The Iraqi prison situation is horrible . . .

[XMan]

What happened at Abu Graib is truly deplorable. No one can argue against that.

Why isn't Kerry's behavior in the war being painted with the same brush as the MP's at the prison?

"?I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others, in that I shot in free fire zones, fired .50-caliber machine [gun] bullets, used harass-and-interdiction fire, joined in search-and-destroy missions, and burned villages."

- John Kerry, testifying before Congress after returning from Vietnam.

Gary Nolan is looking better and better every day . . .

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: X-Man
What happened at Abu Graib is truly deplorable. No one can argue against that.

Why isn't Kerry's behavior in the war being painted with the same brush as the MP's at the prison?

"?I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others, in that I shot in free fire zones, fired .50-caliber machine [gun] bullets, used harass-and-interdiction fire, joined in search-and-destroy missions, and burned villages."

- John Kerry, testifying before Congress after returning from Vietnam.

I've been waiting for someone to ask this question I'd like to see how kerry would answer that. You think the press will ask him? Any wagers?

CkG

 

[conjur]

Kerry was acting on orders. Similar things were done in the Civil War. Also, Kerry was on the battlefield, not working in a U.S.-controlled prison.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: conjur
Kerry was acting on orders. Similar things were done in the Civil War. Also, Kerry was on the battlefield, not working in a U.S.-controlled prison.

Then it is "OK" because he was on the battlefield?
Isn't he supposed to report these sorts of attrocities immediately?

CkG

 

[conjur]

He was following orders. If you watch that full video of him, he says he didn't realize it was against the Geneva Convention until *afterward*.

And, you know what happens to someone who doesn't follow orders, esp. on the battlefield.

Says a lot for those in command in the Pentagon, and the administration, back then. Very similar to the current situation.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: conjur
Kerry was acting on orders.

So were the Nazis. They still hung from the gallows at Nuremburg.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur
Kerry was acting on orders.

So were the Nazis. They still hung from the gallows at Nuremburg.

:roll:

Again, apples and oranges. The Jews killed in the concentration camps were killed systematically, in a Nazi-controlled prison. That was not on the battlefield.

Was Kerry torturing helpless prisoners? No.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur
Kerry was acting on orders.

So were the Nazis. They still hung from the gallows at Nuremburg.

:roll:

Again, apples and oranges. The Jews killed in the concentration camps were killed systematically, in a Nazi-controlled prison. That was not on the battlefield.

Was Kerry torturing helpless prisoners? No.

No, he was shooting civilians and burning their houses down.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: conjur
And, you know what happens to someone who doesn't follow orders, esp. on the battlefield.

They get removed. Which is worse - commiting the attrocities he says he participated in - or getting removed?
Hmmm....

CkG

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur
Kerry was acting on orders.

So were the Nazis. They still hung from the gallows at Nuremburg.

:roll:

Again, apples and oranges. The Jews killed in the concentration camps were killed systematically, in a Nazi-controlled prison. That was not on the battlefield.

Was Kerry torturing helpless prisoners? No.

No, he was shooting civilians and burning their houses down.

Because we didn't know who was communist sympathizer and who wasn't. I'm not saying what Kerry did was honorable. Far from it. But it was on the battlefield, where lives were at stake. The Iraqi prisoners were not threats. They were in PRISON! They were HELPLESS! And for our troops to rape young boys, beat unarmed prisoners almost to death, piss on them, etc. is disgusting.

 

[Bonesdad]

No, he was shooting civilians and burning their houses down.

I think the point here is that Kerry was trying to STOP these atrocities in Vietnam....he may have partaken in them, but he tried to correct the situation later.

In respect to the soldiers in Iraq...unless they were acting under orders, they should be stripped of their US citizenship and exiled from the US

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur
Kerry was acting on orders.

So were the Nazis. They still hung from the gallows at Nuremburg.

