . .

Because it happened in a war long gone. He cannot undo what he has done, but this is happening now, and basically one of the main reasons was to get rid of a terrifying Dictator, not to continue torture in prisons. And in many situations it seems that the whole Bush administration is denying faults rather than correcting them. For me to gain some confidence in the Bush Administartion, Rumsfeld would have to resign. It might or might not be a valid demand, but that's how I see it.

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: leeboy

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur
Kerry was acting on orders.

So were the Nazis. They still hung from the gallows at Nuremburg.

:roll:

Again, apples and oranges. The Jews killed in the concentration camps were killed systematically, in a Nazi-controlled prison. That was not on the battlefield.

Was Kerry torturing helpless prisoners? No.

No, he was shooting civilians and burning their houses down.

As were many of us who served there. A lot of those "civilians" were armed and didn't think twice about putting a bullet in our heads. Again, like you could care less to hear but I will say it as well, we were FOLLOWING ORDERS. Do you know the penalty for disobeying a direct order? War is hell guy, but from the posts of many so called "informed" members of this board, it is obvious that the closest you have ever gotten to serving your country is watching the Army v. Navy game on TV.

You guys can come up with something better than to keep trying to bash his service record, can't ya?


:roll:

The "following orders" defense is null and void and has been for a long time. If you follow an illegal or immoral order you are just as culpable under the UCMJ as the person giving it. It is your duty and lawful responsibility to disobey any unlawful order. Granted, the battlefield or any other similar situation does not lend itself well to determining whether an order is lawful or not but other situations would. For instance a brig or a prison where there was no immediate life or death situation.

Based on what info I have gathered I have no doubt that "orders" were given that at least started what has been seen in those pictures. If I was sitting the court martials the "following orders" defense would hold no water with me except for maybe - maybe - the most junior enlisted.

 

[OrganizedChaos]

don't worry it won't happen again while were there. DoD is shutting off GIs internet privlages to keep any more photos from coming out

 

[conjur]

http://www.drudgereport.com/rcpp.htm

A furious President Bush has demanded to see all photos and videos showing abuse of Iraq detainees, a senior White House source said late Sunday.

"The president was blindsided by the first TV images, he will not be blindsided again," the source, who demanded anonymity, explained to the DRUDGE REPORT.

The president has instructed Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to present him with him all known images that could further deepen the crises.

Monday editions of the NEW YORKER feature photos of a dog attacking a naked Iraqi detainee at Abu Ghraib prison.

President Bush was aware of the photo, the top source claims.

The White House is preparing for more fallout, and leaks from lawmakers.

The Pentagon is considering the possibility of showing the unseen material to members of Congress.

"It's clear the moment the evidence is sent to the Congress, we will see a new feeding frenzy in the media."

 

[DoubleL]

Originally posted by: Gaard
Its interesting how just 2 weeks ago the neocons were calling Kerry a liar. Are you neocons saying you now believe Kerry and the many other decorated heroes that testified?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No I stick with what I said, I know Kerry lied and the many decorated heroes that testified for him if you remember was proved to be lying and most were never in the military, The few that was was never in vietnam, I still say the few that did this hurt the real soldiers and shamed there self's, It would not make me feel any better if I could say just by Kerry's own works he did worse even if he did, I see no use to Bring Kerry into this

 

[burnedout]

Monday editions of the NEW YORKER feature photos of a dog attacking a naked Iraqi detainee at Abu Ghraib prison.

Intimidation using dogs at Abu Ghraib

Meanwhile, a story about a dog handler who conducted business the right way at Abu Ghraib

And, a story of a detention facility in Iraq operated correctly in Iraq.

CAMP BLACK JACK, Iraq ? Just after Sgt. 1st Class Douglas Bawden took over as warden of 29 Palms ? a 1st Cavalry Division detention facility ? he found himself processing four Iraqis arrested in connection with a rocket-propelled grenade attack.

The April 6 attack in Ashula, outside Baghdad, killed Sgt. Gerardo Moreno, 23, of Terrell, Texas.

Moreno wasn?t just any soldier. He was Bawden?s fellow noncommissioned officer from 1st Cav?s Company C, 1st Battalion, 5th Cavalry Regiment.