:roll:

Again, apples and oranges. The Jews killed in the concentration camps were killed systematically, in a Nazi-controlled prison. That was not on the battlefield.

Was Kerry torturing helpless prisoners? No.

No, he was shooting civilians and burning their houses down.

Because we didn't know who was communist sympathizer and who wasn't. I'm not saying what Kerry did was honorable. Far from it. But it was on the battlefield, where lives were at stake. The Iraqi prisoners were not threats. They were in PRISON! They were HELPLESS! And for our troops to rape young boys, beat unarmed prisoners almost to death, piss on them, etc. is disgusting.

Another quote . . .

"(They) personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, (blew) up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."

John Kerry, 4/23/71

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: conjur
He was following orders. If you watch that full video of him, he says he didn't realize it was against the Geneva Convention until *afterward*.

Big fat Lie for Kerry, right there. Geneva Convention--------required knowledge for officers..

Nope, must have been the killer weed..

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur

Because we didn't know who was communist sympathizer and who wasn't. I'm not saying what Kerry did was honorable. Far from it. But it was on the battlefield, where lives were at stake. The Iraqi prisoners were not threats. They were in PRISON! They were HELPLESS! And for our troops to rape young boys, beat unarmed prisoners almost to death, piss on them, etc. is disgusting.

Another quote . . .

"(They) personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, (blew) up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."

John Kerry, 4/23/71

How about the full context of that quote?

 

[AnImuS]

there all liars.

Hang them all

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: Bonesdad
No, he was shooting civilians and burning their houses down.

I think the point here is that Kerry was trying to STOP these atrocities in Vietnam....he may have partaken in them, but he tried to correct the situation later.

In respect to the soldiers in Iraq...unless they were acting under orders, they should be stripped of their US citizenship and exiled from the US

Ah yes, another "equal rights" advocate, I see.

While the "enlightened" left bitches, snivels and screams at the top of their lungs about fair and equitable treatment for murderers, pedophiles, rapists and other freaks, they wish not to extend the same privilege to our soldiers.

Absolutely disgusting.

 

[fjord]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur

Because we didn't know who was communist sympathizer and who wasn't. I'm not saying what Kerry did was honorable. Far from it. But it was on the battlefield, where lives were at stake. The Iraqi prisoners were not threats. They were in PRISON! They were HELPLESS! And for our troops to rape young boys, beat unarmed prisoners almost to death, piss on them, etc. is disgusting.

Another quote . . .

"(They) personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, (blew) up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."

John Kerry, 4/23/71

How about the full context of that quote?

Its interesting how just 2 weeks ago the neocons were calling Kerry a liar. Are you neocons saying you now believe Kerry and the many other decorated heroes that testified?

The second point is more subjective and subtle.

The acts of violence performed while at war, are much different than those acts performed on prisoners away from the battlefield.

The true war criminals are those who set the policy. We all know that, no matter how innocent we play this game. The BS flows freely today.
---
Kerry's subsequent words in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 23, 1971, still have the power to startle, in our time of general disorientation and muted speech, with their brave candor. He described the wrong done to the Vietnam veterans but did not fail also to discuss the wrongs they had committed. "I would like," he said, "to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.... They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country." He added, "We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation"--invoking Thomas Paine's description of the soldiers at Valley Forge. And he said, referring to the policy that had led to these crimes, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

 

[XMan]

fjord . . .

Upon further research it would seem I shouldn't have used that quote.

In fact, the entire Winter Soldiers Investigation was a lie. It was inspired by Mark Lane's 1970 book entitled Conversations with Americans, which claimed to recount atrocity stories by Vietnam veterans. This book was panned by James Reston Jr. and Neil Sheehan, not exactly known as supporters of the Vietnam War. Sheehan in particular demonstrated that many of Lane's "eye witnesses" either had never served in Vietnam or had not done so in the capacity they claimed.

Nonetheless, Sen. Mark Hatfield inserted the transcript of the Winter Soldier testimonies into the Congressional Record and asked the Commandant of the Marine Corps to investigate the war crimes allegedly committed by Marines. When the Naval Investigative Service attempted to interview the so-called witnesses, most refused to cooperate, even after assurances that they would not be questioned about atrocities they may have committed personally. Those that did cooperate never provided details of actual crimes to investigators. The NIS also discovered that some of the most grisly testimony was given by fake witnesses who had appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans. Guenter Lewy tells the entire study in his book, America in Vietnam.

http://www.nationalreview.com/owens/owens200401270825.asp

So in retrospect, Kerry is not only a self-professed war criminal, he lied before Congress, too. I guess that makes him one up on Clinton, eh?

 

[leeboy]

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: X-Man

Originally posted by: conjur
Kerry was acting on orders.

So were the Nazis. They still hung from the gallows at Nuremburg.

:roll:

Again, apples and oranges. The Jews killed in the concentration camps were killed systematically, in a Nazi-controlled prison. That was not on the battlefield.

Was Kerry torturing helpless prisoners? No.

No, he was shooting civilians and burning their houses down.

As were many of us who served there. A lot of those "civilians" were armed and didn't think twice about putting a bullet in our heads. Again, like you could care less to hear but I will say it as well, we were FOLLOWING ORDERS. Do you know the penalty for disobeying a direct order? War is hell guy, but from the posts of many so called "informed" members of this board, it is obvious that the closest you have ever gotten to serving your country is watching the Army v. Navy game on TV.

You guys can come up with something better than to keep trying to bash his service record, can't ya?


:roll:

 

[Gaard]

Its interesting how just 2 weeks ago the neocons were calling Kerry a liar. Are you neocons saying you now believe Kerry and the many other decorated heroes that testified?

 

[0marTheZealot]

Hey it's better than that draft dodger Bush was. What exactly was he doing during Vietnam again? Oh yea, snorting coke and driving drunk with Dick Cheney.

 

[conjur]

Nationalreview.com?


BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

That's worse than Spewsmax!!

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: X-Man
What happened at Abu Graib is truly deplorable. No one can argue against that.

Why isn't Kerry's behavior in the war being painted with the same brush as the MP's at the prison?

"?I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others, in that I shot in free fire zones, fired .50-caliber machine [gun] bullets, used harass-and-interdiction fire, joined in search-and-destroy missions, and burned villages."

- John Kerry, testifying before Congress after returning from Vietnam.

Gary Nolan is looking better and better every day . . .

Hey, if you got problem with soldiers' behavior during war, you should have bigger problem with people who started those wars. After all, those people are the one who should've carefully evalute the consequences of a war, and get the right people to conduct a war in right way. You know where the buck stops, the desk of LBJ and Nixson.

Same thing with this war in Iraq, you know where the buck should stop. And do not confuse the issue with Kerry, he saw the problem in Vietnam and stood up against the wrong doers. He should be commended for his honesty and the courage to speak up when he sees something wrong.

 

[Red Dawn]

If I were a Republican and a Bush apologist I would embrace this argument as a reason to vote for the Dub as Kerry's faults are easier to highlight than the Dub's success as President.

 

[earthman]

Kerry did his duty in Vietnam to the best of his judgement and ability. The fact that the entire war was wrongly conducted and badly managed, and that the US Army had severe problems with morale and behavior among its troops is not Kerry's fault. When he realized it was wrong, he said so. But he wasn't in charge of the war, and his complaints, like the complaints of many others, would have been ignored. To their credit, Rumsfeld, Myers, and Bush have all been quick to admit the events at Abu Ghurayb and elsewhere were wrong, but only after the situation blew up in their faces. They still hold ultimate responsibility, because they were in charge, and they started and prosecuted this unfortunate war. George Bush needs to accept responsibility as commander-in-chief, instead of letting Rumsfeld crash and burn in his place.